Speks

This text is typically revered by those who are KJV only and TR only. In essence we are told that the TR and KJV came about by divine preservation so it follows that this text is inspired. Following the logic of this position it can be argued that the Comma Johanneum is identical to the original words penned by the author of 1st John. Citing Daniel Wallace on this issue is sure to aggravate more than a few onlyists, some of whom may accuse the respected scholar of concealing “the actual evidence... to further mislead the unsuspecting saints”, etc. I’m not sure why Mr Wallace would do that such is his consistent dedication to the true preservation of God’s Word, but his argumentation can be read here: https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8#_ftn2 https://bible.org/article/comma-johanneum-and-cyprian In my view, for what it’s worth, there are no significant “ramifications of this in people's understanding of the Word”. Evidence for the Comma Johanneum is underwhelming. If the added text clashed badly with the balanced fullness of Scripture teaching we should be concerned, but it doesn’t.

Hello Dennis. This software is very useful. I downloaded the free software earlier this year and looked at more realistic options but took it no further. I see at the moment the Logos 8 Fundamentals package is available for $50. I'm guessing I'd have to add 2 or 3 specific publications to round that off, but it seems decent value and would be a real asset to those who need a solid background for teaching and sharing generally. Think I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

There is a subtle religiosity that snakes its way through the Church. It's ironic that the security of salvation can make some people careless and vulnerable. Years ago while thinking about how severely God views unbelief, with my mind full of Scripture texts and notes I’d jotted down, I tried to express my impressions in a short essay. It may be useful to someone, although I'm not teacher. What struck me most was how deeply genuine believers need to despise the impact of unbelief and sin. We are God’s temple – His Spirit lives within us. Everything in and of ourselves, and all that’s contrary to faith and righteous living, can be addressed by His Spirit’s work within us. Without Him we can do nothing. He wants to divide us so we can recognise what comes from Him and what deceptively comes from self. Scripture teaches us that no one grasps the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. If you are a true believer you have within the Spirit Who is from God, so that you may know the things freely given to you by God. It is this knowing that can change us. When we willingly walk with God He causes growth and empowers us to identify and suppress unbelief and sin. In believing and gladness it is a day by day personal journey of obedience and commitment. “...if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13, ESV). __ The Danger In Unbelief For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised… we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Hebrews 10:36, 39, NASB Those who have genuine faith, who have been born again by God’s Spirit, will be spiritually rich when they grasp the truths of God’s Word and obediently heed them. Under God’s rule the believer is fit for His purposes when he puts his hand to the plough and refuses to look back. God expects those who come to Him to be obedient and fully committed from their hearts, with their minds fixed on Christ. They serve Him each day in the newness of Life that flows continually from the Holy Spirit. In Him they find perfect freedom and love. They keep a tight grip on their confidence until the very end. They can rejoice in a fulfilling hope that leads to a heavenly inheritance that will never fade away. Believers are characterised by the fullness of Christ if they continue to walk in the truth and in the righteous instructions they heard from their first day with Him. They continually take part in His life only if they firmly hold on to their first experience of Him, which was revealed through the truth of the gospel message. They are to remain in the things they have learned and become assured of. Only in this way can they continue to share in all He has for them. Those who are enlightened by God’s truths have taken part in His Word and in the gift of salvation. They are partners with the Holy Spirit; they are His companions. They hold in high regard the power of the world that is to come. While those who believe in Christ can freely enjoy the unlimited goodness and favour of God, they must also reflect on His loving discipline and unyielding severity. Believers know from Scripture and experience that they always have the potential for sin. They understand they can turn to God for full forgiveness at any time. However, what will happen to those who knowingly disobey Him and continue to do what they please? What is God’s attitude to open rebellion and to those who have abandoned the Lordship of Christ, who by all appearances have believed “in vain”? Many escape the sin and corruption of the world when they turn to Christ. Through God’s truth they recognise Christ as Lord and Saviour. But sadly, in time they once again get tangled up in the base ways of the Devil’s world. They turn away from the clear instructions God gave them. In the end they are in a worse state than when they first acknowledged Christ in their lives. It would have been better if they had never heard the truth in the first place. God punishes those who willingly disobey and ignore His ways. There will be no way to escape His retribution if they pay no attention to His Word and the fullness of His perfect salvation. They will deserve His judgement and punishment. Unbelief is a wickedness He must address. Those who turn to Him are warned against rebelling and living by their own rules. All those who believe are called to continually encourage and implore one another not to be hardened against Him because of the deceitfulness of sin. If professing believers fall away, it is impossible to bring them back to real repentance for their sins and rebellion. They cannot be renewed again because they effectively crucify the Son of God another time, bringing His name into disrepute. By their behaviour and choices they expose Him to shame and public disgrace. If they continue sinning in this way after having understood the truth that is in Christ, there can no longer be a legitimate and complete sacrifice for their godless behaviour. In God’s eyes they walk all over His Son. They demean the precious blood of Christ by which they were set apart for God and His service. They have insulted the Spirit of grace. Because of this they face a fearful expectation of God’s judgement by which He utterly ruins His enemies eternally. God will pass judgement on them righteously. He alone can repay. He will avenge sins with perfect justice. It is a terrifying thing to be thrown into the hands of the only living and holy God. Therefore, when we consider how seriously God deals with unbelief and rebellion, and that this world will suddenly come to an end, what kind of people should we be in holy conduct and godliness? Are we among those who shrink back from God and His Truth and suffer a conscious destruction that will never end? Are we close “to being cursed”? Or are we those who believe all the way through to the final saving of our souls? Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1st Corinthians 10:12, NASB “…fear Him...” Matthew 10:28

