AdHoc

I don't believe that anyone who had read my posts would pose such questions. I have continually maintained that at resurrection the man's parts come together. I even gave the scriptures - 1st Kings 17:22 and Luke 8:55. It is sad that men come to this - especially on Christian Forum

Your proffered verse concerns those saints who suffered at the hand of the fleshly. It is written concisely. It would read, if the Holy Spirit was not so economical; For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are (NOW) dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. In your answer, please tells us why Jesus Christ must preach to men in Hades who have already, in their lifetime, heard the gospel, severed themselves from riotous living, judged themselves and have lived according to the spirit?? Maybe you add how, 1. if these men were dead (as you maintain) dead men have flesh? And 2. dead men "LIVE" (according to the spirit) when they have "given UP their ghost" - Eccl.3:21

This, my friend, is the grammar. May the rest judge: 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles ... (Eph 4:9–11.) It says that HE descended to the lower parts of the earth. "HE" is Jesus - the same HE that gave gifts. But Acts 2 says; 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Ac 2:26–27. While HE was in Hades His flesh "rested in hope". Why? because the resurrection was immanent. But this hope was conditional on His SOUL not staying in HADES. It is not rocket science. Scripture says that HE was Jesus and Jesus was His SOUL. Now, let's hear your understanding.

Of course it is my conclusion. I have outlined, with scripture that the Lord "gave UP the ghost" after saying that His Father should receive His spirit. Ecclesiastes 3:21 agrees. James 2:26 says that a man without a spirit is dead. In Luke 8:55 a person was resurrected. It needed her spirit to "come to her" Jesus said He would descend to the heart of the earth for three days (Mat.12:40). Ephesians 4:8-10 says that Jesus FIRST DESCENDED. John 20:17 says that He had NOT YET ASCENDED. Acts 2:24-34 says that Jesus was in Hades but it could not hold Him. David though is still there in Hades while his body is in his TOMB in Jerusalem. That is, BOTH our Lord Jesus and David met the same fate at death, but Jesus has left Hades while David has not. David will (future tense) be raised up to rule Israel (Jer.30:9). This will be after the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16). But Jesus has been RISEN for nearly 2,000 years. The Apostles touched Him on resurrection night. Now it is your turn to document YOUR CONCLUSION.

I more or less agree with what you have written. But there is a part you have left out. 1. Can a righteous God require that the innocent pay for the wicked.? It was the Father's will, but Jesus must decide 2. Hebrews 12:7 says: Hebrews 12:1–3 says; 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. The red indicates that a reward was set before Him - an incentive. That He was not in agreement with what lay before Him is clear from His words in Gethsemane. "IF IT BE POSSIBLE .... NEVERTHELESS ... and then He sweated blood for fear.

Up to now you have maintained that neither Jesus nor believers face judgment. I have shown them having to stand judgment. You may post your verses that we avoid judgment, but if there is evidence that we do stand in judgment, you are obliged to show both sides of the story. Otherwise the Bible is contradictory. My posting just did that for you. 1. We pass from judgment concerning our sins as Christ has taken them upon Himself. 2. We must give account of our stewardship before the Bema (a traveling throne) after rapture. This judgment decides REWARD and LOSS - not our eternal state. The Jew is judged by Law (Rom.2:12) but is forgiven because of Covenant (Rom.11:27) The Nations face the books of their works a thousand years later. Matthew 7:21-23 shows the severity of our judgment. There are some of us who knew Jesus and were furnished with the power to do great things, but did our own thing. The grammar dos not say that the works were "iniquitous". It says that those who knew the lord and had His power (Mk.16:17), are "workers of iniquity" - indicating that they did not wait for instructions from their General.

