AdHoc

Hi guys, there is another thing to consider. Should we be looking at the host of heaven for signs? Should we be looking as ANY sign? Or shall the just live by FAITH? Heb.11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

They say that a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer to. And you've given some of us a right runabout. The question cannot be answered for there are no verses for a 7-year Great Tribulation. But you must be applauded for your obfuscation. You added the rapture into the equation. The rapture is to move people from one point to another and has no bearing on the start of the Great Tribulation. I don't mean this as a criticism. You challenged the men and they now have to admit that they need to go back to the drawing board. But, I think after a week you can bless us with the truth. But we'll be watching you because Jeremiah and Ezekiel have Israel scattered to the "four winds" and that is where God's "elect" are gathered from by angels in Matthew 24:31. And according to Ezekiel 37 they are gathered back to their Land after being resurrected. The Church on the other hand is gathered to the clouds. And all this is moot because the Lord consistently said that only the Father in heaven knew this date - much like no one knew the date of the beginning of the flood and Noah went in seven days before. Why seven days? Well, we don't know the answer but it shows that we cannot calculate. But Israel is different. They have the prophets and one of their most revered, Daniel, predicted a seven year period, NOT OF TRIBULATION, but of rule by a Gentile king. It is only when this Gentile king claims deity and a place in the Holy of Holies that God's wrath. The time when this happens is not known because 2nd Thessalonians 2 says he must be "revealed" first. Then it says that something "hinders" which must be removed. Then only can he involve himself POLITICALLY by residency in Jerusalem and be supported by ten kings. The literal of Daniel 9:26-27 is that he "strengthens THE Covenant". The article implies that the Covenant is in place but weak. And surely, there is only one Covenant in history that has the daily oblation - that of Sinai. Jews do not read the New Testament, but if a learned Jew was to read the New Testament, he would know that the Christ was predicted seven years after a Gentile king allowed the daily oblation again - and that needs a Temple and altar. It is only after three and a half years of reign that the Beast inserts himself in the Holy of Holies and God's wrath is released for the final three and one half years. So, as summary, the date of the first rapture cannot be calculated. The date of the "revealing" of the man of sin cannot be calculated. But once Israel are sacrificing the daily oblation, it will be three and a half years to the Beast entering the Holy Place. This sets off the Great Tribulation which is amply recorded as 1260 days, 42 moths and a time, time and half a time.

I once asked a dog why he barks. He barked at me. I wondered why he couldn't just be human for once. And so it is with the unregenerate man. He has a nature that can be disciplined for a short while, but he reverts to the Adamic nature in a few seconds. We can't change, just as the dog cannot. But God can. The trouble with God's chosen People Israel, was that God knew their condition but they didn't. So they had to find out. Thus we read in Deuteronomy 8:- 2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. 3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live I like Willy Nelson, but the human needs quite some cooperation from God to beat Pride. By himself .... well ... that dog is still a dog

I can't see any wording that connects this prophecy with a newly established Israel. If I were to connect Isaiah 28 to anything it would Judas Iscariot. He made a Covenant for 30 pieces of silver which later led to death and Hades. The Apostles were mostly Galileans which would make them Ephraimites, so also Judas. Verse 16 changes the theme to the Lord Jesus. But to each his own. Go well.

I think that you need more commentary to sell your thesis. For one, you can show why, where and when God authorized Israel to make Covenants with the heathen. Second, you can show Israel, which is under Law that says and eye for eye, can make peace Covenants when they have been attacked and the weak and children raped and killed. Contrariwise to your thesis, God decreed war "from generation to generation" on Amalek for doing this very things to Israel. And maybe it would strengthen your cause to explain why God wants foreigners not dwelling in the Land He gives to Israel. I am aware that the exegesis of Daniel 9 is controversial, but the singular "HE" is a good place to start. Who is the singular "HE" which will "strengthen THE Covenant" with MANY (not all)" - especially a Covenant containing the daily oblation. Next, if "HE" is plural, not only has God made a grammatical error, but the implication s that it is "HE" that is in authority. Next, if God makes a prophecy that Israel should be in Covenant with the Gazans, is Israel greater than God so as to annul His prophecy? Finally, where in the Covenant with BOTH Abraham and with Moses does God show intention to share Canaan with heathen? A lot needs to be explained.

I'm not a councilor, but one thing God loves is the truth. Well said. It's refreshing. I've got hope for you. Jacob wrestled with God and limped fore ever after that. At the end of his life Pharaoh asked him how old he was. Jacob answered; "my days are few and evil". Then he blessed Pharaoh. Hebrews tells us that the greater blesses the lessor. God had still done His Work and made the "Supplanter" greater than Pharaoh.

