Lanakila

The sanitation procedures instituted under the Jewish law we know now to be wisdom beyond the times. The Israelites practiced according to the law proper sanitation for a camp of wandering people, when the rest of the peoples of the times had not a clue. It wasn't found out for hundreds of years why the Israelites did these things. They likely didn't die of as many diseases and pestilences as the other peoples that lived during the same period of time.

The term fundamentalist has definetly fallen into ill repute these days. It actually does not mean terrorist, LOL. The Baptist group we came from used to call themselves fighting fundamentalists which did not mean what you may think it means. It means that they stuck to the fundamentals of the faith and shot their own wounded, or those who don't agree with them (not literally though). They also tended to be legalistic on appearance issues. Does this sound anything like an Islamic fundamentalist? I don't think so, so be careful when you attack those fundamentalist Christians. You may not agree with them (I don't on everything) but most are still brothers and sisters in Christ whom we will have to share heaven with.

2 Peter 3:10 describes a future disaster (day of the Lord) that sounds very much like an atomic catastrophe. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. There are many scientific facts in the Bible that were written hundreds of years before it was "discovered" by scientists. This verse in 2 Peter was used to discredit the Bible before scientists split the atom, but no longer.

Some more apologetics sites from the philosophical angle: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/ http://www.leaderu.com/index.html http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp http://www.str.org/index.htm http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/index.html http://hisdefense.org/home2.html http://www.ses.edu/journal/index.html Most of these I got from the first link: The Ultimate Apologetics Website, and if we hit the unbeliever at the philosophy level its easier than tackling it from the scientific level (less moving parts).

That is only your opinion. I have said before that I believe in pre-trib because of my study of the Bible. Not out of fear of the "Great Tribulation". This opinion of yours is offensive to those of us who believe the Bible teaches Pre-trib. If I am wrong I will take my lumps with the rest of you guys. I am not saying I know everything. Eschatology by mere implication of the word is debatable. But you post or mid tribers or even preterists could be wrong too. Its possible all of us have a different understanding of prophetic passages and yet be still saved. I had a thought yesterday that this differing understanding of eschatology or whatever doctrine just reinforces the doctrine of the freewill of man, even after we are saved. We obviously aren't robots that believe exactly alike on everything, even after becoming believers. This explains the many denominations better than anything else that I can imagine.

We are created in the image of God. That is a pretty big esteem builder. But, we sin, which hits that esteem down a notch. But, Christ died for us, (while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us) this puts that esteem back into focus. We are so very important to God that Jesus died for us. Matthew 6:25,26 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26. Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? We are much more valuable, do you see that? If you read Chapter 6 of Matthew it explains the value God puts on us, and puts us in the right light. By this I mean, we aren't to think more highly of ourselves then we ought, but that we are more valuable to God than other creatures. :lightbulb:

Thats my beef too Astralis. They claim to know something that I don't believe we can know. The Bible doesn't teach anywhere that there is one translation that we should read. Those who say the modern versions are perversions, really don't understand the preservation of scripture and are just making statements without a basis in reality.

2 Thessalonians 2 1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6. And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10. and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie Verse 7 the Holy Spirit is the one holding back everything that is going to happen. This passage of scripture is describing the Antichrist and what is going to happen during the tribulation. Has any of these things already happened? No and when you combine it with 1 Thes description of the rapture, its clear these things are future. 1 Thes 4: 13. Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18. Therefore encourage each other with these words. The amil position (that these things have already happened) is mistaken, unless you spiritualize many scriptures.

Yes, I have met people that have dabbled in the occult. My own mother does this (automatic writing). I knew she was into the new age and had dabbled in automatic writing and astral projection in the past, but found out recently she is still into this stuff. She isn't the only one I have met like this, though. My hubby had a roomate in the Army when he was a new believer that had been a dungeon master (dungeon's and dragons) and was into a satanic religion (don't remember its name). This guy was possessed, not just oppressed. He came to church with my hubby a few times. One time he sat near me and I tried to share my Bible with him, this fellow acted as if looking at the scripture would kill him. One other time before church he was being introduced to people in the church, this one fellow (the guy who took me to church when I got saved) tried to shake his hand, and Joe (the roomate) almost punched Mark and ran out of the church. I know this doesn't make sense, as it doesn't to me and I was there, LOL. My hubby had other experiences with Joe that proved to us that he was truly possessed of a demon or many. My hubby had no idea about demon possession at this time, and therefore didn't confront the demon and cast it out. He gave the gospel to Joe repeatedly and Joe said: I want to receive Christ, I just can't. He couldn't until the demon or demons were cast out, and my hubby didn't know what to do. Now, since hubby has been in the ministry he has ran across a few demon possessed people, and cast a few out, but its rare.