Thank you for your informative posting. If you insist of using an unusual translation like "the air-breather" I have no objection. What is important is the way scripture uses the word. This is answered in two sentences. 1. Man was "formed" from the clay, given a spirit which held his vitality (Jas.2:26) and man BECAME a living soul, it being not in existence before it is said by scripture to have been created. 2. From this creation came the man. The Bible calls man a "SOUL" (Gen.12:5, 17:14 etc, etc,) So when a man does anything it is his "soul" that is the man. At death the three parts are sundered - the body returning to the clay, the spirit returning to God and the SOUL going to a place under the earth called Hades. There is no complexity with the structure of man and the Bible with one of the best pedigrees was translated by 49 of the best Hebrew and Greek students of their day. A further study of the SOUL of man will show that it is made up of his mind, emotions and will. The SOUL of Jesus, therefor is Jesus. This is doubly established by Jesus using proper names concerning Lazarus and David. Matthew 12:40 places Hades "in the heart of the earth" and the road there is via the "bottomless pit", or, "The Abyss". It is a prison of sorts because "keys" are required to get people out of it. In every case in scripture where the direction of the soul is given in resurrection, it records that the man ROSE. The travels of our Lord Jesus in death are well and simply documented. He, having power over His death, gave "UP" the ghost" at 3 p.m. According to James 2:26 this rendered Him dead. His body was placed in a tomb on the surface of the earth. His spirit went to the Father. His SOUL went to Hades. By special order of the Father, His body did not start decomposition. Three days later Jesus ROSE. David, who was in Hades with Him, did not. He must wait till Jesus "COMES" (1st Cor.15:23). Jesus first met Mary and reported that He had not yet ASCENDED to the Father, but was about to do so. That night He had returned and allowed the Apostles to touch Him and declared that His substance was not spirit, but flesh and bones. His wounds were present. 1st Thessalonians 5:23 says that a "whole" man is body, soul and spirit. At resurrection the sundered man is again "whole" (1st Ki.17:22, Lk.8:55). These three parts of man are distinct and different. There is no dispute about them and they each have their function in a living man. A dead man, as David is, languishes in Hades - that is, his SOUL.

And so the chaos is complete. You have pitted scripture against scripture - making the Bible to contradict itself. But let us answer now lest the infidel gloat. God has two righteouses. Aaron has a special ritual for the day of Atonement. If he follows the ritual precisely he may enter the Holy of Holies and survive. If he does what he likes he will be slain. But if he do the precise ritual on any other day he dies. That is, God has established a righteousness or justification (if you like) and Aron must fulfill a ritual to survive. But Aaron is a man under Law. he might do the ritual of Yom Kippur correctly for 40 years, but if he breaks the Law of Moses he will die. It is up to him to keep the Law. And so he establishes HIS righteousness. The Christian is the same. God is a holy God. You will not survive approaching Him even if you have kept yourself from sin, for our best works are like sanitary towels (lit. Heb - Isa.64:6). So God establishes His standard by the works of Christ and takes that righteousness and imputes it to men. There is a condition though. You must believe in Jesus, His position and His Work. If you do this (have faith) you are seen as having the righteousness of Christ and can stand before God without judgment. But the Christian has been saved by Christ's work FOR A REASON. He is to display Jesus in his disposition before men and he s to build the Church. For this he must give an account of himself. In this matter the Christian is REWARDED or suffers loss. It is his behavior AFTER salvation that gets him a crown and ges him entry into the kingdom and the Wedding Feast. So for justification before God you must put on Christ (Rom.13:14, Gal.3:27), but for entry into the Wedding Feast YOU have to "prepare YOUR garment" (Rev.19:7-8). And so, my verses decide whether I may be a steward of the Lord and be a guest at the Wedding Feast, and your scriptures decide whether I may approach the Tree of Life. Take care.

And now you have created more difficulty for yourself. If there is no judgment then what means; 1. 1 Pe 4:17 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us . 2. Romans 14:10–12 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 3. 2 Co 5:8–10 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 4. Mt 25:19. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them

I appreciate your point of view and thank you for the exchange. But let's discuss some scripture. It'll either support or refute our opinions.