Believers have never known when the day of the Lord will be, so the most important question is: What sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness? (See 2nd Peter 3:11.)

Well, the bottom line is application — thinking about God's Word carefully is what we all agree on. Peoples' alleged experiences shouldn't be used to confirm Scripture. Is it possible this can happen because a passage of Scripture was familiar to them in the first place? An overemphasis on visions and out-of-body experiences typically works to draw attention to those who experience them. It virtually becomes the centre of a 'ministry' perhaps, or a book that's heavily promoted. Such experiences in Scripture, genuinely coming from God, will glorify the Father, magnifying Christ and His work. In themselves such experiences are never the focus of attention. Getting the balance is important. There are those who go way too far in the other direction, which doesn't fairly reflect scriptural truth, in my opinion.

In what way do you think it matters that this is not a parable? It is certainly of interest that two proper names are mentioned, but that in itself is no good reason to see this passage as anything other than a parable. Relating important truths through parables was a distinctive feature of Christ’s teaching. There are no convincing reasons to conclude that this isn’t one of Christ’s parables. Is your position a common view among Bible students, commentators and scholars? Some would prefer to push the case for it not being a parable because it highlights the torments of those who die without knowing Christ as Saviour. There are too many who try to undermine a conscious and terrible everlasting punishment, but we don’t need to argue this passage is more than a parable to bolster that scriptural teaching. (I’m not saying that this is your view.) At a stretch some might agree with Johann Albrecht Bengel's opinion: “...it is a parable, though a true narrative may lie underneath it”. One thing is certain – we should ask ourselves what do we learn from Christ’s story about Lazarus and the rich man?

I'm so glad it was useful to you. It's something I keep coming back to. I'm not sure where in Peter you were reading but some years back I was being challenged by 2nd Peter 1:3-11. Using various sources I wrote it out. The progression this passage spells out really gets to the heart of what it means to grow in Christ: “His divine power has given to us all things that relate to life and devout living, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and virtue by which He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may escape the moral decay and corruption that is in the world because of lust and greed, and become sharers in the divine nature. “For this very reason, by careful application as you exercise your faith, develop high moral standards, and to this moral excellence add knowledge [about Him], and to knowledge add self-control, and to self-control add a resolute and patient attitude, and to this steadfastness add godliness and reverence, and to your piety add brotherly affection, and to brotherly affection add kindness and love. “For as these qualities increase within you they will keep you from being unproductive in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Whoever lacks these qualities is [spiritually] short-sighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. “Therefore fellow Christians, be all the more eager to make your call and election sure, for as long as you practise these things you will never stumble or fall; for in this way an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

