TCC

Interesting take Spiros. Michael Heiser did a video once of Jesus birth I believe in 3 BC using the Virgo constellation to demonstrated (similar to 9-23-17). I understand the tendency today to compare something of Christ with antichrist. I would tend to see, in the first seal, for example, a mirror of Christ rather than an opposite. In the sense of fiery, I believe it will be. So on that note we would likely see a similar potential. Blessings.

Interesting observations. Is there a summary of what all that means? lol. It does not sound like you would view Revelation through the escatological futurist grid. Correct?

I understand but Revelation the way it is written would not imply the first as last judgement. If so, maybe America is Babylon the Great and gets destroyed tomorrow. Or maybe Armegeddon happens first and the rest is all downhill from there? Or maybe angel reapers go out tomorrow to gather clusters of sinners and we have the great supper of God start off the tribulation? I always appreciate poetic thinking. Amen. But I believe the reason God lays it out in Revelation helps us see the flow so as, not to confuse. Blessings.

Understood. There are different approaches to Revelation. From what I have seen in deep dives over the years is that we do see progress of trumpets after seals. And Rev 15:1 states the bowls as the last. And each of the trumpets and each of the bowls come out of the 7th seal and 7the trumpet. This would arguably be practically mandating that no trumpets come until the 7th seal. And no bowls come until the 7th trumpet. For the seventh seal = trumpets. And the 7th trumpet = bowls. It would appear a way to express linkage almost like in a court of law document clarity, perhaps no?

Keeping in mind this is God's word and His creation. Our sense of what happens when grass disappears (lets say for the most part...can the grass return in part? or might there be places it remains yet considered as whole?). Just saying. The 3 woes: 1. Trumpet 5 2. Trumpet 6 3 The bowls Seems to refer to the last sequence of 9 judgements though right?

Hi brother. First I would like to clarify that by what I percieve my stance is not that America was a Christian nation, or that I align with Christian Nationalism movement. To me, those are both overreaches. As I would understand the constuttion not wanting to empower any religion to control the government. I thank you brother for your thoughtful post and very interesting article. It made me think deeper. But as we know "how the constitution works" is a massive debate within our borders. I thank you for the helpful and engaging article. From the Artice The threefold answer lies in the stated purposes of the Constitution, its religious neutrality, and the theory of government it embodies. Whereas the Declaration explained and justified a rebellion to secure God-given rights, the Constitution is a blueprint for stable and effective republican government in a free country. The Preamble to the Constitution declares that its purposes are “to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty.” These are wholly secular objects; religious references are extraneous in a document drafted to further them. One way to express this is from the Hillsdale 1 minute video claiming these are two sides of the same coin: From the Article -- Example of 2 Sides The Constitution established a strong national government to replace the relatively feeble Confederation Congress created by the Revolutionary-era Articles of Confederation, but the Constitution is hardly a document glorifying top-down power. On the contrary, the theory of government underpinning the United States Constitution is popular sovereignty. The government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed, not from an assembly of elders, not from a king or a prelate, and not from a higher power. The stirring opening words of the Preamble, “We the People of the United States,” make it clear both who is establishing the government and for whose benefit it exists. There is no consent required beyond the will of the people for the people to govern themselves. It is because of the content and context of the declaration that the constitution has the meaning it does. From the Article -- This criticism confuses an admittedly elitist preference for government by the able with a theory of power emanating from above. The Constitution not only rejected monarchy, but all forms of hereditary privilege and arbitrary rule. It established fixed rules that delimited the powers of the governors, not the rights of the governed. It is to the citizens and the states, not to the executive, that legislators are answerable. The source of all legislative and executive power can be traced, directly or indirectly, to the people. The declaration underpins why the constition matters. And what it is not. From the Article In place of the divine right of monarchs, the Declaration asserted the divine rights of all men, and both the Declaration and the Constitution source the legitimacy of political rule exclusively in the consent of the governed. This article affirms the two sides. From the Article The Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution do not therefore represent competing views of the existence of a Supreme Being or its role in American political life. They are two sides of the same coin. When read together, the Declaration and Constitution tell us that the people’s rights are divine in origin, sacred and unalienable, while governments are human in origin, answerable to the people and dependent entirely on their consent. This article affirms 2 sides itself plainly. PREAMBLE I got the following from online. The Preamble to the Constitution is not vital from a purely legal perspective, as the Preamble does not have any legal value in and of itself. The Preamble is also a very short part of the Constitution, as it is actually a single sentence, and therefore, does not make up any significant part of the Constitution in terms of length. The importance of the Preamble lies not in these two senses, but instead lies in the precedent the Preamble establishes for the rest of the Constitution. The Preamble was the Founding Fathers’ way of informing future generations of their motives and intent in writing the Constitution, as well as a way of establishing the most basic principles necessary for consideration of the Constitution. The opening words of the Preamble are “We the People of the United States”, which are perhaps the most well-known words in the Constitution. These words are critical to understanding that the Constitution was designed to establish a government empowered by the will of the people and for the good of the people. The Preamble has often been used by Constitutional scholars in order to determine how other parts of the Constitution should be interpreted, as the Preamble does outline several basic purposes for the creation of the Constitution. Each of these basic purposes provides insight and understanding into the Constitution but does not actually provide any legal force. When used in court, the Preamble only ever provides an open guide for interpreting the Constitution and never provides any legal rules that must be followed. This has been proven in a number of cases in which a litigant attempted to argue for his position based on the words of the Preamble. Even though the Preamble does not have such legal power, it bears great significance for the Constitution as a whole and for any person’s understanding of that document. . . . . . What the preamble is to the constitution is context framed within and for the constitution. What the declaration of independence is to the constitution is the context and "what it is not" charter. Please see this short Hillsdale 5 minute video regarding linkage. So yeah my point is not that the constitution itself (and thank you brother for tightening perspective there) permits us to consider ourselves as endowed by the creator (as born in His image) and therefore, on paper, we affirm this. For that in a way might be too self congratulatory. Or perhaps understood as a perspective feeble people have about their being governed. Almost like a hopeful note that "hey everybody, our document says we get our rights from the creator." Rather, it is written under that assumption. Which is brilliant. And not only brilliant but in more ways than one, providentially accurate. For we are surrounded in the Providence. That a ragtag team of people defeat majestrates and form their own country. That such a nation became a refuge for persecuted Jews from all over the world. That said country became the most powerful country in human history. That this nation (on paper and historically) pursues human dignity. These I find to all be attributes of the inaugural providential stamp of "self evident." For it has become so to the whole world now for centuries. Not that it is a nation not without fault. But just that as best mankind in his fallen state might afford, so we have. And so it has been providentially...self evident. Officially though I would say that the declaration also serves as context for legal reference...as it seems that the clarifying intent expressed in the decloration afforded amendments that made its way into the constitution... https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1590&context=facpubs#:~:text=CONSTITUTIONAL INTERPRETATION,-ALEXANDER TSESIS*&text=The Declaration of Independence provides,a foundational rule of interpretation. . . . . What I am not saying is that the constitution declars Jesus as God. But as Paul clarifies who the "alter to an unknown God" is (Acts 17), and as God used Cyrus to introduce the world to what would later be borrowed upon as democracy and certainly ingredients the founding founders wer so guided in forming a constitution therefrom as well, we who are believers know there is no such thing as other gods or dieties (as meat sacrificed to idols in Corinth were being sacrificed to no one at all...that book declares). I would not feel comfortable if the way evangelicals have gone today that they got to define God in the Constituion and ruled as elites. To me, this would be terrifying. Because a sure way to corrupt the church is give it absolute power. So in that sense I would see what is self evident in the concept of creator is more the sense of this: "Whoever created us, He, that One, made us...and nature. And that One is the One from whom rights organically derive." In that, certainly there can be idolatrous versions of God incerted. But what man even of the Christian faith has a perfect frame of God? I am a Christian and a believer. Jesus is God. We have His word. But we have a lot of denominations, and a lot of bad teaching, and heresy in our Christian world. If some on the further fringes of notions about Christ that would be questionable got to define that as a way to invoke governance...that would be sad. I praise God for the constitution's wisdom not to allow the Church of the US to become the church of England the pilgrims fled to freely worship. It would be one thing if those that left England wanted the freedom to worship a pagan god. But the historical account is that the persuite of religious freedom was not the right to become witches, but the right to see God for who He is -- Wich would certainly transcend the terranical church in England version of Him. But the way I see it brother, bottom line, is that the constitution (as frame and in context in reference of the decloration) is the only government structured on the true creator making us in His image. That exact language is not in the declaration nor the constitution. But deriving rights from the "unknown God" = being created in His image, as we know. And as Providence in His hands transcends mere mens views upon Him, well...this is kind of perfect fodder for the 1st seal in my book. There is a certain sense of irony in it all too...lol. Of course, brother I may be mistaken. And my view totally not accurate. But the case I would make on some levels is already somewhat self evident. Although, in nowise does this attest to it being the most accurate view. Thanks so much for engaging and interacting in this way. Truly. Blessings.