Maybe you can answer the scriptures I posted and their grammar. Our Lord Jesus DID something that the Father highly prized. The Father administered a REWARD. This implies that the Father JUDGED Him worthy. Our Lord Jesus had every right to refuse the Father's request that the innocent die for the guilty. He indicated in Gethsemane that He would rather the cup pass. But, despite sweating blood, He agreed to the horrors that any man who takes the SINS (yes, all of the needed to be paid for). If the Father esteemed Him highly AND REWARDED HIM, then God made a judgment. In our case, when the Lord returns He sits on a traveling throne and we must give an account. In Hebrews Jesus tells Mary that He must ascend to His Father (Jn.20:17). Hebrews tells why. To PRESENT His blood (Heb.9:12). I cannot see any other meaning to be "counted worthy" without somebody making a JUDGMENT. 1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses ... (Heb 3:1–3.)

People love to speculate, and love it more when they find themselves able to be sensational. The Lord did not give the last pope as a sign. He gave the Church four signs 1. Israel (Judah) being able to practice the Law again. This needs a Temple in Jerusalem 2. A degradation of moral standard by the nations to that of Noah and Lot's days 3. The "revealing of the man of sin". He comes out of the Abyss 4. A falling away of the Church (can it fall much further) The last pope will be when the ten kings who give their power to the Beast destroy the Whore (Rev.17)

Dear Brother, you have gone to great lengths to make a simple statement mean something else. Our Lord Jesus gave a sign of a man who went "down" - Jonah. He then ROSE after 3 days. Language transmits ideas and there is NO AMBIGUITY and every reason to believe that our Lord went "down" to the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40). Acts Chapter 2 says that God did not leave His "SOUL" in Hades. There is no such thing as a "fictional reading". There is only "reading" and believing what you have just read.

Our Lord did many wonders in His lifetime. A man driving out demons is probably one of the highest displays of God's government. Raising Lazarus was probably one of the highest displays of power. But these are in answer to problems. The raising up of the Church is His Father's heart's desire. In one He served His Father by bringing in the Kingdom, in the other He gladdened a Father Who had had this desire from eternity. Both are required, but one is higher. "The Church" is an unfortunate word. The Greek is so much more expressive - "Ekklesia" - "the gathering of the called out ones"! Our God is a social God. He loves fellowship. For being faithful God rewards Caleb with "Hebron", meaning "fellowship". The Tabernacle is the "Tent of MEETING". But more than this ... ... The members of His Church are His members - bone and flesh for men to openly display a hidden God ... At the same time it is a spiritual House for a God Who is a Spirit ... At the same time it is a physical WOMAN for the Father's SON - a MAN ... At the same time it is the Father's divine government here on earth for it has the KEYS of the Kingdom In the Church, God realizes his deepest longing. And we, are the called-out ones who have been given the lofty honor of being part of the fulfillment. What dignity, what an inheritance, what profound privilege !!!

May the reader judge if you addressed my points or not. But I will answer your belief that Jesus was not judged. What then is this? 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (Eph.1:20–23). And further, you again deny the veracity of scripture for Hebrews 9:27 says: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 SO CHRIST ...!!! (Heb 9:27–28a). The word "SO" means "IN LIKE MANNER"

Sorry I'm late with an answer. Family business! The incense is Christ prayers and praise TOGETHER with the saint's prayers and worship (Rev.5:8). The acacia wood depicts Christ's Humanity The gold of the altar depicts His divinity His prayers carry the authority of MEDIATOR The blood on the four corners shows sin taken care of The coals of the altar of sacrifice show Christ has paid the full retribution of the saint's sins Hope this opens an new avenue of study for you - the meaning of the furniture of the Tabernacle. God bless

Dear brother, the writer of Ecclesiastics could be mentally retarded and ALL he said would be true. The writer was inspired. His words are "God breathed". Once you deviate from an absolute belief in the truth of this, you make mistakes. A man is made of three parts - body, soul and spirit (Gen.3:7, 1st Thess.5:23). From the moment of creation in Genesis 3, man is called a SOUL. In Acts 2:24-34 a Psalm is quoted by Peter in which David wrote of the Lord Jesus. It reported that God would not leave His SOUL in Hades. At the moment of His death in Luke 24, Jesus gave UP His spirit to the Father. Ecclesiastes 12:7 is absolutely true and Jesus followed, like all men that die, the truth of "He gave UP the ghost". His SOUL descended to Hades. The truth that Jesus followed an established pattern is true for ALL men. If one man does something different, Jesus looses His PREEMINENCE in ALL things. Your next mistake is to entitle the rich man of Luke 16 "loveless". He is not recorded as being loveless. He is recorded as calling Abraham "father" which makes him a Jew. If so, the he broke the Law with Lazarus (Deut.15:7). But judgment only comes after RESURRECTION (Dan.12:2). He could not possibly have been in torment by an action of God, otherwise he would have to have been resurrected. All men, including Jesus, are only judged after they are RISEN. Your next mistake is Luke 16:22 does not say GOOD people are carried to Abraham's Bosom. How good were Abraham's fathers to which He was GATHERED TO? Where they not idol worshipers? (Gen.15:15, Josh.24:2). You see brother, the man who starts a rumor that scripture is not accurate starts to make mistakes. I'm sure you are fervent brother who loves the Word, but if you change anything in scripture you are on the way to disaster.

I understand it to represent the odor of Christ's substitutionary death for justice mingled with the praise and worship of the saints. The furniture of the Tabernacle is almost exclusively representative of Christ and His efficacy. In the Holy Place we have the journey of the saint from divine light (The Lampstand) to the Shewbread Altar (John 6) to the threshold of a choice between going alone into the Holy of Holies and to certain death or via Christ to have audience with a most holy God. The shittim wood (Acacia) always shows Christ's humanity, the Gold shows His divinity. The incense is a one-off potion that is never to be repeated. It shows Christ one with the praise and worship of Jehovah, but must go up by fire - showing Christ's efficacy. and His Mediatorial service.

True. But I'll go with your first statement, or, your previous post. The Tabernacle in heaven is very prominent in Revelation - which has not been fulfilled yet.. The curtain, or "Veil" might be rent, but the Altar of Incense is still in place. We are still to enter in the name of Jesus and we are still to pray in His Name. It is true that we can connect with Jehovah anywhere, anytime, but that is because the human spirit is mobile. God is still a holy God and we created beings are still profane. It is still fully up to Jesus whether we get access to God or not. This is no better shown in our preparation for the Lord's Table. Judge your self (the altar). Deal with dirt (the Laver). Let His light reveal our real position (the Lampstand). Eat His word (the shewbread altar) and let Jesus be your incense (the golden altar). This whole House is His Body. This whole House is your body. Come defiled and you get sick and even die. I probably sound pedantic, but the oil of anointing never touches Aaron' flesh (Ps.133)

Your reply is read and noted. Thanks.

Unprintable ... was it? Good evening esteemed sister. It 12:30 a.m. here, so I'm about to run into my room and sail between the sheets. Have a great evening and read my posting slowly. Check my statements carefully against scripture.

You're always so courteous. Thanks for your answer. My first answer is to ask you to read each point slowly again and then point out where I missed to the point. If each statement can be backed by scripture. If they are all correct, then I have a good argument. What often happens is that when one hears something for the first time and it is in conflict with what you have held for decades, you tend to fit it against what you believe and nt wat the scripture says. But let me ask you three questons which you don't have to answer to me, but which will give you something to think about. 1. In your knowledge of grammar, is the Lord Jesus the subject or the Spirit that raised Him? Here it is in context; 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which (SPIRIT) also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1st Pet.3:18–20). ... ... 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to TARTAROO, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2nd Pet.2:4–5) Does not the grammar of the end of verse 18 and the beginning of 19 make the Holy Spirit the subject and only explain that it is the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Rom.8)? Does not John 16:8 give this as the Holy Spirit's duty on the earth? 2. In the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man, would it not be a lie if our Lord Jesus said that Abraham did something that he actually did not do? Using proper names makes the narrative true. Our Lord is TRUTH. He would never misrepresent a situation. Now consider this. At death Lazarus would have put off his body. Gone would be his hunger and his pain. Why then did he need to be comforted in Abraham's bosom? 3. Would you agree with the following: If you read John 3:5 accurately, is ENTRY into the Kingdom based on faith or is it based on what you DO? I'll give you a hint. Read Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 and tell me if ENTRY is based on what you DO or what you believe. If you are not sure after these two witnesses, I recommend reading Mathew 19 and deciding if the rich young man could ENTER the Kingdom by faith or by selling all and giving it away? Note that Jesus uses "life" and the Kingdom interchangeably and then his disciples used it to mean "be saved". Now consider ... honestly ... if the Thief next to Jesus could ENTER the Kingdom when he admits that he has only done evil? If you are brutally honest you will come to the conclusion that there was not a chance for the thief to be found righteous IN HIS WORKS. Add the fact that he did not have time to be Baptized. And you will then notice that Jesus DID NOT PROMISE HIM ENTRY into the KINGDOM. Paradise has nothing to do with the Kingdom! Paradise is for "comforting" the dead in Christ. There is more, but I'll have my brethren, who are not as gentle as you, on my neck. Think about it! Don't forget to read my posting again - critically.

Hi Frits and welcome to the Forum. My best answer is to ask you to read my posting again. I specially tried to make it clear that the preaching was before the crime. "The Holy Spirit inspired Noah to preach "righteousness" (2nd Pet.2:5) The grammar says; "By which (Spirit) - that it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching by inspiring Noah. Noah did not preach to angels in prison. He was a preacher of "righteousness"- What one should do and not why these spirits landed in prison. You probably missed Luke 20:35-36 which says that angels can't die. They could not be touched by the water. They are in prison because somebody more powerful put them there. The preaching would have taken place BEFORE they mixed with women. "Righteousness" is not "judgment". Once you see my point you'll agree that the rest of your answer is based on a wrong reading/understanding of what I said. I don't blame you though because some of the cleverest men in renown Houses of Learning make this mistake. Tartaroo is probably adjacent to Hades as both the Beast (a man) and the supernatural creatures of Revelation 9 use the same "Abyss" The grammar reads "THE bottomless pit"

How sweet is the pure gospel in all its simplicity. Well done!

Here are some facts to help get to the bottom of this. The context of the discussion was the sign nailed to the cross that Pilate ordered. It declared Jesus "KING of the Jews". The Kingdom the thief spoke of must therefore be Israel The result of the FAITH of the malefactor would entitle him to rebirth and so make him fit for the Kingdom of heaven on earth (Jn.3:3). But he had no Baptism so he could not ENTER the Kingdom of God (Jn.3:5) Paradise is NOT the Kingdom of God. Paradise is in Hades under the earth. Matthew 12:40 has Jesus spending 3 days "in the heart of the earth" and Ephesians 4:9-10 has Him "descending FIRST". John 20:17 has Him NOT ascended YET when He met Mary. Acts 2 has Jesus released from HADES after three days. Paradise is under the earth. God's Kingdom is heavenly and COMES to earth). Except for John 3:3-5, every mention of ENTERING the Kingdom of God (heaven) is attached to WORKS. E.g Matthew 7:21-23, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc. The malefactor admitted that his works required his DEATH - not the Kingdom. There is no record of Jesus preaching to anybody after death. The grammar of of 1st Peter 3:18-19 concerns what the Spirit did. It means; "Jesus, raised by the Spirit BY which (Spirit) Noah THEN was inspired to preach to the spirits who are NOW in prison". Haded might be a prison but it is a prison of the SOULS of men - not spirits. Tartarus is a prison for ANGELS which are spirits. That is, Noah preached to the angels who mixed with women, but who kept not their estate and are NOW in prison. In death there is NO WORK (Heb.4:10) Hope this helps.