In our last debate about this you chose to avoid comment on my scriptures. I'm happy to let you have the last word, as, without commentary, they're just an opinion.... But no, it may benefit someone else, so, briefly 1. The Body of Christ does not have to be female or male. In John Chapter 2 "IT" is neuter. His Body is Christ's enlargement for a physical testimony on earth. It is not for marriage. 2. Who said anything about "heaven"? This is a problem for you because of other doctrines you hold. Added to this, as last time - which you avoided - I proposed that God's Word says that the Marriage Feast is LIKE the Kingdom. The Kingdom is on earth, and lasts 1,000 years. Added to this, the foolish Virgins had to buy from those who sell. The wise bought their extra oil in their lifetime. Therefore, those who sell must be on earth. 3. What has the Body of Christ to do with marriage? It is that which came out of Christ in death that is His Wife. She was redeemed for 30 pieces of silver - the redemption of a woman. In 2nd Corinthians 11 she is a Virgin and Ephesians 5 speaks for itself; 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. 4. Your insinuation is that God died. God is the Husband of Israel and He is NOT the Lamb. He is Husband by Covenant (Ezek.16:8), not by Israel coming out of His side. Christ is Husband by ORIGIN seeing as we are "bones of is bone and flesh of His flesh". God decrees; "It is not good that MAN be alone". The Church is Christ's companion. God had four duties fro mankind, (i) to be His physical expression in a physical creation, (ii) to be His spiritual House for He is a Spirit, (iii) to bring into order and rule the physical earth, and (iv) to be a companion "up to the standard of" Christ THE MAN. As a ruler we are kings (male, or "Man-Child")). As a Temple/House we are neuter. As worshiper we are "subjects" and "servants". As a Bride we female. You can't lump them together. They are highly individual and one does not annul another.

That's it! It is literally "CAUGHT AWAY", but the clouds are up, so the context allows the translator to says "caught up". But in 2nd Corinthians 12 Paul is NOT "caught UP" to Paradise. Paradise is DOWN. Matthew 12:40 says that Jesus would spend his time dead "in the heart of the earth" - DOWN. This is confirmed twice. To Mary in John 20:17 he says that even though He has been dead for three days and in the Garden of tombs for a time, "He had NOT YET ASCENDED to His Father". And Ephesians 4:8-10 says He "FIRST" Descended! So when He said to the thief next to Him that TODAY they would be in Paradise together, it was "DOWN". Since there is not a single hint in the Bible that Paradise has gone anywhere else, Paul must have been "caught DOWN" to Paradise. Think about it. It pays to be accurate.

Luke 21 presents a challenge. Unlike Matthew 24 and 25, it deals mostly with AD 70. It also uses a style that the prophets use, but which we Westerners don't usually use. It makes huge jumps if the events of the intervening years don't apply to the theme. Luke 21 deals with the siege of Jerusalem. But in verse 24 a sudden change is rcorded. It reads; 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Verse 24 predicts Gentile occupation of Jerusalem till Gentile government is take away at Armageddon. But verse 25 makes a jump of 2,000 years to the events surrounding the coming of Jesus. Let us trace our Lord's Coming. Scripture says that He now abides in His Father's Throne "above all heavens". But in Revelation 4 we find Him in heaven. In 1st Thessalonians 4 we find Him in the clouds. And in Matthew 24 we find Him coming out of the clouds like lightening. Our Lord's COMING is ONE JOURNEY with some stops - like if a man took a train from New York to Los Angeles with stops on Chicago and Las Vegas. So when our Lord says in verse 27 that He will come in glory, pomp and power ON the clouds, He is still addressing those of Jerusalem. The "redemption" that verse 28 speaks of is those in and around Jerusalem. But from verse 29 he makes a REVERSAL. He speaks of an event BEFORE the Great Tribulation - the Fig Tree and its leaves. He then warns that the Great Tribulation will come suddenly. If any Christian is involved with the things of this earth, the Great Tribulation will catch him unawares. That could only happen if THEY WERE STILL ON EARTH! Then He says that if the moral condition was right ("watching and praying"), the Christian would ESCAPE. But it is CONDITIONAL! He must be COUNTED WORTHY! The implication is that Christians will be caught unawares and WILL NOT BE COUNTED WORTHY. It goes further to say that the escape is to "stand before the Son of man". And where, in His journey, is the Lord just before the Great Tribulation? IN THE CLOUDS!!! Luke 21:35-36 says that those counted worthy will miss the Great Tribulation by being with Christ in the clouds. BUT NOT ALL CHRISTIANS! Only THE WORTHY!