Surrender All In F. B. Meyer’s little book, Saved and Kept, he offers in the form of a prayer a believer’s “Dedication” written to encourage the reader to get real about his or her private relationship with God. Approaching God in this way and living it out practically in daily life will ultimately build us up in Christ, enriching our relationship with Him. We can then take that spiritual strength into the world and our local assemblies where we will surely make a tangible difference. So, to paraphrase Mr. Meyer: I remember Your patience and loving kindness to me. I have so often failed and disappointed You instead of submitting to Your will. My only access to You is by Your most precious blood. From this moment, by Your unmerited favour, I give up the impure things that have stopped me being clean. I turn away from friendships that compromise my spiritual life. I reject those personal pleasures that cast a shadow on my hours of fellowship with You. I know I must overcome the wrongdoing which so easily gets the better of me. I need to turn away from this vain world and the enemy who rules it with all his works. I can no longer endure the ways of the flesh and my wrong desires. I know you are able to keep me from stumbling. Lord, I submit myself to You—spirit, soul, and body—to be filled and used by Your Holy Spirit. I truly desire to present myself to God as one alive from the dead, and my body as a tool of righteousness. In my inner life I desire to be pure. I can no longer neglect prayer and reading Your Word. I want to start each day as a disciple should. Help me throughout every day to live to the glory of God, not as someone who merely wants to please and impress those around me, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Help me to remember that everything I own is yours – my money, my home, my possessions. May the Holy Spirit make things clear. May He comfort and purify me. May He teach me to pray, opening the eyes of my heart that I may know You and the power of Your resurrection.

One thing I've felt I should share here is how crucial it is not to stray from the covering of God's Word. Some will throw their nets far and wide reasoning in external contexts only, or too often. In some contexts this is pertinent scholarly analysis that's subservient to God's Word, but in other contexts it's a clutter that leads to unhelpful debate and speculative distractions. There are contexts for historical investigation and interpretation, the reading of all kinds of literature, and so on, but always under the rock solid security of Scripture. We may sift through the Apocrypha, refer to Augustine, Tanakh, Manichaean texts, etc, and dubious references to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but... Someone early this morning reminded me of John 4:4: "Jesus answered, 'It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" This in turn reminded me of the teaching in 2nd Timothy 3:16, 17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work." Scripture here is referencing what we generally call the Old Testament today. It's significant to me that under the guidance and authority of God's Holy Spirit Paul teaches that all Scripture can be used to lead us into spiritual completeness and correctness, equipping us for godly work in Christ. And we are all the more blessed having the New Testament inspired scriptures where we find the teachings of Christ preserved: "Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting..." (2nd John 9, 10, NASB). So as we look far and wide while sharing, let's give thanks to God that we have a perfect yardstick against which we can measure all literature, historical facts and generally all kinds of religious contexts.

Hello Dennis. I did chew over this passage for another thread and topic (below), but what I put in the above post was just cut 'n' paste from 3 study bibles in case it was of interest. But it's good to think things over ourselves of course. I tend to want to look at any Scripture in the context of Christ and my walk with Him, and do realise how narrow that may sound! Yes you're right, no opposition here, although I've come on a few here who are soul-centric (a Hebrews 4:12 kind of thing I plan posting about some day), and others who in my view misuse Scripture and cause wrangles or take positions contrary to Scripture or are snared by personal preferences... All things to be wary of and humble about! But that's by the way stuff here. There are those whose posts are valuable and other interesting topics here and there too. "Discussing... and comparing notes in brotherly love" is how it should be among true believers, I totally agree. _ "The sons of God are possibly those who at one time gave the Lord His proper place in their lives, or are angels (messengers) who didn't stay where they belonged. They had casual sexual relations with the daughters of man — of "Adam". The sons of these relationships were mighty men of renown, or warriors. The Nephilim — "fallen ones" — aren't clearly identified here so we need to speculate carefully. We can't be exactly sure why they are mentioned in the same context as the sons of God."