Upon reading the passage in Isaiah it appears to be describing the Messiah to come, not Apostolic succession. (remember context is everything) Every passage talking about keys or a key taken and applied to Peter or a line of supposed Popes, should necessarily take into account the context of who the passage is talking about, correct?

Astralis this is not based on feelings. I don't want people who have never heard to go to hell either, but Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Him. Narrow is the path that leads to eternal life, and wide is the path that leads to destruction. I am posting scriptures not feelings. Romans 10:9-15 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12. For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13. for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15. And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" This passage among others teach that the heathen (unbelievers are lost) and we are commanded to tell them the truth. If the heathen are going to heaven before we tell them, the truth will just condemn those who reject it, right? They would be better off not knowing. The Great Commission is good news, not bad, so your reasoning is off.

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That makes sense Eph. But, how did you figure that out? If you don't mind my asking.

Munari, I am sorry but I have never heard those scriptures interpreted in that way (applied to purgatory). 1 Cor 3:15, my commentary says this is talking about loss of rewards, with our works (wood, hay, stubble) are burned up because of impure motives and attitudes. Luke 12:59 (is a parable talking about the signs the Pharisees did not recognise that Christ was performing then, and is nothing to do with purgatory of any type) Rev 21:27 (wow, thinking we need to get cleaned up after being washed in the blood of the lamb) and Maccabees is Apocraphal literature, so I won't comment on it.

Munari, I noticed an absence of scriptural support for what you just explained about purgatory. Can you please give that?

Absent from the body, present with the Lord teaches against purgatory. Without shedding of blood there is no remission is another (Heb). In other words, Christ blood paid for sins, not us burning (purging) in purgatory. There are more and I may post them later.

Chazn the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory has some support in the Apocrapha. Not sure of any other extras, but I am sure Munari and Astralis can come up with some.

Amen Gatorgirl. Professors, are not always possessors. My brother is an example of this. The parable of the seeds talks about those who don't persevere and they aren't saved.

This thread has totally gone balitstic.

What are you saved from in the first place munari? If not hell, then what? If I am saved from hell and given eternal life, its eternal and I was given it. Eternal does mean forever, not just until I commit "mortal" sin.

Eternal Security Charles F.Stanley Our Price: $9.97 Format: Hardcover Publisher: Thomas Nelson Publishers Publication Date: 1997 ISBN: 078526163X Weight: 1.00 lbs. Its not very long, 150 pages at most. This is from George's worthybooks link. I posted this on here because your email box is full. Your explanation of salvation does not make sense to me.

Munari, I promise I will read that book if you will read: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley. Charles used to be an Arminian (believe you can lose your salvation), but changed after further study of the Bible.

What Munari? You have totally lost me here. Adam and even are not good example of losing salvation, and if you are trying to prove this you can find someone else I am sure, LOL. Actually I don't think you can find anyone, but they were like innocent children before they fell, so they didn't lose salvation but actually their eyes were opened and they were no longer innocent. God provided a way, (sacrifice of animals) for them to be in right relationship again, although they were still punished (reaped what they sowed). I am thinking we will see Adam and Eve in heaven, myself. If anyone lost salvation (OT was a little different than NT) it was King Saul. But, I don't think he did either, he may have not been saved to start with, or he may have repented of the wickedness of consulting a medium and disobedience to God. Christians can sin too, so his sin doesn't prove loss of salvation only reaping what was sown (lost his Kingdom) by his kingdom being given to David. OT examples are going to be hard to use Munari, because Christ hadn't come yet, so the Jews/proselytes were looking forward to the salvation to come. Remember the story Jesus told of Lazarus in Abrahams Bosom? This story explains how Jesus went to hell to preach to the Saints in Abrahams bosom so that they could go to heaven. So OT saints salvation wasn't complete until Jesus resurrection.

Are you so sure of that Munari? I don't think so, God provided a covering for Adam and Eve from animal skins. Animals were sacrificed. I would agree that Cain was lost (never saved) but I don't think from my reading of Genesis that Adam and Eve lost their salvation. They were the first sinners, but God was already looking toward the providing of a sacrifice (His own Son) right away. You cannot dogmatically say Adam and Eve lost their salvation. They didn't need salvation until the fall that they committed. This is a faulty argument. Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." This is God saying that the sacrifice of Jesus would crush satan's head.

Deuteronomy is my favorite book in the OT, LOL, not. Actually I have been thinking about this for a few days. I would have to say I like the books about David: 1, 2nd Samuel, 1 Kings has David for a little bit, and many of the Psalms are written by David. I cannot wait to meet David when we get to heaven. It's easy to judge the OT saints or even Peter and not look at our fallible selves.