I'm quite with you. The rapture appears more than once. The Church however, has a special rapture - for escape. The Greek word "harpazo" means "Snatched AWAY". It shows movement but NOT direction. Enoch and Elijah are snatched to heaven by the context. Philip, in Acts 8 is snatched HORIZONTALLY to Azotus. In Matthew 24:31, only Israel was scattered to the "four winds". Ezekiel 37 shows them resurrected in their foreign lands and brought back to Israel by angels (Matt.24:31). So this too will be a rapture - but horizontally.

Hi y'all @RdJ @Dennis1209 @WilliamL @Vine Abider @Marilyn C @Michael37 @farouk and the rest. One of the most powerful tools used by the Bible to help with understanding is the TYPE. A Lamb is a TYPE of Christ, Adam and Eve are a TYPE of Christ and the Church and Hagar is a TYPE of the Law. A Type is usually a brief picture showing the overriding truth. One should not build doctrine on a Type, but one should take the lesson shown seriously. I propose THREE TYPES of a split rapture. 1. The Transfiguration of Jesus. Jesus said that some would not see death until they saw Him COMING in His Kingdom. The High Mountain shows an elevated position akin to being raptured to the clouds. Jesus appears in all His glory. Elijah speaks for the LIVING who are changed and then raptured. Moses speaks for the dead and resurrected saints. While Moses is chastised temporally his faithfulness and service are not forgotten. His body is fought for and He is in the Kingdom. But of even more import is that only THREE disciples are invited on high. NINE must remain in the valley and be overcome by a demon. 2. Abraham and Lot. The judgment of the "days of Lot" are come. Both Abraham and Lot are called righteous. 2nd Pet 2:7-9a says; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations But Abraham is on the plain of Mamre at Hebron which means "fellowship". Hebron is about 2,500 ft above sea level. Lot was in the "well-watered plain of Jordan" the lowest point on earth. God and angels visit Abraham and he knows God's plan of judgment. Only angels visit Lot. Lot is saved but does not ascend to Hebron (fellowship). His wife had eyes for Sodom, his daughters seduced him, Lot got drunk and produced two implacable enemies of Israel and he ended in Zoar, which means "insignificant". 3. "The days of Noah". God is about to judge universally. No corner of the earth will be left uncovered by the waters of death. One man "walked with God" and was "Taken" - Enoch. Another man is also justified. He speaks for those born again for "he was PERFECT in his GENERATION" - Noah. But he must stay with the clean and unclean and later is father of a cursed one - Ham. The raven is unclean. It did not return because it found dead bodies floating and could rest and eat the dead. Enoch was "taken" - Noah, of the same line, is "left" In conclusion we turn to what really happens, as spoken by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:32-51. The days are like Noah's. Violence, mating with angels, and man devising ONLY evil ALL the time. The Lord speaks a Parable. Parables are for the Church only (Matt.13:10-11). The teaching is about "servants". Except for the Fig Tree, no sign is given. The "servants" do not look for events, but for a moral condition. Jesus does not come like lightening. he comes as a Thief. A Thief comes stealthily at the circadian low. He comes for what is precious. he "TAKES" and goes. What is "LEFT" had lessor value. The word "taken" concerning those "taken" in the flood is "airoo". It means snatched violently like our sins are taken away on the cross by God's judgment. But of the Two working the mill, the one"Taken" is "paralambano" - meaning," to take with as a well known acquaintance" Joseph "TOOK" (paralambano) Mary with to Egypt to save her from Herod's decree. Added to this, the grammar divides those "Taken" (airoo) in the flood. Verse 40 starts with "THEN". This indicates an additional event beside the flood. "The woman screamed. THEN the police came running". But most telling is verse 42. The word "Therefore" shows the conclusion of the lesson. But who is the lesson for? THOSE WHOSE LORD WAS COMING - "Your Lord"- Christians! And so, the evidence concerning a multi-rapture with Christians taken according to their maturity and faithfulness, is much.

Thanks for sharing. You are probably wondering why there are few, or no responses. It is not that God does not give dreams, but that you are the only one who had that specific dream. No one can refute you, but no one can confirm you. In the case of Cornelius in Acts Chapter 10 BOTH he AND peter received a Word from the Lord. There is another reason for mostly silence from the rest. In John Chapter 4 our Lord Jesus instructed men that God had a new PLACE to meet with Him - the human spirit (V.24). Now a dream is nice, and it left you with feelings. It was good for your SOUL. But your SPIRIT was not stimulated, and you walked away without instructions. Dreams are nice, but God speaking in your spirit is edifying (Rom.8:14-16).