Hello bartmac. There are lots of approaches to reading Scripture. What works for me is majoring on the NT where I find all essential Christian definitions and the "teachings of Christ" in the letters and Gospels. I use the NT as a lens for the OT. The OT is important of course. At its core the Old Testament testifies to the pre-eminence of Christ (Luke 24:27; John 5:39; Acts 13:27). A very effective way to absord Scripture is by listening to it. I can do this while doing other things. These aren't systematic methods, so it's maybe not useful to you. But I'd think that listening to the OT might be a really helpful way to familiarise yourself with the text while majoring on the NT. I'm sure others here will have specific plans. Hope you find something useful.

Before telling the parable about Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus had been speaking to the "Pharisees, who were lovers of money," about the careful and proper management of earthly assets. He warned against the unrighteous misuse of temporal wealth: "You cannot serve God and wealth” (Luke 16:13, NASB). In the Lazarus parable, Jesus contrasts the bliss of salvation with the severity of the conscious punishment that awaits those whose god is opulent living. They will not be welcomed "into the eternal dwellings" (v.9). Where will they go? Elsewhere in Scripture Christ instructs us to store up "treasures in Heaven" where they will be eternally secure (Matthew 6:20); "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (v.21). After death the man whose soul was absorbed by earthly comforts is tormented by severe physical and emotional agonies — he suffers pain in the heat of Hades and is distressed knowing his relatives could suffer the same torments. But there can be no escape. He cannot cross over to where Lazarus is being comforted. It's ironic that he now wants help from Lazarus, the destitute man who lay ignored sick and hungry at the rich man’s front door. There are important lessons in this parable*. Christ here speaks out against the fatal distractions of temporal wealth, and affirms how they will lead to a terrible, fiery punishment. Christ's terminology is explicit and unsettling. In figurative language He teaches us how severely God will judge the unrighteous. It helps us to understand the dreadful nature of God's judgement against those who have not accepted Christ. Set against this warning of punishment we realise that although the righteous may suffer dreadfully in this life, after death they will be securely comforted forever. *"an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated", (Thayer).

A few weeks back after reading a post here that was speculating about angels and demons in human form, I was thinking about the first few verses of Genesis 6. Some of the study bibles I had to hand gave some background info. It may not be of direct interest, but I thought I'd share it anyway... Genesis 6:4 (Amplified Bible): There were Nephilim (men of stature, notorious men) on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God lived with the daughters of men, and they gave birth to their children. These were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown (great reputation, fame). Two major questions arise in this verse: who are the Nephilim and what if anything is the connection of the Nephilim to the sons of God and the daughters of mankind? The word Nephilim is actually a transliteration — not a translation — of the Hebrew word; translated, it means “ fallen ones,” a phrase that could mean morally or physically degraded individuals, or possibly angels who fell from heaven ( Is 14: 12 ). In spite of its literal meaning , many versions (e.g., KJV, NLT) have followed the Septuagint in translating it as “giants,” a guess seemingly based on the mention of Nephilim in Nm 13: 33 . This proposal appears unlikely, however, since no Nephilim would have survived the flood ( Gn 7: 22-23 ) and thus could not have lived during the post-flood events narrated in Numbers. Further, the Nephilim are never mentioned as one of the groups to be wiped out by the Israelites when they entered Canaan. Their mention in Numbers 13 probably came from the lips of a fear-crazed spy who misinterpreted what he had seen in Canaan. Were the Nephilim products of the marriages between the sons of God and the daughters of mankind ( v. 2 )? Possibly, but in the Hebrew text there is no explicit connection between them. Moreover, the fact that they were on the earth in those days, i.e., before and during the sinful unions, leads some to suggest that their origins are elsewhere. Whatever their ancestry, as powerful and famous men they played a significant role in pre-flood society. Nephilim: These giant-like “mighty men” fill the earth with violence (v. 11; Num. 13:32, 33). The Hb. root means “to fall” and may suggest their fate (Ezek. 32:20–28). and also afterward. This parenthetical remark reminds the book’s original audience that the same kind of horrible people existed after the flood (Num. 13:32, 33). mighty men. The Hebrew here is also used later for Nimrod and his bestial kingdom (10:8–11). As a consequence of the fall, human beings misuse their God-given capacity to rule over other creatures. Aggressive force and violence become the hallmark of human dominion on earth. GENESIS 6:2 sons of God: These have been identified as Sethites (the traditional Christian interpretation), as angels (the earliest Jewish interpretation; cf. Job 1:6), and as royal tyrannical successors to Lamech who gathered harems (proposed by rabbis of the second century A.D.). All three interpretations can be defended linguistically. The first interpretation best fits the immediate preceding context (a contrast of the curse-laden line of Cain with the godly line of Seth). If “sons of God” denotes Seth’s line, then “daughters of man” probably refers specifically to Cainite women. The intermarriage of the two lines easily explains why Noah is the sole righteous offspring of Seth after nine generations. Luke’s genealogy of Jesus provides a basis for understanding how Seth’s lineage may be viewed as “sons of God” (Luke 3:36–38). The second view has ancient support, but seems to contradict Jesus’ statement that angels do not marry (Mark 12:25) and does not explain why the focus is on mortals (v. 3) and the judgment on them (vv. 5–7). The third interpretation explains the phrase “any they chose” and matches the description of Lamech’s actions in 4:19–24 but lacks much ancient support and demands that “sons of God” refers to people who are anything but God-like.

Indeed! We are on the right track, and will grow spiritually, when we are guided by what we clearly understand in God's Word. Abide in Christ daily, and stick to the fullness and the balanced teaching of Scripture.

Hello there, Dennis. Hope you're keeping well. Diffences among true believers in the context of Israel are fairly common, and views stemming from dispensationalism outspoken, if not blunt and even outlandish, in my opinion! (But it's refreshing to avoid even a hint of rancour.) I've no recollection at all of some of what you've shared. Interesting and important, and certainly needs be taken in balance historically. Thanks. I'll read more on this subject I'm sure. Generally it's my view that the attention given to Israel by many Christians is misapplied, and too often out of proportion with the fullness of our calling in Christ. This is true of so-called End Times notions generally, in my opinion... But that's a wider subject. In the meantime I'll hunker down here, keep my ears open, and put on my tin hat, just in case...!

Maybe we need to free ourselves from the somewhat assertive theories of dispensationalism? Many of those who do conclude that by being in Christ, non-Jewish believers and believing Jews are together the true Israel. "...many dispensationalists believe that 'the restoration of Israel in 1948 is positive proof that we are living in the end times, and that the return of the Lord is at hand.' Thus they speculate as to when this return might occur, often followed by less specific revisions when the speculated day passes without Christ appearing. "...in 1948 through Israel’s depopulating and destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages roughly 700,000 refugees [were created]. A similar forceful expulsion following the six-day war in 1967 saw between 100,000 and 260,000 more refugees from the newly occupied West Bank. "...This kind of activity is the antithesis of Old Testament Israel’s calling to be a blessing to the nations (Gen 12:1–3) and counter to the demands of God’s covenant with them as revealed in the Old Testament. The nature of Israel’s present-day governance would have seen the Old Testament prophets of God calling for the nation to repent, to welcome the aliens, to love justice, and for them to turn back to God and to his ways in order to meet the covenant stipulations for receiving his blessing. "Non-dispensational scholars commonly understand that Israel’s identity is summed up in Jesus..." "We know that certain theologians in the West try to attach a biblical and theological legitimacy to the infringement of our rights. Thus, the promises, according to their interpretation, have become a menace to our very existence. The “good news” in the Gospel itself has become “a harbinger of death” for us. "We call on these theologians to deepen their reflection on the Word of God and to rectify their interpretations so that they might see in the Word of God a source of life for all peoples... "We suffer from the occupation of our land because we are Palestinians. And as Christian Palestinians we suffer from the wrong interpretation of some theologians. Faced with this, our task is to safeguard the Word of God as a source of life and not of death, so that “the good news” remains what it is, “good news” for us and for all. In face of those who use the Bible to threaten our existence as Christian and Muslim Palestinians, we renew our faith in God because we know that the word of God can not be the source of our destruction. "Kairos Palestine, 'Moment of Truth,' 2009." Quotes from: The Last Days of Dispensationalism, by Alistair W. Donaldson.

That depends on whether or not we have a high view of Scripture as breathed out by God, a standard Scripture itself demands. Some prefer to read evolutionary theory and other scientific preferences into Scripture. Either way, saying "Adam and Eve had parents" is a direct contradiction of God's Truth — false teaching. Jesus taught: "...from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6). Adam was the first man; he was formed first (1st Corinthians 15:45; 1st Timothy 2:13). He had no parents. In the wider context here online, true believers must be careful how they interact with false teaching. We should avoid getting into a fruitless wrangle over words and distracting ideas. Debate can be counterproductive. We can easily “strive about words to no profit” (consider the principle we find in 2nd Timothy 2:14).

In John 11 Jesus said that Lazarus had "fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." Paul was caught up to the "third heaven" — "Paradise", whether in the body or apart from the body we do not know, but God knows. The scriptural contexts for "sleep" (death) are worth thinking over collectively (see my earlier edited post). These are poignant examples from Scripture, no doubt. But still, personally I think it's very wise to take time to weigh up claims some people make and be cautious. We hear a lot of stories. All things are possible with God, but it's also true that some people are emotionally predisposed to fanciful notions, and some may have ongoing mental issues. It's just a fact, so generally it pays not to be overtrusting, naive, or too easily convinced. That's the point I was making. That's why we need mature spiritual wisdom and understanding, even if circumstances or personal testimonies seem to agree with Scripture.

We need to be very cautious about the experiences some claim to have had. At the very least we need to align such claims with the balanced revelation of Scripture. We need to allow the authority of Scripture to overshadow alleged experiences, while using wisdom to weigh up an individual's character and spiritual condition. Out-of-body experiences and "visions" may not be what they seem. We walk by faith.

Hello Charlie. DEATH IN SCRIPTURE The first thing we can be sure of is after death we face judgement (Hebrews 9:27). On that day Christ has authority to judge: "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life [i.e., those who trusted in Christ, see John 5:24], those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28, 29, NASB); "...there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15, NASB). At a future time the dead "who are in the tombs" will rise to be judged. The dead rise to judgement from the grave. In Christ we who believe will live again, even though we die and have lain in the grave. Martha's comment to Jesus reflects this teaching: "I know that he [Martha's brother] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day" (John 11:24, NASB). 1st Thessalonians 4:15, 16 tells us that those who have died, all the believers who are "asleep" in Christ, will rise first (from their graves). "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1st Thessalonians 4:17-18 NASB). Taken together these verses of Scripture indicate that believers who die are raised at Christ's return. They are considered to be asleep (dead) in their graves until that moment. All who are dead in the tombs will hear His voice. They will be resurrected from sleep (death) to life. What are we aware of after we die and before Christ returns? Can we look to Old Testament texts for insight? "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:10, NASB); "When his spirit leaves him, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts and plans perish" (Psalm 146:4, Amplified Bible). Many (most?) interpret the text at 2nd Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 to mean that immediately after death we will be with Christ: "absent from the body and... at home with the Lord"; "having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better". In 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4 we read a unique account where someone (Paul) was caught up to the "third heaven" — "Paradise". We ought not to think of this experience in the context of being dead. Paul writes: "...whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows." A singular context for an after-death experience is found in 1st Samuel 28:7-20 where Saul uses a medium to draw up Samuel "out of the earth". "Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?'" (v.15). There are other contexts in Scripture where individuals did not die but were taken directly into God's presence. In Genesis 5:24 we are told "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him"; "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God" (Hebrews 11:5 NASB). In 2nd Kings 2:11 we read that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Elijah appeared with Moses to Peter, James and John when Christ led them up a high mountain and was transfigured before them (see Matthew 17:1-13). In Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the criminal being crucified, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (NASB). Although Jesus' body was removed from the cross and laid in the tomb, this text implies that after dying the crucified criminal was taken that day to where Christ was and did not "sleep" awaiting the resurrection. Does this prove conclusively that when we die we are immediately with the Lord? If after death we "sleep", our appearing before Christ will seem instant. But whatever our views may be, we know that after death we are forever secure: "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, 'Death IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?' The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord" (1st Corinthians 15:50-58, NASB). "I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:54, NASB). ___

Hello Charlie. For me the primary message of this portion of Scripture is to endure patiently through many weaknesses while making sure we abide faithfully in Christ. Our conduct matters because we will all give an account after we leave this earthly body behind. When our body dies we can be sure we have an everlasting place to live. But for now we suffer while we long for the day we will be eternally secure. In this body we can be filled with courage and hope, even though we are not yet resurrected and literally standing before the Lord. Yes, of course we would rather leave this imperfect body behind and "be at home with the Lord." Whether we are at home in our earthly body, secure in Christ, or we are resurrected and eternally home with Him, it is our desire to always be pleasing to Him. We are called to good works in Christ. True believers will all "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" (2nd Corinthians 5:10), so that each one may be repaid for what has been done in the body, whether good or bad. We will be held responsible for all we have done. As those who abide in Christ, we know that in this unstable body we are secure in Him. We are covered by His righteousness, but our conduct and works will be judged. This is a sobering reminder to walk in the Spirit so we will know wisdom, true revelation, purity, maturity in Christ, Christ-likeness and sound teaching.

Yes indeed, God knew what would have happened if David had stayed among those who would betray him to Saul. It's not wise to stay with the wrong people behind their double gates and bars.

As an aside here... When we read the Old Testament records we can often apply them to our walk with Christ. This story of David saving the town of Keilah reminds me that sometimes those God wants us to help can betray us, or they may try to convince us to stay where it's unsafe. (There are many ways we can be tempted to compromise even while doing what's right. Consider Galatians 6:1.) Sometimes it's best to move on to a place that's spiritually safe. Spiritual strongholds in Christ protect us from the enemy, just as David was hidden from Saul.

This is an important point you have shared. Yes, salvation is sure, "but only as through fire" (see Scripture below). We are called to good works in Christ. True believers will all "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" (2nd Corinthians 5:10), so that each one may be repaid for what has been done in the body, whether good or bad. We will be held responsible for all we have done. Abiding in Christ we are secure. We are covered by His righteousness, but our conduct and works will be judged. This is a sobering reminder to walk in the Spirit so we will know wisdom, true revelation, purity, maturity in Christ, Christ-likeness and sound teaching. Future judgement in Christ will encourage us to properly handle Scripture, and we will need to watch out for those who misuse it. (This last point is very important in an online 'Christian' forum such as this.) "If anyone builds on the foundation [Jesus Christ] with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one's work will become obvious. For the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will experience loss, but he himself will be saved — but only as through fire" (1st Corinthians 3:12-15, CSB)

When he was in Keilah, David asked the Lord if the men of Keilah would surrender him and his men to Saul. God answered and said, "They will surrender you." So David and his men left Keilah and went somewhere else to avoid being given over to Saul. David hid in the wilderness and Saul searched but failed to find him. The men of Keilah would have handed him over to Saul, but God prevented Saul finding him in the wilderness (God did not allow him to be handed over). So, David understood from God that IF he stayed in Keilah (a city that had double gates and bars) Saul would surely capture him. Perhaps I've misunderstood your question or misread the Scripture... But it does seem to me David turned to God because he was unsure what would happen if he stayed. God revealed that if he stayed he would surely be captured so, naturally enough, he fled and hid from Saul where he knew he would be well hidden. I personally don't see predestination vs. omniscience" in the text.