Kelly2363

I came into the church from prison having been saved in solitary confinement in 1984 being largely predicated on the utter distress of a damaged mind and spiritual hatred of God that stemmed from my life. What I am saying, however, is that the church I went into ten months after being converted and then released from prison had a man my own age who endured similar things to myself. It was he who stumbled at me because I told him that using his life experience as a mechanism for promoting the love of God was a serious mistake. I could see that he wasn't preaching the gospel and then showing empathy - he was showing empathy to uphold an essential carnal gospel that had it that Christ was not sufficient. I told him that Christ was more than sufficient and he needed to change his approach. He stumbled at me and in the end he lost his faith, his wife and his second born child - all because he poisoned his own heart and could not see that Christ is our entire deliverance - and empathy is mere human understanding. His saying to me was - if he has once broken mens' necks, but now only broke their legs, then he was improving. So I said that to the man who's legs he broke their was no improvement - only his broken legs. As to dealing with the recent investigation into Catholic priests abusing children in the French Catholic system - they are no more in truth to the even greater number that have fathers abusing their children sexually in the home from catholic families. The reason why those dreadful catholic cases are used in my view is because they report to a political and not a true spiritual meaning. Spiritually, Christ is sufficient. That is what my friend in my first church would not receive. I was the witness of it - and he still would not receive it. I don't go as far as to say that God will deal with those men - because those men may repent and if they do God will forgive them. I do say that when their guilt is undoubted then they should be starkly punished to cause others to fear God who set the instrument of the government into place to punish wrong doing.

I agree with your comment - not because I think that child molesters and abusers should not be dealt with sternly - but because I was also abused as a child - physically and mentally and then when in loco parentis care I was sexually abused for years by a deputy head teacher. I have only given it a consideration whilst counselling others - And apart from that knowing - since coming to Christ - I have allegedly caused some brethren to stumble because they were determined to utilise this precept of child abuse as a political and spiritual mechanism to find leverage in their carnal ministries. Knowing Christ is sufficient to heal all things - including child abuse. There is much more mileage today in expressing an empathetic intelligence than teaching people that in Christ we are a new creature. Its tragic - and its carnal.

Seeing as your opening comment to this OP has produced some agreement with its direction - whether asserted innocently or otherwise - you yourself say that the assertion (emboldened above) is a seeming heretical one. One would have to see that expression of yours - were you to be stating that, People will be in heaven who we thought would not be like some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus - (as an unqualified claim) - were heretical. But I am certain from your entire comment that that is in your own understanding already. The point at least in that regard of an unqualified assertion begs a question rather than demands belief. Now in your last post you have said, "I mean, what do we really know besides what we're told." If you are born again of the Spirit of God then you must qualify with the Scripture that no man has need of anyone to be his teacher - for we are all taught of God. And that is expressly to do with knowing Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is the sovereign act of God and all else is a process of being conformed to the Apostles teaching grounded in Scripture. So. all the comments in this OP may have a validity - as all are confessing Christ - including yourself. Yet the deeper things are not hidden when the Lord opens a way into seeing them. And in that regard that too must be taught by God and not read in books. Whereas your opening sentence implies books and not discernment. I wonder if you do see what has been said in this OP (disregarding my own comments), and how those beliefs form a spiritual claim - that in some part upholds your concern as begged in your emboldened comment. And I don't mean children or babes that die before accountability.

Fascinating!

The topic of this OP is a claim set into an uncovering or else an expression of uncovering by those who uncover and a spiritual meaning by those who intend spiritual meanings. It is defined in the claim itself at the beginning of the OP. As I don't set myself to uncover in that claim to knowing and increasingly knowing that which in its spiritual meaning produces a heresy - further, and seeing that I am concerned with spiritual meanings and not culture and learning - I post according to the spiritual ambition and stated ambition of several posters in this OP - one of whom has given a very specific meaning that of itself has given what I could say a basis for saying it were I inclined to a heretical effect by expressing a fuller prophetic direction of the New Heavens and the New Earth - as he did. I am not so inclined and so as I said - I won't say it. That doesn't seem too difficult to grasp!

I found it in a prison cell in 1984 one year after the Internet was formed - if by internet we mean the TCP/IP protocol stack that began the formalisation of data communications in a shared environment. But in my solitary cell - I only had the Father and His will in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. What I mean by the prophetic ministry is the entirety of the Word of God in its living meaning. Though you know I also mean something rather more personal to my own calling. I understand your provocation and it is a small matter to me.

Mmmmm... There is no misgiving or doubt in the prophetic ministry. It's all the rod or else the encouragement. There is not Mmmmm... On a forum then its a difficult balance to make. In the sight and hearing of any true heresy it is a simple matter to try and correct - or else to rebuke - and even then to desire mercy. I could simply ignore what is expressly said to myself on a forum - but that would be to deny that I can see and do see what things mean when they are spoken by living saints - being directed in their spiritual effect and is leading to harm. Perhaps I have even had a semblance of thought sometime that mercy would be better served by remaining silent - but that has never yet produced anything more than politeness and an endless demand for politeness in a parade that is Babylonian in character and has in truth little part in bringing glory to Christ - especially in His coming return. I desire that all men are saved and thoroughly saved - even my enemies - but I am unable to refuse the Father and refuse my calling so as to become a mere spectator and worse - a participant in a polite parade that has it that the very reason why brethren so urgently desire peace is because they have some portion of its meaning themselves - and then to silently bear with the reality that the parade is corrupt and becoming increasingly against Christ.

To this specific element of your post. I know that you are not a Universalist - what I do believe is that you hold to a partial doctrine - and just to say this plainly - I can see why that partial meaning would be provoked from the Scripture itself. In fact I could make a more robust and entirely Scriptural argument that would give credence to the overarching sense that a just God - seeing that Christ died to take away the sin of the world - would have a just answer to the problem of the many who insofar as we know have never heard the Gospel in their own hearing or had any semblance of a religious framework that would facilitate their having visions or dreams that would correct their lie (Isa Al'Masih for example) and provoke a heart to please God into a living faith. Many Muslims are being saved in Islamic countries on that very premise today. Of those who fall outside that meaning then where is the justice of God who willed to send His only begotten Son to take away the tutor of the Law and the spiritual effect of sin as a natural fact of all who are in Adam - if God is love? Those kinds of questions don't disturb me - but neither do they need answering. In fact trying to answer them is leading to a Universalist claim that is not as nuanced as answering the question of the justice and love of God - and leads to a powerless Gospel. I find that increasing numbers of believers resist that power of God unto Salvation and increasingly feel confident to rebuke those who hold to it. With me that is a serious misjudgement altogether. But then I don't do tea and biscuits with heretics. NOT YOU but those who are ambitiously determined to undermine the Gospel - even when they can express doctrines that say otherwise.

Ultimately it is no concern of mine what anyone believes who takes the name of Christ and then sets about to distort doctrine whether they see it or not. My concern in that meaning is not the one who expresses their opinion - howsoever they set it into a claim to the meaning of Scripture - or a narrative form. My concern is always for the many who are led astray with an effect that has its ambition in the working of Satan. And I don't make a theoretical truth - I stand against Satan to his face both in real life and in any expression of resisting his ambitions on line. That can easily lead to being sanctioned on a forum. In real life no one resists me at all once I take a stand - other than to speculate endlessly - as it may be endlessly - if I do not take a stand. Thats just the way it is. The Lord makes the separation and no one can misunderstand that. In your specific instant of commenting you said, "And no one here can judge the eternal disposition of another. Ever. Some of you aren't even sure of your own eternal disposition." That latter point is the prophetic concern and the former is the inference that is - some who have not come into a true knowledge of Christ and into Him by faith will be saved. That inference is against the apostolic doctrines of life given us in the Scripture and not a matter for those who claim to be bond servants of Christ. Speaking more generally, when men tell me that it is God who judges they inferentially assert that I should not have a judgement or else if not to myself then all others who do judge. Whereas judging the household of God is the only judgement that is given to the ministry of the churches and not a judgement in the semblance of a misused precept. I don't play with words and whilst I can see how easily that can be appended with quiet discord - that appeasement of a lie - setting believer against believer - if for no other reason that a sense of fear of consequence - for myself I can say clearly that I don't fear anyone regardless of the consequence. So no need to dispel my disquiet - just read the doctrine and the meaning. And by saying I don't fear anyone I mean expressly that I know whom I am serving and I fear Him. Forums are difficult so I won't be alarmed if I am removed sometime. Neither will I blame anyone other than the Devil.

From this (below) because whilst this is a partial Universal doctrine of salvation it is in truth the leaven that leavens the entire bread. So rather than prevaricate with small lies I expressed an opposition to the whole ambition of Satan.

I didn't quote yourself I quoted another. So if you must correct me do it in a true spirit and not a false one.

How will some Muslims believe in Christ to a claim of being found in heaven at the end of the age when their Jesus is Isa Al'Masih - a mere prophet and a thing that even the Pharisees recognised when they cried we have no King but Caesar? Even as Qur'an (The Recitation) rebukes the Jews when they boasted to Muhammed that they crucified Christ in Jerusalem Surah 4:157-158 wherein Muhammed expressly denies the death of Christ and ascribes it as a false understanding prescribed by God and intentionally set to deceive - and the בני קוריט'ה‎; (Banu Qurayza) paid with their generations the penalty of death for standing with their belief that Muhammed was not a prophet - regardless of their certainty that their forefathers did indeed crucify Christ by the hand of evil men. If the Muslim is given a vision of their Isa Al'Masih then their faith is removed from Islam and becomes Christ where the vision is a true vision of Christ. What could be said of Hindus - at best is acharya (the Christ Spirit) and of Buddhists it is a similar lie. So I ask by what power will the Mulsim and the hindu and the Buddhist be found in heaven?

This heresy of Universalism is having the effect of causing many, particularly young saints, to believe that they can live as they please. It is however not exclusive to the youth. It is a growing effect of the working of Satan. The effect is heresy because it is separating those who already believe from the truth of Scriptures regarding the importance of our present conduct. The coming kingdom of Christ will be a kingdom of authority and will be understood in that way by all who have a part in it, even as it is understood now by those who labour toward it. No one however, who today, takes the name of Christ, and yet lives to please themselves always, will find an easy entrance therein. Being born from on high with a new life is the spiritual minimum for entrance into this kingdom of God and Christ (John 3:3). Those who teach Universalism are become an undoubted heretic and should be withstood prophetically and prayerfully. Otherwise many may be left wondering if they find no entrance into the kingdom; whether their name is written in the book of life. God takes no delight in the destruction of the creature. Neither should we. Any man, who in the end, having cause to wonder such a terrible thing, may be found wondering from hell or outer darkness, during the 1000 year kingdom of Christ, where separation from God is a torment and darkness is a patiently enduring, and the fearful expectation of judgement. To be the cause of stumbling is no trivial matter. Those who cause stumbling should flee from it, as from Gods wrath. The only remedy against this heresy of Universalism is a true knowledge of God' word and a faithful and obedient walk. Always taking account of the flesh and its endless lusts and desires; which if we walk in them will rob us of our righteous inheritance in Christ and bring His holy name into discord amongst men at His appearing. It is important that we understand that this lie of Universalism did not originate with a man or with men. The originator is the opponent of God. He is the father of lies as well as the father of liars. Those who believe his lies in this world. by believing become his children. Having been set free from this world and delivered unto Christ to be His possession, we must resist entanglement with the world. When the full effect of Satans working has come in, it will be to an abominable effect. Its name is the mystery of iniquity. A man standing in the Holy Place declaring himself to be god and causing blasphemies to be spoken which will become a terror to all men. Today its effect is the tending to apostasy. It is the falling away from the simplicity of faith in Christ alone. Having been taught by the apostles from the beginning; is now being rejected to a full effect in our day.

Well what you posted was a misquote from a short story by a French poet from the mid to late 19th Century. So you didn't say anything of your own - As you assert that I should NOT take your post as a correction and instead rather as your belief - then you are free to hold whatever belief you want to hold of course.

No - I wasn't calling you an Occult Theosopher. The direction of words or their dial is generally best understood when we remember what we have said and what we are saying now. I am the former Occult Theosopher not yourself. That was one direction and the other direction was the predicative clause.

The Devil - the Serpent and the Accuser of the Brethren does exist - Lucifer, however, doesn't. That is where necessity lies. Not in trying to counter a former Occult Theosopher with your corrections.

Lucifer doesn't exist anymore. It's one of the mistaken beliefs that even believers uphold and with it we give credence to his former beauty as though he still were perfect in wisdom and beauty - as in the day he was created. Satan is a name - but it is reflective of all naming conventions of created beings and denoted character - being an opponent of God. He does of course have a supernatural charge and so can transport physical boundaries including in his appearance. But it seems to me that the bible tells us very little of who he was or who he is other than his trade - be that the timbral and the pipes as a Covering Cherub directing worship of God or as Satan feeding upon the dust of the ground.

From ashes upon the earth - reduced in the sight of those that beheld him when he corrupted his sanctuaries through his trade.

Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me. Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles. For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong! Here for this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you; for I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit. Certainly I have not taken advantage of you through any of those whom I have sent to you, have I? I urged Titus to go, and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take any advantage of you, did he? Did we not conduct ourselves in the same spirit and walk in the same steps? All this time you have been thinking that we are defending ourselves to you. Actually, it is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ; and all for your upbuilding, beloved. For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances; I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced. 2 Corinthians 12:1-21 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Matthew 5:1-12 Is that the semblance of similarity you speak of?

NO

Where? Where does the whole Scripture provide many examples where women teach, lead, and have authority over men?

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrew 4:12-16 (NASB) The writer of Hebrews tells us that it is the word of God that is able to separate the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. He also tells us that the instrument that makes that possible is grace. It must be clear therefore that whilst reading and studying the word of God is both necessary and desirable, a division has to be made. This division is first, spirit and soul, then joints and marrow and finally thoughts and intentions. It is by reading the word of God and desiring its effect in the renewing of the mind that we will prove that perfect and acceptable will of God in our own lives.

If thoughts of sweet content do flee! In men with certain flesh inclined, Those sins that Christ did once deny, Forsaking all the cross to bear. What ought my heart to Him now say? Lest once despising that great love, Be found in Him a cast away. Lord by all thy strength and good, Lay waste the foolish heart impure, And with Thy rod behove to truth, This vessel made of flesh and blood. Come lead me now my God of might, Whose mercies every quick repair, The faithless heart when sin takes flight

Wholly agree with you. Amen I suppose that this is the difference between what is true and which we can declare to be true and set into the proper context - taking the natural fact of the respondent into account. I don't anticipate that a gentile would cite Abraham and Isaac before first citing Christ - yet James says: “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac, his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” James 2:14-26 So who would cite James to speak of resurrection - who was not a Jew first?

Self evidently. Else believing in the resurrection of Christ would have no meaning. Nevertheless, to speak of the resurrection of Christ is to also speak of His death else it is a supernatural happenstance and to be refused. Otherwise I may as well open the church to the Muslim also and let them speak in the church because they also believe in resurrection.