Little men will play politics. A Great God looks ... and laughs. He always has the final say. Nebuchadnezzar was the most fearsome autocrat. He was NOTHING when it came to Jehovah. Daniel 4:24–25; 24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: 25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. Jehovah has made PROMISES. His honor is at stake. His reputation is at stake. Run for cover ... !!!

I promised a few words on the Covenants. Basically there are three Covenants. Some expositors count more, but I apply Hebrews 9:18-22 strictly. A Covenant with God must be declared so and ratified in blood. 1. That with Noah. Noah, new father of all men, represented "all flesh" in the Covenant of the rainbow (Gen.9:17). It is valid as long as winter and summer exist. 2. The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham and his Seed via Isaac and Jacob (Gen.15). It is an "everlasting Covenant". 3. The Covenant of Law made ONLY with Israel (Ex.34:27). It contains "sub-Covenants" for the Priesthood, Passover and the Royal House of David In Jeremiah 31:31-33 God promises a New Covenant. It's attributes are that will replace that of Sinai with Moses, NOT in the conditions of Law (for the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass), but in the way it is recorded. The change is not in its terms, but in a change of the Israelite. In the latter days, when Israel s ONE HOUSE again, it will replace that of Sinai. It was ratified in the blood of Jesus and is an "everlasting Covenant" (Jer.32:40) The Church is under the Covenant of Noah. You may not eat blood. As the Lord's Kingdom over the Nations has not ye come, the Church has no business in government, so the death penalty should be supported but not called for by the Christian. The Covenant of Promise was not made with us, but once Israel had rejected the Kingdom, and the Church become Heirs of the world, God, through very clever process, makes us SEED of Abraham but not seed of Jacob (Gal.3:29, Rom.4:13). Basically, God uses three LEGAL methods to include us in the Covenant of Promise. 1. He uses the fact that we were and are IN Christ (Jn.12:24) to make us seed of Abraham based on Christ and not on Jacob 2. He creates a "Commonwealth" of Israel. A Commonwealth gives trade privileges to another country without that country losing its sovereignty. The Christians become eligible for the Promises but without becoming an Israelite (Eph.2.11-13) 3. Adopting us. Adoption makes an outsider HEIR. We believers become Heirs to the Promises without being blood brothers of Israel The Covenant of Law and the New Covenant of Law have nothing to do with the Church. Israel was offered FAITH which would have given them a heavenly birth, ended the matter of Law, and made them heirs to the world. But they refused it. A Covenant is not easily annulled so what you see in the last 2,700 years is simply the terms of the Covenant of Law applied to Israelites as per lawful terms within the Contract. Any attempt by the Church to become involved in Law is a serious matter - as Galatians and Hebrews makes clear. The objection of many scholars that Jesus included the Church in the New Covenant is incorrect. Our Lord instituted the Lord's Table for the Church, and, as a second and separate move, ratified the New Covenant with His blood as per Hebrews 9. Jeremiah 31 is very clear. The New Covenant is made with ISRAEL ALONE. Jeremiah 31 tells WHEN- when Israel is ONE NATION again. And Israel is one nation again AFTER their resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and after Jesus gathers them from the "four winds" - to which ONLY Israel was scattered (Matt.24:31). Ephesians 2:15 puts the matter to rest. God makes the New Man "OUT OF TWAIN". The "TWO" are (i) The Nations, and (ii) the Nation of Israel. God does not make a New Nation from the rest of men. He take SOME from Israel, and He takes SOME from the Gentiles. For this New Man the Law is crucified with Christ. The Law requires Israelites not to have relations with Gentiles. It is therefore THE ENEMY of the UNITY required in Ephesians 4. The New Man is a fully new creature. It has its own birth by the holy Spirit. IT does not, and cannot have a past. Ethnicity is abolished (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). I hope that gives some food for thought.

Noted. Thanks.

The question always is; "do we study the Bible first by way of a bird's eye and then do the detail - or, the other way around?" Well, we all know that a puzzle is much easier to do with the picture on the box before our eyes. So lets take an elevated position. God has a plan and joins Himself to man for its realization. The basic plan is; 1. Have a physical and visible expression of Himself - the invisible God 2. Have a ruler of this earth that depends on, and obeys Him 3. Have a spiritual House to dwell on earth 4. Have a physical Bride for His Son - the Man Jesus For points 1 and 3 the man has to have a DISPOSITION - a Character that is expressed by his physical actions. For point 2 the man needs God's POWER. For point 4 man needs to be in Christ and come out of Him like Eve did. In coming out of her man has the same substance and vitality as Him except he is not the SOURCE. For various reasons the first man did not carry out God's instructions and his DISPOSITION was utterly changed. He became an implacable enemy of his Maker. Man is like a snowball rolling down a hillside towards a furnace - a place of destruction of snowballs. In his way the snowball gets bigger, heavier and he is less likely to turn uphill again, unless some with power turns him. But even if a man of giant strength stops the snowball and pushes it up the hill away from the fire, the man is still an offender of God, still an enemy of God, still prone to downward trajectory and still a snowball. So one can be saved from the fire but man needs a fundamental change. So God's work is TWOFOLD; 1. To SAVE a man without breaking His own laws of justice 2. To change a man without the man, still being an enemy, resisting God Suppose God has decided that He will make the snowball a block of ice for building an House for Him (an igloo). He can apply pressure and blows to turn the soft snow into an ice block, but if the snow resists God and every evening undoes the work God has done, what can God do? He made the snowball to have its own will and He honors that. He sets a REWARD for cooperation. God has FOUR options: 1. He can leave the snowball to his own devices. But then His great effort and expense of SAVING the downward vector of the snowball is wasted, and He will have a reputation of a loser. 2. He can frighten the snowball into submission, but this a precarious situation because the snowball has no concept of the temperature of the flames and soon puts these unpleasant thoughts away 3. He can use His massive power to force the snowball into the ROLE but he will soon flag and be a bad ruler 4. He can offer a REWARD for loving Him and serving Him. This way he gets cooperative lovers who WANT to make Him happy. And this is the story of the Bible. God loves His snowballs and does everything to SAVE them. But He SAVES them FOR A PURPOSE. The SAVING is applied if the snowball BELIEVES in God's Work. But the TRAINING for higher office is going to cost time, effort and self-discipline. This principle is the framework of the Law of God (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28). And it remains God's principle for the SANCTIFICATION of a SAVED man. In essence the man suffers LOSS for God's interests, but God, in due time, will RECOMPENSE. The world will plummet downhill and evil will turn into an avalanche. If you are a dead Christian, your account has been closed and you wait to give account. If you are a living Christian you are SAVED, but you still need to be saved from your corruption and uselessness in Gods economy. If you cooperate you will be REWARDED by missing the Great Tribulation. If you resist, God will leave you on earth. You cannot earn your salvation from God's appointed wrath. But you can earn an escape from his wrath on the ungodly. What good sense to read and apply God's way - even if it costs a temporary loss. What stupidity to NOT BELIEVE GOD. In Matthew 7:21-23 some very enthusiastic servants laid claim to the kingdom. They were utterly refused - not for their works, but because they did them without ORDERS. And how come they did not know their orders. They were great workers but had no INTIMACY with the General. Sounds like this happened in Ephesus in Revelation 2. Will you recognize your Genera when He passes through your barracks in the night with His ORDERS!

You've got a point but for many who are new, a fresh look at the matter, without wading through a thousand or two thousand postings, is easier. By the way, have you realized that this theme of partial rapture answers all the others. The firstfruits and Overcomers partake of a pre-tribulation rapture. Those left are matured by the heat and dryness of the Great Tribulation and could be harvested during the Tribulation. And the gleanings, like the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 fulfill a post Tribulation rapture. I think it's WORTHY of its own thread. Go well.

Thanks for your reply. I agree. We debate. We argue too. It's healthy and there is no greater test for one's understanding than to have to formulate it. The language surrounding the various Kingdoms is simple. The Kingdom of God is that area or sphere where God is King and His direct commands are met with obedience. God is sovereign, but for His Name's sake and for His glory, He attached Himself to mankind. If this man is delayed or stopped, God is happy to wait. By using the weakest link He heaps glory upon Himself. So, having placed the earth in man's hands He prepares to take His rest while man rules. That man fell and nw the wrong men rule is no problem to Him. He simply starts a work using man to recover His plan. It just takes some time but all the greater is His glory. Heaven is God's Throne and so all authority starts there. If God engineers circumstances so that the same rules that apply in heaven are made to apply on earth, then the Kingdom (OUT OF) Heaven is on earth. There is no great hidden meaning to the verse you quoted. The Gentiles rule the earth. Jesus prayed for HIS (God's) Kingdom to COME (to earth) and in the same breath He prayed that the rules of heaven would be applied on earth. "Thy Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy WILL be dome on EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN". Simple. The Kingdom of God has to do with the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven has to do with the standard and type of rule. Man lost much on that fateful day when he ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He sinned and could expect God to demand RESTITUTION and RETRIBUTION. He was barred from the Tree of Life. His body was poisoned and headed towards physical death. He was barred from fellowship directly with God. He was humiliated and robbed of his position. He was in no position to rule seeing as he was the source of bad management. But God is sovereign. He was not taken by surprise and immediately put into motion a way of recovering man to his position and inheritance. The grand process of man's salvation does NOT END IN HEAVEN. Man's recovery is so that he can fulfill what God originally planned. Rule of the earth! Because of man's construction this recovery is partly IMPOSSIBLE. Man has no power or means to meet God's requirements for RESTITUTION. Likewise, the RETRIBUTION would destroy him. He could not overcome DEATH. He could not overcome the obstacles to the Tree of Life. He could not have a royal birth to be legal for a throne. So God had to do these things via a Substitute and APPLY them to man. The CONDITION for partaking of the RECOVERY is FAITH in God and His Son and His WORK. But because of his construction, the thinking, feeling and deciding organs of man - his SOUL, could be infused with God's Nature and TRAINED. If God infused the life of His Son into man and then applied circumstances and discipline to a WILLING man and TRANSFORM his SOUL. God would supply the means and man would cooperate in APPLYING them. Now God is not naive. The damage to man is great. Man always tends toward evil. So God made an INCENTIVE to get man to cooperate. Under Law the incentives were temporal. Health, wealth and long life, safety from enemies and bumper harvests were some of them. But for being restored to the high calling of being a ruling son of God, a superhuman standard was to be achieved. So God took the SAVED aside and promised him REWARDS if he cooperated. Conversely, if man did not cooperate, RETRIBUTION would be heaped on him. The WAY was: - To consume God's Word as a living bread - To deny the legal and illegal demands of the SOUL in favor of God's demands - To crucify the FLESH when it made legal and illegal demands - To learn to OBEY the indwelling Spirit of God in all matters and commands - To develop an intimate and virile RELATIONSHIP with Jesus The REWARD is to: - Be in the favor and presence of God (Ps.16:11) - Have past wrongs done to you, met with revenge (Matt.25:31-46) - Have past enemies come cowering at your feet (Rev.3:9) - Watch God's enemies suffer day and night (Isa.66:24) - Have great wealth, fame and power (Matt.19:29) - Be a guest at a Wedding feast (Rev.19:7-8) - Rule a city, or cities with heavenly glory, pomp and authority (Lk.19:17-19) God's RETRIBUTION for non-cooperation is: - Cast from the presence of God and Christ for 1,000 years - Commensurate physical punishment (Matt.24:50-51, Lk.12:48) - Disgrace before God and men - a laughing stock - To be "hurt" of the Second Death - To be refused connection with Jesus - To suffer intensely from deep regret and sense of loss - To complete the required training in the age of the rod of iron You will note that each section does not infringe on the others. Your past sins forgiven, rebirth and eternal life remain. They are had by FAITH and cannot be refuted or withdrawn. You are still a son of God. But you suffer tremendously if you resist and disobey Gods commands in your spirit. You can be a son of God and suffer. You can have eternal life and suffer. You can be resurrected and still suffer physically. I'll deal with the Covenants another day.

Let's look at it this way. Would you say that Moses, Aaron and 600,000 fighting men of the 12 Tribes of Israel were APPOINTED to enter and occupy the Good Land. The training of Moses, which took 80 years, the burning bush, the plagues, the slaughter of Egypt's Firstborn and the opening of the Red Sea all point to God having a plan to get this generation of fighting men into the Land He had PROMISED. But how many achieved what was appointed? The answer is 2! In Revelation 18:4 what do you think? If a Christian is playing in the devil's back yard, and God warned him of plagues to come on the back yard, will he miraculously escape if he does not head the warning? I propose that parables of the Kingdom, and the direct statements (e.g. Gal.5:21), show that ENTERING the coming Kingdom (out) OF Heaven show that only those worthy, only those that attained, only those who behaved, only those qualified, only Overcomers and only those with an intimacy with Christ, will enter it. At GREAT COST did Jehovah take out of the Nations a People for Himself. He has outlined His plan in a GREAT BOOK. He will not allow His GREAT NAME to be defiled with the behavior we see in Christian circles today. To understand it all, all we must do is apply English grammar rules to a God Who gave us language. We do for the computer companies when we set up a new telephone. Every point and dot is carefully put in the right place. If God says "appointed" then he is appointed SO LONG AS NOTHING CHANGES. If he dies, get gravely ill, goes to jail or plays in the Devil's back yard, his "appointment" is annulled. See my posting in the middle of page 2 of this Thread. Go well soldier

Okay, you probably missed it, and it has quite some detail, but I built a case for considering a partial rapture in the middle of page 2 of the thread. To date, no one has offered a counter. I'd say it stands. Of course I cannot expect anybody to answer, but to say the theory lacks biblical foundation is not true. If you decide to answer it, I'll appreciate it. In the mean time, I'll answer yours. 1. 1st Corinthians 15 never mentions the rapture. Verses 50-57 explain a change of body for the living - as opposed to the resurrection body that the dead receive. So much for AI. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 could apply to all believers 1st Thessalonians 5:9 is no guarantee. The operative word is "APPOINTED". "Appointed" means a beforehand agreed time, place or rank or person. It can be overturned if the appointed person dies, absconds and/or goes to jail. In Revelation 18:4 God's people, though not appointed, will partake of Mystery Babylon's plagues if thy are found in her. The statement that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians may be true, but Ananias and Saphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, those who got sick and died for taking the Lord's table unworthily and Alexander the coppersmith almost, or did, lose their lives under God's discipline. If a flood in the streets is predicted because of heavy rains, and a Christian, in full knowledge, plays in the gutter, will God miraculously allow him to breath under water when it goes over his head? 2. The rapture in the parable of the 10 Virgins is found in verses 6 and 11. The cry in verse 6 is "go out and meet Him". Verse 11 shows the foolish Virgins came "AFTERWARDS". But the argument your AI posed fails in another point. It is claimed that they were unbelievers. 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 gives the order of resurrection. Christ first THEN "those who are His when He COMES". Revelation 20:1-6 tells us that the REST of the dead lived NOT until another 1,000 years have passed. As the 5 wise and the 5 foolish were raised together for the Kingdom's sake, they must all be His (Christ's). There are at least five more proofs, but time and space don't allow. 3. The reason for the parable is "watch". But how can the dead watch? The watching must then apply to their lifetimes. The five foolish Virgins are, in six ways, identical to the wise. What made them foolish was two things. (i) They had oil in their lamps but not in their VESSELS. (ii) They did not know that oil in the VESSELS MUST BE BOUGHT. Thus, if the argument is brought that they were unbelievers, and oil is salvation, the the parable teaches salvation by WORKS. If the argument is brought that "now is the time for salvation" they refute themselves because the foolish Virgins got the required oil and came to their Lord. What AI did not tell you concerning the word "knew" is that is "oida" in the Greek. It means "I do not recognize you by sight". That is, the Virgin had spent NO TIME with her Groom. In certain cultures marriages are organized by the parents. The Groom sees his bride the very first time at the wedding feast. But Jesus sought a RELATIONSHIP. In Matthew 7:21-23 the word for "knew" is "ginosko", which means "intimate knowledge" like "knowing a woman" (Lk.1:35). In both cases Christians are addressed. In both cases WORKS were judged. In both cases lack of INTIMACY was the cause. In both cases entering the Kingdom of Heaven was the issue - not salvation

Hey Sister ..... NICE!

I think your argument fails with the word "WHOLE" or "ALL" (the earth). There is no place to sit it out. The rest of the verse agrees. "Those ON EARTH" will be tried. Added to this the wording is not "KEPT IN THE HOUR", but "KEPT FROM THE HOUR". Added to this the word "HOUR" cannot mean a PLACE. It means that some are ABSENT DURING THE TIME of trial. The verse seems far from vague. It seems emphatic to me. They had already been awarded "crowns" but are warned that they could be lost.

Thank you for the invitation. Here, very briefly, is my understanding. In Matthew 13 the Lord Jesus gave seven parables on the Kingdom. By Kingdom I mean that area or sphere where Jesus is King and His instructions are followed. While He was on earth the demons were subject to Him and angels ministered to Him, making Him King of the principalities of heaven. But our Lord never interfered with the kings of men. So, during the gospel age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" pertains to the Church only. The seven parables of Matthew 13 show the development of this Kingdom of Heaven (NOT Kingdom IN Heaven). In these parables certain opposition was to be expected. Unfruitful Christians, Counterfeit Christians, a mustard seed that brings forth Nebuchadnezzar's Tree and Leaven are put there by the enemy. Three of four Parables told from the boat have a harvest and one alludes to a harvest, being bread. And the Lord was clear that the end of the age for the Church was a HARVEST (v.39). Moving to prophecy on the end of the age, we see four harvests (Rev.14). 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of prophecy. That leaves only the Bible and Nature to interpret prophecy. And if we study the harvest in nature and the harvest in the Bible (Leviticus 23) it is clear that any harvest is divided into three sub-harvests. It is ONE HARVEST, but no farmer will reap unripe fruit. That which is first ripe is NOT left on a Tree or bush. It is taken into the farmers HOUSE because he has waited long for the sweet fruit. Some time later the rest of the crop ripens and a general harvest takes place. The crop goes into the farmers BARN. The law of the harvest says that gleanings must be left for the weak, sickly, disadvantaged like widows and fatherless children. That gives THREE GATHERINGS in ONE HARVEST. And so is the rapture - by the mouth of Jesus Himself (Matthew 13:39). But this is not all. If there are "partial raptures" and the rapture is split into gatherings for a harvest, we can expect to see SOME Christians in the clouds with the Son of Man while SOME are left to face the Great Tribulation. And this is the case! In at least THREE scriptures we see Christians saved from the Great Tribulation. The most notable is Revelation 3:10. There, AS A REWARD, Overcomers will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL" that encompasses the WHOLE earth. Note the grammar. It is NOT "Kept IN the hour". It is "kept FROM the hour" And the usage of the "HOUR" means that some are ABSENT for the TIME of the Great Tribulation. Next, Luke 21 is different to Matthew 24 and 25. It deals mainly with 70 AD. But this prophecy ends in verse 24 with the times of the Gentiles FULL. The Lord Jesus abruptly changes to the signs of His coming. Like many prophecies, He jumps over time that is not relevant - like Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted in Acts 2. 2,000 years are skipped over. In Luke 21 the Lord has not yet come because in verse 26 his COMING is mentioned but verse 27 refers the reader BACK TO WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN. According to Matthew 24 the coming of Jesus in great glory is "AFTER the Tribulation of those days". So in Luke 21:35-36 the diligent and watchful Christian who gets to stand before the Son of Man does so WHILE HE IS STILL IN THE CLOUDS. Notice too, like Revelation 3:10, it is CONDITIONAL. It is a REWARD for watching. Next, in Philippians 3:9:14 Paul is opening his heart abut his state of Christian maturity. Paul was not sure that he was mature enough. This had serious consequences. Paul says that he would need maturity to "ATTAIN to the resurrection" and to get the PRIZE of the "Upward call". he is addressing the SAME SUBJECT as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 - a special resurrection (like Revelation 20:1-6) and a PRIZE of a call to go upwards! The KJV is not wrong in its translation, but it is misleading. The New King James corrects it. It is a "calling on high", not a "High calling". So Paul says that there is a "out-resurrection", or "exceptional-resurrection" to be ATTAINED and a PRIZE rapture to be gained ONLY IF YOU ARE MATURE. Conversely, there are at least FOUR scriptures that show saints going through the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 7:9-16 we find a huge crowd from every nation who went through the Great Tribulation. The reason given is that their "garments" needed washing. "A Garment in parable is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). In Revelation 12:17 those who "had the testimony of Jesus Christ" must flee to a wilderness and be helped by the earth from the persecution of the Dragon. No escape for them! In Revelation 13:7 the Beast makes war with the saints during his rule AND OVERCOMES THEM! In Revelation 18:4 we find God's people in Mystery Babylon. With these, and more proofs, a split rapture, or multiple partial rapture is fact. The only objection left is; "why did the Holy Spirit not mention that a pre-tribulation rapture was a PRIZE in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17"? But if you read the whole letter the answer is given. The Thessalonians are the best Church in the New Testament. No moral problems are attributed to them.

Yeah. I just wanted to be clear because the KJV, for all its excellence, didn't quite transmit the meaning. The subject of tis passgae in Philippians 3 is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 - resurrection and rapture. Only, in Philippians the "OUT-resurrection" ("ex-anastasis") and the PRIZE of the firstfruit rapture must be ATTAINED TO. Paul, as he wrote that, had less than four years left to his martyrdom - and he wasn't convinced that he'd attained to it. Now that is a wake-up call!

Yes, but then its too late. But I know what you're getting at: