AdHoc

Okay. I probably missed something. Please scratch anything that seems accusatory. But I'd like to let my comments stand because there are some who just change God's Word into their own words because they don't like, or don't understand, what God is revealing. There are no mistakes in the original word of God. "ALL" means "all" and Israel's UN-belief remains till Jesus bursts out of the clouds above Mt. Olives. Because God's PROMISES are made to Abraham and his SEED (via Isaac and Jacob) "ALL", that is, EVERY Israelite has them applied to him/her. That is why Ezekiel 37 FIRST has Resurrection then the GATHERING. This habit is very obvious on this Forum. It's better to say "I don't understand" than fiddle with God's Word

I appreciate your non-combative answers. You're polite but to the point. May answer thus; A Covenant is a Contract between two parties. It is promissory agreement with both parties vowing to keep certain points in return for the other party keeping theirs. Usually there are penalties for non-compliance because the other party suffers a disadvantage when the first party defaults. Because man is fallen, Hebrews 9 tells us that anything between God and man must be ratified in blood - that is, the death of an innocent party is required. With Abraham the Covenant was 15 or so unconditional promises from God's side and ONE from Abraham and his seed - circumcision. But the circumcision is not the ratification. It is man's side of the agreement. The sacrifice of Genesis 15 was the ratification - and it too was one-sided. Only God passed through the halves. To Abraham were promised THREE Seeds. (i) Christ - the Seed (singular), (ii) seed as the sand of the sea-shore - Israel, and (iii) seed as the stars of heaven - the Church. The steer answers for Jesus, the goat and ram speak for the two houses of Israel and the turtles doves for the Church. This is because the Covenant encompasses all three (Gal.3). Three is the number of resurrection so the age was three for both Christ and Israel. Two is the number of witness. Both Israel and the heavenly Church are two. And the opponents were principalities of the air. The very verses you brought sustain this scheme. Romans 4:11 says circumcision is a "sign". It is a sign that you are prepared to set aside the pleasures of life to fulfill God's plan with the Land. But when it comes to the whole earth (Rom.4:13) the whole flesh must be counted as dead and full immersion in death waters is the sign (Rom.6:1-8, Col.2:10-12, Jn.3:5). The next Covenant was 430 years later at Horeb. Moses sprinkles the books (tablets) of Law and he sprinkles the people. That was the ratification. But this was not an "everlasting covenant" and so a New Covenant is predicted. Both have, as man's part, LAW. The New Covenant, made with Israel ALONE, contains the same conditions as that of Moses - LAW. This covenant, predicted in many places, is made with Israel. Thus, we (Gentiles) have nothing to do with Law - ever, and for the Jewish convert to Christ, it is nailed to the cross (Eph.2:15).

I have always been impressed with your simple honesty. I agree. No one gets the FULL truth. Paul maybe, but a thorn is added. Man is, and stays stunted in His understanding. A energetic debate on the Triune God is not wrong, but at some stage the parties debating will have to admit that the Triune God is beyond human intellect. The rest is pride. It's like asking a man to explain the diameter of the universe. Besides not being able to cope with 93 billion light years, he cannot for sure say that it actually is this number. Nobody has been there to measure it. There is only one Witness to its construction and he measured it with the palm of His Hand (Isa.40:12, 48:13). Concerning men in heaven, I have not found a verse that shows heaven as man's destiny. Made in heaven, reward in heaven and taken on a short journey to heaven - yes. But heaven as man's destination - no. On the other hand the scriptures are full of man's connection with earth (Psalm 8, Hebrews 2, Daniel 2, Genesis 1:26-28 etc. etc.)

There is no "all" that is not "all". Verse 29 does not stop after "all". It reads "all that HEARD him". The word "heard" can been the exercise of the ear as in sound, OR it can mean they were in agreement. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (Matt.18:15). Verse 30 tell which one. SOME were not in agreement.

I'm sorry to say that I don't understand. What has the malefactor on the cross got to do with Israel? But concerning that, now that you have brought it up, the malefactor asked our Lord Jesus concerning His KINGDOM. The context was the superscription that Pilate ordered on Jesus' cross. In that He (Jesus) is "King of the JEWS". Therefore the discourse was about when Jesus would be crowned King of Israel. What has Baptism got to do with the Kingdom of Israel? You're right. Context is everything. But the matter is not finished. Jesus answered not a word about the Kingdom. He spoke of Paradise in Hades where they would be together after death - not the kingdom they would be after resurrection (Dan.12:1-2, Ezek.37). I understand you being short of time. Next time, just quote the verses where Israel turn to the Lord. My Bible says they remain hard and blind until the fullness of the gentiles.

A tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan.4, Ezek.31 etc). Israel is a Vine (Ps.80:8, Isa 5:2) and after the Assyrian deportation the remaining Tribes were called a Fig Tree. It was subsequently CURSED. Jeremiah 2:21 speaks of Israel in crisis, not Jesus. 21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me? (Jer.2:21). Perish the thought that our Lord Jesus be "degenerate" and "strange"! In John 15 our Lord Jesus is not a Vine. He is a TRUE Vine. According to to John 20:30-31 these "signs" were to provoke you to faith and faith would lead to LIFE. Jesus, the True Vine, depicts a King and a Kingdom of LIFE - eternal life. The branches that are barren are not Christians who are lost after conversion. They are removed from the KINGDOM. The fruitful branches are also cut, but remain in the LIFE-FLOW of the stem and are not hindered from bearing the fruit of eternal LIFE (see 7:39). If you are not sure of the relationship between our Lord Jesus and Israel, read the closing verses of Matthew 12. Jesus DISOWNS Israel. Chapter 13 show him leaving the "house of His brethren", leaving the sand of the sea-shore and taking up position in a boat. The sea in Type is the Nations and the boat, in the sea - but not OF it, depicts the Church. After four parables to the crowd, He enters another House. In this House is Jesus and DISCIPLES - not countrymen. In this house is understanding of the mysteries of the Kingdom. Only in the Church ("the pillar and ground of the TRUTH" - 1st Tim.3:15) is understanding given.

I appreciate your view. But every scripture you ave concerning a Covenant with Abraham mentioned one Covenant. So it is throughout the Bible. The second Covenant you allude to, and which is typified in Galatians by Hagar, is the Covenant of LAW given at Horeb ad ratified by Moses with the blood in Exodus 24:7-9. The second Covenant was not made with Abraham. It is made with ISRAEL (Ex.34:27). Abraham is a gentile - a Syrian. Circumcision is not a Covenant. It is Abraham and his seed's PART in the Covenant of Promise. It is a "sign" (Rom.4:11) from which we draw the word "signature". It is the condition required to be a legal party to this Covenant of Promise. Galatians 3:29 says that we are heirs as well, but circumcision is replaced by Baptism (Col.2:10-12). These two Covenants were given 430 years apart. The reason why a difference is made between these Covenants is that they BOTH address "THE land". The Covenant with Abraham Promises the Land UNCONDITIONALLY. It's only quirk was that the main character, Abraham, would receive it only after he was resurrected. The second Covenant had, as its conditions, the Law. And because all men except Jesus could not keep the Law, this Covenant threatened EJECTION from the Land (Lev.26, Deut.28). And so, when Israel had been ejected from Canaan, it suddenly became a matter of God's honor. In one Covenant Jehovah PROMISES the Land and in another Jehovah will kick you out. This seeming conflict is the logical ed of the case that Paul builds in Romans. He concludes ALL men under sin and in need of Christ. The Jew though, rears up and calls upon the Covenant of Law. Paul squashes this argument in Romans 7 and shows that the Law calls for death. The solution for Jew and Gentile is Romans Chapter 8. But everybody knows that the Jew will not go this way. The conflict that God set in motion by one Covenant putting Israel INTO the Land and another Covenant that kicks them out is settled in Romans 9 to 11. It takes Paul three whole Chapters to build the case for mercy with Israel DESPITE their UNBELIEF. Because our Lord Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world (1st Jn.2:2), God can judicially advance mercy to "whom He will" (9:15, 18). For eternal life God sets a condition; Believe in Jesus and confess Him. But for restoration to the Land God sets forth forgiveness BY COVENANT. This does not get Israel eternal life, but it removes the obstacle of trespasses so that they can be restored to their LAND.

A wise choice. Take your time. May God give light.

Only one was ratified by blood. Every mention of THE Covenant is singular in the entire Bible. Maybe you are counting the promises. I count 15.

The question is difficult. Those CHRISTIANS who are alive when Christ comes will never die. Bu they are "changed" (1st Cor.15:50-54). If you mean "natural life" to be that from the mothers womb then Romans 5:12-17 answers that. All men die. If your question was within the context of man's destiny being on earth, then I will state the following; Man is headed for death and subsequent judgment. At no time do men leave the earth except Christians who are raptured. But these, after a short sojourn in the air, return with Christ (1st Thess.4:13, Rev.19). At the White Throne the "rest of men" are judged. If we consider the conjunction "and" at the beginning of Revelation 21, then there is, on the New Earth, no death (see also 1st Corinthians 15:26). The details of this are not given, but "mortality is swallowed by immortality" for ALL men (Verse 22). Thus, all men are alive and on earth including Jesus. He being Seed of Abraham (Matt.1:1), must inherit the world (Rom.4:13). The Roman Catholic Church, which ruled Christianity for thousand years, needed a doctrine of heaven and hell because (i) they sold indulgences, and (ii) they are "Kingdom Now" by doctrine. Matthew 13 says that the members of the Kingdom were "leavened". That men go to heaven after death is one of their most destructive doctrines. The trouble with leaven is that you can NOT get it out of the grain. Let's take David -future king of Israel (Jer.30:9, Act.15:14-16). In Acts 2:24-36 David is found still dead and his soul in HADES. This was 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension. But the majority of posters on this Forum will fight to have him in heaven.

First, the promise was that the Land was to be an everlasting possession. Israel barely made 800 years. But the prime recipient - Abraham, died and never owned as much as a footprint of the Land. Either God is not Who He said that He was and cannot do what He promised, or Abraham will still receive the Land at a future date. Our Lord Jesus will disagree that the Law had to be fulfilled in Him. he will "kill and eat" the Passover when He returns (Lk.22:7-16). The Law is not fulfilled by Christ alone but by ISRAEL - which they have failed to do. Under the New Covenant they will (Ezek.32 & 33). I am surprised that you say that the Biblical meaning of "ALL" means "only some". Changing the words of the Bible never ends well. One of the tactics of the world is to grab a box and paint it black. Then they add something to it and call it bad. Then they don't have to discuss with a man who brings a sound argument. They just put him in their self-made black box and declare the man "bad". The truth is that I did not even mention "dispensationalism". I alluded to the promises of prophets. The truth also is that "dispensationaliism" is a fact of the Bible. 1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; The Greek is "oikonomia" and it means "household management".

Is Jesus a Lamb or a Man? Is Jesus a Temple or a Man? Is Jesus a Vine or a Man? These things show an aspect of Jesus' duties. New Jerusalem is at once a "sign", a City, a Tabernacle, a Mother, a Bride or Wife, and has a cube form with the measure of an angel. I think that you will agree that New Jerusalem is a picture of God's complex plan with the earth. Otherwise you create an absurdity.

The Covenant God made with Abraham is with his SEED also. That means that it applies to every Israelite who was ever conceived. It is also an "everlasting Covenant". It does not run out with time. Because the problem that man was constructed for is on the earth. Because the an angels are not given the world to come (Heb.2.5). Because Genesis 1:26-28 sets forth the earth as man's domain. Because, according to Jesus' prayer, the Father's will is done in heaven but not on earth. Because God's House and Kingdom will be established on earth (Dan.2:35, Rev.11:15, 21:1 - 22:5). It is true that our reward and new body are in heaven. But Swiss can have an account and land in Switzerland while guarding the Pope in Rome. Our Lord will bring us bodily with Him when He comes to earth and His reward is with Him when He comes (to earth).

And how I wished for you to give scripture for your last statement. And how I wished you to show how God's promise was transferred to heaven when scripture says; 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith (Rom.4:13). It is no good to quote Hebrews 11 about a "heavenly city" because the word "heavenly" declares the ORIGIN of the city and not the destination. New Jerusalem is meant and it proceeds FROM heaven TO earth (Rev.21). But we do not discuss the New Jerusalem AFTER the Millennium, but the Land that God showed Abraham and promised HIM as "an everlasting possession". All through the wilderness travels Israel was assured that the Land they were to inherit was the Land He Promised Abraham. There is no escape. The Good Land is defined three times, once to Abraham, once in David's reign and once to Ezekiel. It had PHYSICAL Borders - a PHYSICAL LAND.

You have uncovered TWO Grand Truths; 1. Ezekiel 27, THE Chapter on Israel's resurrection and recovery, says that "This is ALL the house of Israel" 2. ALL Israel was scattered to the four winds. In Romans 11 "ALL Israel will be saved" The grand truth of this is that that Promises made to Israel via Abraham are made to his SEED. Some versions have "offspring", but this is not literal. You see, "SEED" covers everyone, even miscarriages - and abortions. Thus, "ALL" is "ALL" - every person conceived from Jacob's line INCLUDING the millions of Jews who died in Egypt, the Wilderness and in the diaspora. If Jesus is both Root of Jesse and SEED of David, PLUS "son of Abraham" (Matt.1:1), then he is 1. The source of the kingly line, 2. the end of the kingly line, 3. He owns Israel, and 4. He must inherit the Good Land. God's promises are without repentance!

Most great doctrines are well documented. The Lord requires two or three scriptures to establish a doctrine. I'll be bold and accept ONE. Can you produce ONE verse that says Israel must believe in a Messiah to be restored? Now, one admonishment. Don't mix eternal life with national recovery. They are two very different things. But here's a hint. In Mathew 13 our Lord spoke four parables from the boat. He said that these were the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven. In one of them He predicted that a woman would leaven the whole lump. So, taking the Lord seriously, would you expect to find the doctrine of the Kingdom of Heaven to be partly true (wheat) and part counterfeit (leaven). If so, is it the Kingdom (out) OF heaven, like in "Thy Kingdom COME ... " (to earth), or is it the "the Kingdom IN heaven". The woman is found in Revelation 17 - Rome. The woman is destroyed, not by God, but by 10 kings of the earth. Why must these kings destroy the woman? Because the Beast must direct all worship to Himself. Thus, the woman is identified - A RELIGION. And so God's RELIGION is "leavened" by a Roman religion, that is later destroyed in favor of the religion of Nimrod (Babel), what can we expect? Be honest. If it is "Thy Kingdom COME" then the King will live on earth. Since he is King of Israel, what are the chances that He will live in Jerusalem? And if Jerusalem is where the Great King will live, then the Old Testament with all its hundreds of prophecies IS LITERAL

Yes! If Abraham never owned so much as a footprint, then God's Promises must yet to be fulfilled.

Not so - on both accounts. 1. As our esteemed sister @Anne2 alluded to, scripture says that that not even the land under his footprint was his. 2. Nor did our Lord Jesus ever rule or own the Good Land. In this you are correct. You did not mention the Lake of Fire. But could you explain what you meant by "being saved not by the works of Law". Seeing as I mentioned Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and Israel's National restoration by adherence to what Moses was teaching "that day", would you care to comment? I'm not trying catch you. Deuteronomy 30:1-5 is a prophecy by Moses. There is ample prophecy of Israel's recovery. But nothing of Israel having faith. How then is Israel deemed worthy of recovery? Ezekiel 37 says "this is ALL the house of Israel" in the resurrection and joining of the two houses. But this chapter has no talk of faith - only of God's interaction. The answer lies in Romans 11; 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins (Rom.11:26–27). The grammar is clear. ALL Israel is forgiven by Covenant. And God is clear too. He MAY have mercy on whom He pleases. Jesus has paid in full. God may set the conditions and He may judicially forgive the guilty since the sins have once landed on His Son. For God to exact retribution on Israel when One has already paid would be unrighteous. This maybe new for you, but Romans 9 to 11 is not about the Church being grafted into Israel. Israel is also branches and were cut out. The Root is Holy. Only One is holy - Christ (Lk.1:35). A tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Dan.4, Ezek.31). In the final analysis - New Jerusalem, we have Christ as the City and Tabernacle. The Church is the Walls. Israel are the Gates, and the Nations are divided into those who access to the LEAVES of the Tree of Life /Rev.21). All this is on a "renewed earth" (lit. Gk.). If you object, take each sentence of mine and see if it is true. If each sentence is true and the sequence is logical, I have a very strong argument - one which you must decide upon. You will find that; 1. Israel are a Nation 2. Israel have been chastised but not forgotten or replaced 3. Israel will be frorgiven 4. Israel will be restored 5. Jesus will live in Jerusalem 6. Israel will serve Christ - Emmanuel - in His needs 7. Israel, sons of Jacob, are of a different SOURCE to the Church - who are sons born of the Spirit And, 8. Christ is never called Israel

I thought I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. God made promises to Abraham and his seed. If He does not keep these promises we can burn our Bibles and meet at the pub. God's honor, and Israel's future are hanging in the balance. I count fifteen promises in Genesis 12 to 22. Zacharias, prophesying 2,000 years later (Lk.1), thought that they were still to be fulfilled. Is 14th May, 1948 even alluded to in scripture? Is not the prophecy directed at the blossoming of the Fig Tree and not the Tree itself? How can the Fig Tree blossom without a Temple? Is not Israel's discipline for 2 days (Hosea 6:2)?

None other than the God of this universe said that the Good Land would be given as an "everlasting possession". Either God made a mistake or it will only happen after Israel's resurrection. How could Abraham call Canaan his when the next prophecy by Jehovah was that he (Abraham) would die? I specifically pointed out that I was not addressing the Lake of Fire. If you want to discuss that I don't mind, but to intimate that I hold this is after what i wrote is strange - to say the least. I think that further debate will not bring anything. Peace to you too.

Hi @Orion, @Luther, @Anne2, and others. The word "Remnant", as used by the Holy Spirit can mean two things. (i) It can mean "those that remain". And it can also (ii) mean "a select group that did not join the majority". When Noah survived the flood he and his family were a remnant of mankind. They did not join the rest of men. In Revelation 7:1-8 a select 144,000 Israelites were sealed so that the mechanism of the Great Tribulation did not kill them (9:4). So what is the REMNANT of Israel? It is a certain percentage of ALL Israelites that do not go the way of Israel. This division is MORAL - NOT ETHNIC. Elijah stands for God and is threatened by Jezebel. He flees. God is gracious to meet him in a desert. Elijah complains that he is the only man let who is "jealous for God's Covenant of Sinai" wherein idol worship is forbidden. God did not order Elijah to run, nor to go to the wilderness. He had just single-handedly killed 400 false prophets. And now he runs from a woman!? Yes. This was none other than a foreign woman who was not only queen of Israel by illegal marriage, but had 450 of her own prophets, all having mastery in the powers of darkness. Elijah had good reason to run. But what does God assure him? God assures Elijah that He has kept 7,000 men like him for Himself. They are a select group of an idolatrous nation. Why did God do this? Because God is a God of SUBSTITUTION. For 50, 40 and 10 righteous men God would spare Sodom. To avoid the death of a billion sinners, God will accept one Man's death - Jesus. A Lamb, a goat or turtle doves can take the place of the firstborn of Israel and Aaron may enter the Holy of Holies once a year, a profane man, and not be killed - because of a substitute for him personally. Now, what is not taught in Churches is that Israel have a way back to NATIONAL RESTORATION. I'm not talking about being saved from the Lake of Fire. I'm talking about a DISPERSED people gathered back to their Promised Land and living in peace and prosperity. The conditions for this are part of the Covenant of LAW. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses assumes that the curses of Chapter 28 will come upon Israel and he tells Israel how to be RECOVERED NATIONALLY. They must, with all their heart and soul, return to the LAW. It is the Law that got them dispersed and the same way is the way back - they must fulfill what Moses was telling THAT DAY. But do you think that ALL Israel will do this??? God is not naive. He knows from the beginning of time that Israel will, exactly at the time of turning back to the Law, worship the Beast and install him, a Roman Caesar, in a newly built Temple in Jerusalem (2nd Thess.2:1-4). Israel as a Nation will reach their darkest pit just when their Messiah, Jesus, is about to appear. What can save Israel THE NATION??? What saves them is a SUBSTITUTIONARY REMNANT. This is what God Promises in Romans 9 and 11. He concludes Israel in unbelief. He has cut them out of the Olive Tree. They have just one hope - that some Israelites will turn back to the Law. But the situation is even more drastic for God. Did He not PROMISE Israel the Land as a "everlasting possession". Never mind Israel's plight. GOD'S HONOR IS AT STAKE! Is He really capable of keeping His promises? Is He the ALL-Mighty??? YES!!! He keeps for Himself a REMNANT of Israelites who turn to the LAW. They are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as promised in Romans 9 and 11. They are sealed so that the y are not killed, and we find them in Revelation 12 and 14. Two peoples will be present during the 1260 days of Great Tribulation; (i) "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" - Christians, and (ii) "those who keep the Commandments of God" - Israelites. The term "Commandments of God", in the Old Testament, exclusively meant the Law of Moses. Christians have Christ as the their Head. They keep Christ's commandments. All authority in the New Testament is given to Christ. Those in Revelation who "keep the Commandments of GOD" are a REMNANT of ETHNIC JEWS. They are NOT believers in Christ. They are God's remnant to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. And now I reach my point. Israel is Israel - a Nation from the loins of Jacob. Whether a good Israelite or a bad one - they are ALL Israelites. Whether idol-worshiper or pious priest - the are BOTH Israelites. Whether sinners or REMNANT - they are ISRAELITES. There are no Israelites who are not Israelites. God only makes this distinction in Romans 2 in a MORAL SENSE. A Jew who is circumcised is a Jew. His claim to righteousness because of his Law is MOOT if he is morally destitute. So he is reckoned as circumcised in the foreskin but not circumcised IN HEART. The argument in Romans 2 does not concern ETHNICITY. It is an argument that God will judge EQUALLY based on a man's MORAL CIRCUMCISION. Let's examine Daniel 12:1-2: Daniel 12:1-2 concerns "Daniel's people". It concerns Michael - an angel for Israel. Daniel's people is fought for by Michael. And then they are returned to their LAND. Now note; ALL Israel is returned to their Land - THE GOOD AND THE BAD. The REMNANT are not believers in Christ. They are God's select to recover NATIONAL ISRAEL.

Nicely written. Circumcision for a seed of Abraham to put him in line for the earthly inheritance - Canaan. For those born to the Spirit, circumcision is replaced by Baptism (Col.2:1o-13, Jn.3:5) and puts one in line for the Kingdom of God (the whole earth (Rom.4:13).

Not so. The "and" between "peace and mercy" is the same word ("kai") as the word your translation renders "even so". It is a conjunction, joining two different things like it joins "peace" and "mercy". "And" is cumulative, copulative and sequential. The context also forbids "even so" as Israel is CONTRASTED wit the New Man. The whole book forbids this as it CONTRASTS the Galatian saints with Israel. The New Man is taken OUT OF the Nations and the NATION of Israel (Ephesians 2:15) and has NO ethnicity (3:28). It is a fully New Creature with no past (2nd Cor.5:17).

What profit does the student of scripture have to call Christ "Israel". Here is a short history of Israel: 1. While Jacob walked with the Lord, his 12 sons, except for Joseph, were criminals 2. Israel worshiped idols in Egypt 3. Israel carried idols 40 years in the wilderness 4. All except for 2 Israelite men fell in the wilderness because of unbelief 5. Israel crossed the Jordan uncircumcised 6. Israel served God very sporadically in the 800 or so years they occupied the Land 7. Israel went a whoring spiritually 8. Israel walked not in all the law and thus are cursed 9 Israel broke Covenant with God 10. Israel were ejected from the promised Land for their evil 11. Israel called for Caesar as their king when offered Jesus 12. Israel took responsibility for Christ's blood 13. Israel forfeit the kingdom 14. Israel were dispersed among all nations for their evil 15. Israel are concluded in unbelief till the fullness of the Gentiles Israel have very little to do with God's declared purpose in Genesis 1:26-28. They neither carry His image nor have dominion on the earth. Jesus Himself declared His disconnection with Israel at the end of Mathew Chapter 12. It is by pure mercy that they are forgiven (Rom.11) and not annihilated. We Christians are admonished in 1st Corinthians 10:1-11 NOT to copy them. It is for God's name's sake that they are restored as a Nation - not because they are Christ-like.

Aaahhh! All is clear. We appreciate the word "perdition" differently. "Lack of well-being" for me is a state. For you it is physical fire - or at least physical fire gives you cause to disagree. May I put this forward for consideration. Genesis 1:1 has the earth in perfect order. Genesis 1:2 has it dark and covered with water - sure signs of God's judgment. Noah outlives a flood which covers the whole earth with water ... again. Water immersion turns out to be a judgment on sin (Romans 6). Joshua 24 shows both parties who enter Covenant with God passing through a flood (Josh.24:2, 14). Jesus calls His death a Baptism. So well established is this sign of immersion to be judgment on evil that the metaphor for "perdition" is the LAKE of fire. The idea of immersion is there, but because of Noah's Covenant, Fire replaces water. The idea is of a living man immersed in fire but never being consumed. Many scholars maintain that everlasting agony is not in keeping with God's nature. I say that it fits perfectly. The Law of Moses tells all. I steal your sheep. I'm caught. I must return your sheep (restitution) AND I must give you four more sheep (retribution). Men are free to go against God but how will the creature repair the slight on the eternal Creator and then five times over. A mere man showed a finger at the Eternal One. How will he escape eternity. The Polish parent who watched her seven-year-old daughter raped and then disemboweled by the advancing Russian soldiers in 1945 - in which Millennia will her horror abate? Noah's covenant was specific. Strike a man and you struck a blow at God! Strike a Jew and you force Abraham to call to memory his Covenant that his enemies will be God's enemies. Did not God declare a "perpetual war" with Amalek for their attack from behind on the weak of Israel. Mordecai never forgot this and though he gives all honor to the Persian king he dishonors the seed of Agag though God has decreed that we subject ourselves to the governing ones. And who will bear their fire when they have thumbed their nose at the living God? Shall the culprit cease to exist and thus the retribution cease? I think not!