Good highlight on "all the grass." God provides. I believe Rev is sequential. I would place trumpet 1 like 1/4 into the tribulation. As i would see trumpet 7 as the midpoint of the 7 years. Blessings.

I agree brother. But the USA has the only constitution that has as stated our rights are from God not government. I believe that document could be an insignia for conquer globalist power grab. Blessings.

Ok so to stir the pot and reward your diligent heart brother i will say it plainly. I have met no one who agrees with me. So it is fine if we see it different. I believe the seals are in order because i would see Revelation largely as a linear book. I believe seal 1 is judgement on evil globalist governments. Of which America concurs through the US constitution. And helps Israel establish peace and safety for Ez 38...seal 2. In this sense i see seal 1 as God waving good by to the age of grace by giving the world the best it could have under fallen rule in order to prime Israel to welcome her for her 70th week. And the pretrib rapture occur in seal 1 climax. And Ez occur as we rapture or just after. Tribulation proper i see as seal 3 "famine." Welcoming Israel to her 70th week. Blessings. PS -- what is the living creature that calls the 2nd seal? And what does that look like if you but "red" next to it?

Good observation. I see lion as symbolic too. America came from England. Symbol of lion. I believe Daniel's animals describe USA as end time nation player (wings of an eagle) and heart like a man (democracy coming out of the age of Kings and Queens). Thanks for your reply. Blessings.

Thanks David. You know for 1800 years the church thought the 1st seal to be a good thing. Like the gospel or the spirit conquering or the church. And yes, even Christ. Interesting how you noted about the 1st, or order, not being specifically mentioned. And in this way asks...like you are...Jesus? I believe that is astute. Today most go hands down with the 1st seal as Anti-Christ. But I believe there are several problems with that view. Although I would not venture it to be Christ, I would say that instead of that white horse appearing as a false of Christ when He later comes, that it is actually possibly an echo of Christ to come (mirror like instead of opposite to). Most associate the 1st seal judgement to have to be horrific or deceptive because it is connected to the tribulation train. So to make the first seal good, in the 21st century mind, seems rediculous. I understand how it looks. But today's exegesis of the 1st seal as AC seems to be little more than, "it can't be Chist...therefore it must be antichrist." But, David, you find yourself not going there so much. I appreciate the consideration. Blessings.

Thanks Michael. Yes. Well stated. Thanks for EZ and Zech references. From what I understand though, Zech 1:8 is likely Cyrus or God establishing peace and victory for Israel over Babylon (as Persia freed Israel). It would seem those who protrolled the earth noticed that Israel's enemies were at ease...and so it would seem historically this did result in some further conquers by Cyrus but also a foundation for 1 of the 4 four craftsmen found in Zech, Alexander the Great...who conquered the whole world (which laid foundation for 1 Greek common language a prep for the gospel exposure). In this sense, I would see the period of Zech and horses to resemble triumph for Israel. In some sense, this is a particular I do associate with the 1st seal. Perhaps in that way too could be overlay perhaps?

Greetings. This forum looks like a great place to discuss or consider some unique perspectives. I had not been interested in end times for 20 years. But 2016 seemed to start to perk an interest. And by 2017, I was very interested. I never read the book of Revelation until 2017. I am pretrib rapture, but open to how others view things. I have looked at and considered many end times views. During the past 8 years, the irony now for me is that Revelation is very familiar to me now. In fact, I am more familiar with it than most other books of the Bible. I guess it is because I really had to sift through quite a bit to even make heads or tails of it. Of course there is still a lot of mystery in it for me. But some things do standout somewhat. My view of the four horsemen I have not seen in any theological book. So admittedly it might not be too stable. But over the course of the past 8 years it has only become more likely, it would seem. If correct, it would seem to be something forming right now under our feet. Some features: * Seal 1 and 2 seem to be related -- by use of "and another (went out)." This is the only time of the four this phrase is used. Whereas it could have been for the 3rd and 4th but is not mentioned. * Anti-Christ Seal 1 -- The church had seen the 1st seal as a good thing for 1800 years. Other than "it can't be good because it mirror's Christ's horse color at the end of the trib." But no culture or history has ever had a white horse as deception. Neither has scripture afforded this anywhere else. * Horsemen -- This distinguishing seems to separate them from other seals. It would appear this separation been indicative potentially of the earthiness (or coming out from men) of their different origin. * Seal 5 -- Notice seal 5 is seen from effect in heaven...not as we had seen in formation of boots hitting the ground. Persecution would certainly in many ways be considered, "of the earth" arising from men. Could seal 5 actually be a 5th horseman unstated? The reason I lay it out this way is that it would appear the four horsemen to be somewhat "transitional." Like, part of the system that morphs into (or overlays upon) the age of grace prior to their arrival (I believe the 4 horseman are not birth pangs but a part of the tribulation or a direct bridge into it--in my view this is key). So I wanted to lay out some features in the event anyone might be interested in discussing views of the 4 horsemen. I believe the 1st seal in general is a good judgement that serves as a bridge into the tribulation age. This may sound unusual. I understand. But I really have not seen exegesis for the 1st seal. Rather, it seems we are more or less in an age of opinion as exegesis. If interested I would be happy to share my full view. But welcome any cordial pushback and/or views and perspectives that might be helpful or interesting to consider in our day. Blessings.

What is stronger than your or my opinion is the revealing of scripture giving Israel her 70th week. That is between them and God. Its his 70th week, not yours to decide what its suppose to mean and how to look down on others. I get frustrated with all the Christians so fascinated with the NWO and the Wizard of Oz power given to Satan to be sovereign over the world as we fall into the tribulation. But that's a different story...lol. It boils down to what scripture means. Not competing our piety with climate change virtuosos. Would we say that Christ was wrong by the same measure in giving the same wage for a worker who worked all day and one who worked for one hour? I agree the USA has not had recent doses of healthy hard times to reflect and come down off the selfie bandwagon. But I don't automatically think that means I am more caring and thoughtful for not being pretrib. Especially if pretrib is His prophecy...and that's how it goes down. Would you want to meet Him with that chip on your shoulder? It sounds like a issue to take to prayer though friend. I understand underneath it all there is a heart expressed beyond Corrie or you in you with benevolent intention before God. But His prophecy has the last word, right?

Blessings.

Hi there. Thanks for your inquiry. Well if you and I got into a deep discussion on terms, concepts, and what I am looking at, you'd see full well how ultra consistent my cessasionist ways comport with a possible to probable near future outcome. We think is is wise to see our age as decadent. And it is. We think it wise to believe that the NWO is in power now and plunging us into hell in their little hand basket. And I actually partly agree. They are exerting much power. We think it wise to see Hegelian Dialectic and believe is perception is more from God than the New Age. And as far as tracking with political science, yeah....ok...i guess in ways...sure. But to not recognize the Hegelian Dialectic outside our comfort zones of understanding (like where the common or familiar application of such notions are applied), the greater outer spheres of Hegelian Dialectics, I do not see as wise. And practically, please forgive the way this sounds, but imparting sovereignty to Satan. Please allow me to explain. It is not his 70th week coming. It is not the NWO's 70th week coming. It is God's 70th week for Israel. The import there is because of and for their surrender as a nation to Him to accept Him as king of the kingdom He wishes to bring them into that they refused 2k years ago. That is God's focus. We are the one's fascinated with the dark shadows of our age and a vengeful spirit assigned often to God. That is not to say that vengeance does not belong to Him. For it surely does. But in our post modern minds we are tempting to sensationalize the devil. Even though his presence is broad, deep, and amazing as far as our finite minds consider. But the way I see it, honestly...we are too focused on our versions of how the tribulation has to belong to this NWO and we sort of feel entitled to believe that...or so I feel. Well this is my general response in context. I would say though however one thing in relation to the Trump brigade. I would ask you to please consider that the options on belief ranges are not limited to what CNN thinks or Fox News or even those super followers of Trump whose champion is the 17th letter. There are ways to see God's story with heavy focus on the millennial age more than the tribulation that do pass beyond your suspect of being fleshly perhaps. Well...just ask you to consider is all. And by that, I do believe their is a tribulation coming exactly as laid out in Revelation. A 70th of testing for the world like NEVER before. I don't think the dreams others have had or the aspiration others intent toward one like Trump are consideration worthy. The New Apostolic Reformation is a cult. BUT please be aware that Paul had a woman follow him around praising who he was until Paul casted the spirit out of her and her merchandisers lost money. Was she correct? Was Paul a servant of the most high? How about Caiaphas prophecy in John 18? Or in the OT, Balaam. He prophesied for God, as a part time job, right? Just saying, I think God might permit a bunch of conjecture all over the place to help a world about to go to hell in a hand basket a bit of head's up. Sure it may entrap them. I just hope the church is aware of what it all means and does not become like the Puritans during the witch trails. This may sound way off base. And if so, please forgive me. I will answer any measure of clarity you would like on that matter. But clarity for now, I am still a cessationist. Blessings.

I think there are reasonable arguments for the restraining as the church. I think there are reasonable arguments for Michael the angel as the restrainer. A much lesser rather fascinating take is Elijah. This view can be found but is very rare. Personally, I believe that the timing of events helps provide some possible answers for us. If we look at timing, and if timing be a chief principle in interpretation, then perhaps looking beyond timing as a starting point is a potential mistake. When viewing timing, what do we see? When looking at timing do we mean when AC appears as the man of lawlessness or the AC demanding worship? I believe the sense in Thessalonians is the latter (although reasonable arguments can be made for the former). In Revelation chapter 11 we see this is where the two witnesses complete their ministry just prior to the 7th trumpet. This would imply their ministry takes place during the first half of the tribulation. The AC is not able to do anything harmful toward them during their ministry until the end. When the angel comes up out of the abyss, this is when the AC has power to kill the two witnesses (not before), Rev 17:8. Since both the two witnesses and the AC are on earth at the same time, and since the AC cannot do anything to the two witnesses during their ministry, it could indicate that that the two witnesses presence physically on earth does restrain the AC until their ministry is complete. There are studies regarding the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord. We can see them even back in Zach 4:11. I believe, as far as timing goes, that the two witnesses are the restrainers...because we see a time and place where they do actually physically carry out a tangible ministry of this nature of sorts on earth before the whole world (and certainly before the angels of God...as audience). Regardless, it would appear to be true that of course any power given to whomever restrains, would be authority given and backed by God and His spirit. Amen. Blessings.

Hi, great topic. My take is that I believe Biden is a globalist and has an interest to find ways to erode American sovereignty. I do not think Biden is a legitimately elected official. I would be surprised if anything good (not bad) came out of his administration. Although Biden looks to be a steering into a globalist and fascist America, I think he is just trying to make up the difference 4 years of Trump stole from globalist momentum of America. And now, in double time, it is a lot easer to notice how globalist politics obviously are not what's best for a nation...but for a world...order...if that makes sense. Blessings.

I am a cessationist and don't believe that believers have extra-biblical dreams or prophesy, or that the sign gifts of the first century are for today. However, I do believe that as we approach the tribulation age, God may provide awareness of this time frame to His saints...and also the world. I am a cessationist, but I also believe that God can do whatever He wants. And much of it I don't really understand. Perhaps as we get closer to the tribulation age, the ways in which God works in his saints may be unique. Although I don't believe God gives extra-biblical dreams today...I would say that God certainly could communicate to us however intimately He may want to. But for us to be mindful that the enemy also wants to deceive us in our understanding of what God "might" be showing us. Having said all of that, it might seem odd that I would also say that I think it is a huge likelihood that Trump is the 1st seal of Revelation 6:2. Most people seem to tie that to the antichrist. And perhaps it is. But for most of the church age Rev 6:2 has been seen as good not evil. And if true, I believe that Trump may well be the fulfillment of that. I can explain in much greater detail if you would like, but one comparative is Isaiah chapter "45" deals with Cyrus (which Israel ironically compared Trump to). Let me know brother. Blessings.

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Hi Omegaman 3.0, R. Hartono & Dennis1209. Interesting conversation. The best I have heard on 23:31 is that it is not the rapture but the gathering of Israel from all over the world after scattering away from the antichrist. If we look at the usage generally in the bible of 4 winds we come to notice that it is referencing an earthy use of language, not a rapture: 10 Bible verses about Four Winds (knowing-jesus.com). In addition, if we look at the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30), we see that the tares are picked up first. I believe the tares reflects what occurs in Rev 14. There are two instances of reaping but they both look like tares. One might be for those who took the mark of the beast, and the other those evil but did not take the mark of the beast perhaps. But in order for the wheat and tares parable to be accurate, the wheat is gathered last. In Rev 14:14-20 the last reaping is the worst. Some think the first reaping is the good or rapture. But chapter 14 seems to be dealing likely with a time in which the earth experiences the sign of the Son of Man. Therefore, the first reaping would seem to be (as chapter 14 is a later chapter in the book--likely indicating a later period in time of the tribulation) something other than a rapture at that late timeframe. The wheat and tares parable would seem to govern Rev 14 not be talking about the rapture...but that the rapture was likely an event much earlier not involving the "nation of Israel" as the wheat and tares parable would...since it was told to Israel under that covenant with the Jews and to them as a parable (about them, not necessarily the church age). So in the way I see it, Matt 24:31 is when the wheat (the nation of Israel) is gathered by angels from around the world and brought into the 1,000 year reign. Not in their resurrection bodies, but making it through the tribulation to this new period in time with extend their life significantly (as people live much longer under the reign of Christ period), if that makes sense? I hope this is to some degree helpful Blessings.

On the video below at the 38:13 mark, Andy gives a chart comparison between the Olivet and UpperRoom Discourse. It is a pretty good video on the topic. Edit by Omegaman 3.0 Our policy here is that videos may only be posted in the Video Section of our forum TCC, so I had to delete it from this thread. I will watch in though, and see what I think. For those interested, the video could be found on youtube by searching for: The Rapture Sermon Series 21. Matthew 24-25 Explained - Part 1 In addition, here is a more specific article on Matthew as it pertains to the rapture: IS THE RAPTURE IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE? Pt. 2 – Grace Gospel Press

The way I understand it is that the Kings appoint themselves. We are not told the regions. But there are 10 toes on Daniels foot of statue. In some parts strong and in some parts weak. But it seems likely it is global because of Rev 13:7-9. HERE IS MY BREAKDOWN OF REVELATION It is highly likely that the 10 kings belong to the second half of the tribulation and not the first (thus they are mentioned toward the end of Revelation in chapter 17). Revelation chapter 13 looks to be the midpoint where AC demands worship. Some believe Rev 13 is the beginning of the triublation, but 13 is after 11. And chapter 11 has us up to the “end” of the trumpets. Chapter 14, 15, and 16 are regarding the second half bowl judgement period. Chapter 12 looks to be an overview from beginning to just past the midpoint. In any case chapters 17 & 18 focus on Mystery Babylon. And Mystery Babylon is destroyed by the very last bowl judgement 7. So there are three indicators that the 10 kings belong in the second half of the tribulation: Rev 13 appears after 11 (which 6-9, and 11 seem to have a linear forward motion–with some flash forwards included). Chapter 10 is highly likely the 144k inauguration for the second half. Please note that chapter 10 comes after chapters 6-9 which go in chronological order of the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets (leaving off at trumpet 6). Chapter 11 picks up trumpet 7. And chapter 15 picks up the bowl judgement that come out of the 7th trumpet. This leaves chapters 10, and 14, as “intermediary” chapters. For example, chapter 10 focuses on the little book and new witnessing. Chapter 14 is a table of contents to the second half. Chapter 15 is the heavenly scene (where as chapter 14 shows the earthly flip side echo of that chapter 15 heavenly scene…like inaugural form heaven and earth). PLEASE NOTICE HOW THE FLOW OF REVELATION LOOKS FROM A WIDE OVERVIEW A. Chapter 1 – John gets vision B. Chapter 2-3 Letters to the churches C. Chapters 4-5 Scene in heaven as John enters via vision D. Chapters 6-9 = seals & trumpets E. Chapter 10 = the little book (likely an inaugural celebration of Israel 144k to now witness) F. Chapter 11 = 2 Witnesses from beginning to mid point of trib G. Chapter 12 = From beginning to just past midpoint of trib. H. Chapter 13 = From midpoint to just past midpoint with AC focus I. Chapter 14 = Table of contents to the bowl judgements (the 3.5 year second half of tribulation) J. Chapter 15 = The opening ceremony of the final judgement cycle (bowls) K. Chapter 16 = The bowl judgements roll out L. Chapter 17 & 18 = Babylon the Great M. Chapter 19 = Armageddon Please notice how Babylon the great is mentioned in between chapters 16 and 19. Chapter 16 is the bowl judgements (including the total destruction of Babylon the Great). Yet we see Babylon the great in the following two chapters. And then, finally the last scene of the tribulation. So it looks like Babylon the Great is positioned and grouped as a second half phenomenon. And if so, likely too the 10 kings (who are just for the last hour primarily–or into the destruction of Mystery Babylon or Babylon the Great). If we look at Daniel chapter 7 all the 10 horns are on “the final” ruling kingdom head. This implies it to be the 7th head of the dragon in Rev 13. And the 7th/8th head in Rev 17. These seem to all be the same implicated head. Which lean toward the “final head.” Or the last of the last. In Rev 13, AC is only given 3.5 years to rule (not seven). These would be the last 3.5 not the first. Many people blend Revelation 13 as the beginning of the tribulation. But the book of Revelation is not layered out like that. Unless we perceive that all judgement sequences go off simultanously or like seal one, trumpet one, then bowl one…THEN seal two, trumpet two, and then bowl 2. but there are many problems with this view. for example Rev 13 says that the AC supernaturally comes back from the dead & demands worship then his image comes alive, talks, and demands the mark of the beast. That would mean all of that would have to happen under the first set. Because the first bowl is the blisters to the mark of the beast. That would likely all occur within the first 2 years while the two witnesses are running around. AC is given 42 months not twice that. It would make more sense that the supernatural 2 witnesses would not be competition with a supernatural AC. It would make sense that once the 2 witnesses ministry is over, the AC will kill them because in trumpet 5, that beast comes out of the abyss and empowers the AC supernaturally to do so. So AC does not have this supernatural power prior to trumpet 5. Hope that helps somewhat of where I am coming from. Blessings.

Yes I understand how you are breaking down commercial Babylon. I agree the 10 kings will be governance over regions. From what I understand, they will emerge toward the middle of the tribulation. So, as a pretribber, I don't believe we will get to see that. But it would appear from bowl 7 that it is a location. So just saying it seems like it would be a powerful nation. And right now (at least for now...lol) that would be America (if we are very close to a tribulation timeframe now).

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. But I have a bit of a different take on some things. What is really nice about the age we live in is the capacity we have to connect with one another. For the most part, global social media access is one of those pretty cool things about our late age. It is really wonderful that so many people can communicate with one another and share from various locations throughout the US and abroad. And for that, I am grateful for your input and the abilities we have to interact with one another. I would say that you may well be correct. We live at a time where there is every indication that the world that then was is quickly becoming a world that now is…and they are marked by stark differences. If anything, it surely can be said that we are in some mode of a transitional age. And transformation is happening rapidly before all of our eyes. Amen. I see from your first post with JDF that you have noticed end time preaching for decades. As for me, I was with the reformed church and they typically have no concept of a coming tribulation. Most of the movement believes the next thing to come is the millennial kingdom. And that things get better and better as the church takes the world by storm and brings in the reign of Christ. Although that is the typical backdrop beliefs of the reformed church, I was fortunate to be in one that believed there would be a coming 7 year tribulation, and I believe that is the accurate stance. Yet still, for most of life there was never any consideration of it being in my lifetime. The reformed church’s focus is much more on our own personal walk with Christ and service in the body. So literally, the thought of end times escaped me for decades. I believe what woke me up the most was a forming UN coalition of what appears to be the Ezekiel 38 leadership lineup: Russia, Turkey, and Iran allied in November of 2017. I know that most churches and the world is asleep. The good news about that is it is kind of impossible even still to go through a time like this and not notice things are not as they have always been. I know still many will not go beyond a glance on that. But at least it can help inform some whom might not have noticed otherwise. As for America, I hear what you are saying. Although I believe how you are seeing may indeed be accurate, my views on such matters are rather very different than what is customarily held to in this forum. I believe America could indeed lose sovereignty and take a back seat as a global national leader. I do consider that as a possibility. But for several other reasons I tend to lean much more in the other direction. And as far as views on this forum (or views in general about prophecy) the consensus is that America will lose sovereignty. I think that is a far greater likelihood during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. There we might agree more. But even there I do have my reservations. I am of the belief that as things stand now (as close as we appear to be to the tribulation age) America stands the greatest chance of being Babylon the Great. And if that is where she is going, then her sovereignty would likely remain intact…and increase rather than decrease likely. I would say the main theological difference in approach I would have with prophecy (differing from the norm in how we think upon prophecy unfolding) is that i believe God puts a much greater premium on the differentiating of the ages. In other words I lean more toward the school of thought that there are certain aspects of transitions that occur during the age of grace and certain aspects given to the age of tribulation. And although there will certainly be some connections and overlap, ultimately i perceive those two ages as very distinctly separate. I would see overlap in what we see with Pope Francis and a desired one world religion forming. I would see overlap in how the globalists want to change and transform the world with a great reset and rule in much more pronounced ways globally. I would see overlap with an increase in witchcraft and devil worship. And of course I would see overlap with how hollow in general the church at large is getting (as New Age philosophy seems to have a transformative effect upon Christianity these days, for sure). I believe there is a measured and contained sense of overlap in general. But things would only get so far up a hill climb onto the tribulation threshold or doorstep. Where my views tend to somewhat radically differ in taking the school of thought notion I go with is this: I believe how God handles His last period of the age of grace is an economy unto itself having its own unique exit strategy. This is something I don’t recall hearing from anyone. So to call it a school of thought might be a bit overly gratuitous. But i think in general some people also subscribe to the notion of severely marked differences between those two ages (albeit the minority). So I’m kind of in the minority of the minority. Which would make me the super minority, lol…i reckon. One major theological difference that would likely be a hurdle of differences between how I am looking at these days and how others are is the theory not to pull tribulation events into the age of grace too quickly. It would make sense that if one day it is the age of grace and the next day the tribulation age that there would be a ramp up and leaning into that period and age and that many things would be “just about” tribulation caliber and primed for that age when it finally does arrive. And although I do see “some” of that, my belief is that the age of grace has a far more distinct difference to it than it would be to pull events of the tribulation into the age of the grace. So that is likely where our fundamental orientations towards how end times unfolds would have stark differences. An example I often use to hopeful clarify this somewhat is “bitcoin.” Now we know there is a one world government that forms during the tribulation. And as we see epochs in time moving in that direction, our orientation is typically upon those things that more so ripely become tools the tribulation age capitalizes on demonically. But in so doing that we may have little to no notion as to bitcoins possible value in the age of grace as oppose to its more nefarious use during the tribulation potentially. When we think of bit coin we think of how money will work in the beast system. But what we might miss is how it might have its own autonomous value and import during the age of grace. For example, in the USA we have a central banking leader called the Federal Reserve. This central banking unit prints our money for us and loans us each dollar it prints with interest attached. So the foundation of the American dollar is “a debt note,” rather than real money and currency. It is a part of a central banking debt system. This monetary policy is not sound money. But coercive at its inception. Bit coin is not a part of that system. They try to find ways to regulate it…but it is difficult. So although eventually during the tribulation age bit coin (or something like it) would highly likely be a part of the beast system and the way the beast system works, during the age of grace (this side of the tribulation) its autonomous value has potential to mitigate against globalist infrastructure and given the right circumstances be an actual weaponized monetary system to challenge the global elites. In theory, something like bitcoin could very much function that way…especially as we begin to realize more and more inflation. So even though digital currency would seem to be a shoe-in for tribulation beast system currency, its potential import during the closing scenes of God’s age of grace, could be a buffer and ally to the commoner against totalitarian world elites. And i think it might actually have that potential. Only God knows if He so chooses the last days in His age of grace to go down like that. But the notion of God having very different plans for the peak season exiting of the age of grace as it transitions into the tribulation age is really not a viable concept on anyone’s mind. And would rather appear to be alien to all the ways in which we think upon prophecy fulfillment. I understand that. But it would also stand to reason, based upon the Character of God (as He does not desire the death of the wicked) that His plans for how He wants to rap up His own age of grace is in the mystery of His person to do so. And although I may not be accurate in thinking this way, I see every bit as much opportunity and path for this unfolding as we are accustomed to more commonly (what I refer to as) pulling the tribulation age into the age of grace. But only God knows. And in that sense I would say that based on the super charged irony we are all noticing, I would see that as louder than a conformity to a tribulation groove par excellence path forming. I would see what we see so loudly equal to a rubber band like pull back of a slingshot that when released would produce results far more akin and of the species of “final age of grace days” unique…more than a species of the tribulation to come. But of course, I could be incorrect. Just thought to share that at this point, as my views are somewhat well known on this forum but might be notions you had not come across previously. In any case, blessings. And if nothing else, see you up there :slight_smile: