sagz4Christ

I knew you would say something about that. It was just at the time, I could not think of a way to state what I was thinking. I suppose I could have called it a theory, but you told SBG that there was a difference between a scientific theory and a regular theory. My question: What is the difference? A theory is a theory right? ::EDIT TO CORRECT STATEMENT:: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sorry, HIS SON said that there is a difference between a theory and a scientific theory, He also said that scientific theory is as close to fact as we can get. I disagree (reference LAWS of Thermodynamics). Anyway, the question still stands as good to know in case it comes up again. end of correction ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What I am trying to get at here, is that when I say "theory of evolution" I am talking about the scientific theory that simple life evolved into different spiecies (sp) and more complex life forms. This is the theory that I hope to show evidence against. Now, to be sure, I understand you will see things differently than myself or SBG, (hereafter, Wayne). I know where you stand with evolution. And as you will try to present evidence against Creation, I would ask that you understand that we feel the same way about that as you do about evolution (as defined above). If that definition is not as accurate as it could or should be, please correct as needed. Basically, when I say evolution, I am not talking about a species ability to adapt to it's surrounding conditions. The birds (I think finches) in the Galapagos Islands do not change into a different species with the change in beak size just like a long-haired dog doesn't change it's genetic make-up in the summer when it sheds hair. Just like humans that live in colder climates have longer and thicker hair are no less human that those that live in temerate zones with shorter and less hair. WE must start by defining the terms we are discussing before we begin an in depth analysis of the evidence. Is this satisfactory to all involved? We may well be looking at the same coin from a different angle. We are definately interpreting the evidence presented in a different light. This is what we must work past in order to arrive at the truth. Something we all have said we are after. But if you do not think you can come to the conclusion based upon the evidence given, then we need to seriously concider the reasons we are getting invloved in this discussion to begin with. If I am unwilling to be open to see things from your perspective, and you are unwilling to see things from my perpective, then why talk about it? In my mind, when entering any discussion where the paramiter is set at "a willingness to get to the TRUTH," then when one or both parties are unwilling to admitt the truth when we arrive there, then the whole conversatoin is pointless to start. Do you agree? This is where I need you to state the difference. What is abiogenesis and how is it vastly different than evolution? This is me showing how unlearned I am in scientific terms... :blush: I look forward to seeing it! This is where the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics comes into play. Now, as I understand it, matter and energy have no ordering, or organizing principles in thmeselves. Left to themselves, they would never have produced the order around us, and left to themselves even now they would eventually reach the point of absolute disorder -- maximum randomness, or the principle of entropy. Another way of saying it is that all matter and energy tends toward maximum randomness; available energy in any closed system decreases through time. Thoughts? Let me sum this section up.... I asked a few questions I don't want to get lost... First, I would like to define our understanding of Evolution and Creation. We need to understand what each other means when we say these words, for I think they will keep coming up and it will help in guiding our talks. Second, I would like to know the difference in a theory and a scientific theory. Next, an understanding for me in the difference between abiogenesis and evolution, as I seem to have the two mixed up, or confused. Lastly, the Law. Do I have it right? And do you agree with what has been said about it? ~serving Christ in faith

Jake, brother, I believe that two different people answered you. I suppose they just didn't agree with your position on this issue? But I agree with you here....... ~serving Christ in faith

:blush: There is nothing like an undeserved compliment to make one........ :blush: !!!!!!!!!!

Fovezer, First, let me say that I am pleased, at thankful that there is someone (Saved by Grace) that you seem to be able to talk to and respect somewhat. It seems to me that people are getting worn thin with this subject, and are having a hard time contributing productively to it's conclusion. You must understand though, and I think I already stated somewhere, that this is one of those topics that hit a nerve with people. With the same veracity (sp) that you defend evolution, and see any thoughts that go contrary to that theory as unintelligent and unfounded, we Christians see any theory/belief/pattern of thought that speaks of there not being a God in the first place as equally unfounded and bordering on the verge of personal attacks against one's family. We defend with the same fervor that you do, those beliefs we hold most dear. I, for one appreciate you staying around to see this thing through. And like SAved by Grace has said, I too understand alittle about where you are. You see, my father had the very same hang-ups as you do about God, and Christianity in general. There was one time, about 20 or so years ago that a fellow pilot in his squadron came to his room one day and spent two or three hours laying out logical, and substanciated arguements for a belief in God, and for believing that Christianity was the only way to get to heaven. All fine and good, but the basis for the arguement was the Bible itself. And after this man was finished talking, my father told him that he did a wonderful job laying out a persuasive, and substantiated arguement for a belief in God and the Gospel message. "But," my father told this man, "I don't buy the basis for your arguement. I don't believe the Bible." My dad was in his early 20's when this conversation took place. He didn't come to know the Lord until he was in his early to mid 40's. My father told me this story, and what he ended with was this; He told me that all the logical, and persuasive reasoning did not have one once of effect on him one way or the other. He never had a problem refuting ANYTHING that was said in defense of God, or of Christianity. What got him thinking...more than anything else that was said to him....was seeing this man's faith being lived out in front of him. Seeing this man's family interact at dinner, and seeing this man interact with a bunch of young Marine pilots...did more to convince him than any words could have. My point is, friend, that trying to come to an understanding of God, or even more elementry, trying to come to a belief in a Creator, by it's very nature, demands more than purely physical evidence. It demands looking at interactions between varying systems in that creation. As was pointed out earlier about a single cell....concidering how small one cell is...and then considering that we have only mapped about 1/3 of it...looking at the structure, one could easily come to the conclusion of design...if that then designer....if that....then creation.....Creator. However, as seems the case with you, you could say that evolution, given enough time...could bring that up...and indeed, you stated the following: Life from non-life has been accomplished? I have not heard of that. If I could ask a few questions.... 1. When did it happen? 2. What were the conditions? 3. How were those conditions met? It is interesting though that you said it anyway. I have not heard of this claim. Then again...like my Christian brother, I am not a scientist. I just love logic. Admittedly though, more times than not, my eyes get crossed and I think I do myself more harm than good when I try to get "too logical!!" This brought up something you said earlier, and I can't seem to find where you said it. You said something about there not being any order in the universe. At least, I think that is how you put it. You may have said you didn't see any order. That is fine, but I have been thinking about that, and have come to the conclusion that I mis-understood you. You see, there HAS to be order SOMEWHERE. Take for instance, the following examples: Way back before people knew about trigonomitry, or abstract numbers, they were doing math, and telling time by looking to the stars. In fact, alot of captains on ships, even though they have sophisticated navigation equipment, still look at the stars to tell where they are going. There has to be order somewhere in that don't you think? I mean, if it were chaos, then how could we navigate the oceans before satilites and radar? Recently, we have found something even more stable and accurate than the stars to help tell time. It is called the Atomic Clock. The atom used is called cesium, and it's resonance is set at "9,192,631,770 Hz so that when divided by this number the output is exactly 1 Hz, or 1 cycle per second. "The long-term accuracy achievable by modern cesium atomic clocks (the most common type) is better than one second per one million years. Hydrogen atomic clocks show a better short-term (one week) accuracy, approximately 10 times the accuracy of cesium atomic clocks. Therefore, the atomic clocks have increased the accuracy of time measurement about one million times in comparison with the measurements carried out by means of astronomical techniques" (howstuffworks.com). Can you see that this cannot be explained by chaos? I cna't believe that even given the billions of years needed for evolution to bring us here, that this kind of accuracy could be either by chance, natural selection, or by disorder. Though I may be missing something here, it is only one area that we can look at to see an explination for a Creator. I am interested in seeing this through, and am glad you are as well. I have much more to say and ask, but I think this is a good place to pause and let you catch up. ~serving Christ in faith

*whistling while shuffling through the room with hands in pockets...."

It was me that brought the suggestion, sister! I didn't expect it to take off soo quickly though! I think that these "attitudes" are often quoted but not often meditated on. I believe that in our lives today, we have too many things pulling at our attention and trying to make our lives more and more difficult. These Christian attitudes help to anchor us in the Spirit and help us spriing forward into a more godly life. That is the whole idea of the entire Sermon in Matthew 5-7. It doesn't contain the plan of salvation and it doesn't present the Gospel. It is an "attitude adjustment" that we need to pay attention to in order to be shown the fullness of Christ in our lives. Let us take the whole of Matthew 5 for instance. There are three questions that Jesus is answering. 1. What does it mean to have Christian character? (vv. 3-12) Be-attitudes 2. What does it mean to make a difference? (vv. 13-16) 3. What does it mean to be godly? (vv. 17-48) Chapter 6 (hehehehe) talks about the pitfalls of a performanced based (outward) appearance. Jesus, in chapter 6 talks about what it takes to BE good instead of LOOK good. He talks about giving (v.2), praying (vv.5-7) and fasting (vv. 16-18). Chapter 7 finds Jesus talking about tolerance and commitment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chapter 5, verse 3. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for thiers is the kingdom of heaven. I could not say it any better than Blindseeker did. It is emptiness. It is when we realize we have nothing to offer that Christ gets the most out of us. It is getting rid of our pride. The pride that says "I don't need Him, I am perfectly content where I am." Christ cannot work with such an attitude, for He did not come to heal the healthy....but the sick! I would ask you, how content are you without Christ? How healthy are you without your Physician? Great topic, though it might be best served in the Study Forum, don't you think? ~becoming poor in spirit in Christ

john, There is nothing in this thread that says WOF'ers are part of the Body of Christ. That is your contention. There may be some that agree, but that is not what this thread is about. I do agree that we need to move beyond WOF talks though. It is getting tiresome to have soo many threads on this subject. As has been stated, and what I will now specify is that the Body of Christ is soo much bigger than WOF that we need to just let some topics drop. And I am not sure that people appreciate seeing you post that picture on almost every thread you post in. ~peace

I didn't want it to sound like I thought you were consumed. I know you better than that! And it is ALWAYS a great idea to get advice and information from different people. I just tried to post what I did without directing it at anyone. I know I was talking to you, but I was trying to explain it as if I were talking to a general audience. My fault, and I am sorry for the mis-interpretation. I could have done a better job!

I actually do have something to say on this subject. If you have read the thread on how I came to be where I am today, then you will understand where I am coming from. I believe that being single is not something to be shunned, or something to be loathed. I used to think that I was meant for someone as well, and went through all kinds of troubles finding the "right one." It was only after I gave up on that and determined to focus my energy on loving and getting closer to the Lord that He brought someone into my life. You see, our God is a jealous God. Something I learned the hard way was that when we place something....ANYTHING (or anyone for that matter) above or in front of Him, He doesn't like that....and He takes it away from us. This is not to say that our God is mean or only wants things like He wants them (although there is nothing wrong with that), it is to show us that in order for us to live as He wants...or better said....to live with the fullness of life and joy as both ourselves and our God wants, then we have to put things in the right order. God first. I believe that when we start feeling the pangs of lonliness, or rather, when we start wanting to look for our partner, then that is the time we are to drwa even closer to God. We cannot even let the idea of having someone get in the way of our serving Him. Being single is a time to learn how to live with our focus on God. Without that foundation, and without that "habit" of reading and praying BY OURSELVES that we learn when we are single, then when we DO find somebody, our priorities get out of whack. We don't have the discipline to take time by ourselves and get with God ALONE. We fail to read our Bibles because we are consumed with thoughts of the other person in our lives. This is something I am learning as I write this. Marriage, or dating is much harder when we don't have the right balance in our lives. God first. When we get that balance right, or when God wills it, then we will find someone to spend our time with, and if we set ourpriorities right at the beginning of that relationship, then that relationship will serve to spur both parties on to a deeper relationship with GOD FIRST, and then the other. I think this is why it is a bad idea for teenagers to date. Call me old fashioned, but I think their time can be best served by getting in the habit of walking their own spiritual life by themselves. Becuase as a man, when we get married, we will be responsible for not only our walk, but our wife's walk as well. And then when we have kids, theirs too. I don't think that marriage is meant solely for ourselves. There is another, more important reason for this institution....it is to shine the light of Christ in a dark, dark world. Remember, priority......... GOD FIRST!!! I hope that helped....

A very timely word. This has been going through my mind the last month or so, I could just never find the words to get it out. In our zeal to spread the Good News, we tend to forget to season that zeal with the concepts laid out for us by our Lord in His famous "Sermon on the Mount." hmmm...maybe we could do a study on it?!? ~your servant in Christ

Thank you all, but the real thanks should always go to the Lord. It is HIS testimony on what HE can do in someones life. I am just the one honored to tell it. (And it was only shortened.) The actual one is much longer.

Fovezer, I am sorry I have not had time to post anything yet. This weekend got real busy real fast! And I thought I would be able to relax!! Anyway, I am putting together a starting point to springboard opur discussion. Given your knowledge of science, I am trying to make sure I put it together correctly, precisly and coherantly for you. There are a few things that have been said earlier by you that I want to touch on before we begin, so that is wehre I am planning on starting from, but I am also looking ahead. I am one that cannot think on his feet too well, and you are much stronger in science than I am, so I have some catching up to do! I will post when I can.

That is a good size to work with. I will start getting things ready Monday probably. Do me a favor, though. Help me find the font that Mountain Dew is in. I have been looking since yesterday and have been unsuccessful as yet. ~your servant in Christ

To be honest, I haven't heard of one either. That is part of the reason I posted that link. I am reading through it too and find it incredibly interesting. I though, have been interested in this subject, and have learned about a few things like body language, and why peple react to things the way they do. Now, mind you, I am not an expert, and have a shaky understanding of all this, but it interests me none-the-less. I will get to this later in the weekend. I am at a friends house watching their dog so I don't have my links handy. I have to search for them again. This idea of the half-life of uranium in rocks speaks of a young earth theory, though it is possible to conclude the findings as shaky...or as you put it..."holding no water." I mention this as only one scientific way of presenting proof of God. Just something to make you think. Actually, they are relatively similar, though the scientist (hopefully) is basing his theory on SCIENTIFIC evidence. The layman is basing his theory on what the scientist thinks is true. At least this is my undrstanding of it. And like Saved by Grace, I too have pondered the vastness of space, and the laws in ourselves and come to the conclusion that I hold. I also believe this to be truth. BUt like he said, that has already been discussed, so we have to approach this from a different angle. That is what I am offering to do. Well, to him, it may not be an opinion, and if it is, he thinks it is based on fact, so he is well within reasonable bounds to use that to try and disprove evolution. That is what I was getting at. It is the same with you. WHat you believe to be fact, is fact to you, although there are people that consider it to be opinion. I gotta tell you that there are things you hold as fact that I think are only opinion, but then again, the opposite is true as well. It is both of ourjobs to find out what the REAL TRUTH is in order to know what opinion is. This is what I hope to accomplish with you, and it sounds like you are willing. This will have to wait til next week sometime, as I need to find my notes as I am not really familiar, and not comforatble talking about this off the top of my head (I keep telling you I am not smart )!! Well, that said, let us try to keep this thread open as long as possible. If we start branching out into other extreems, then we can start something new. If need be, we can always go to PM or email as well. I am open to pretty much anything. But this is as good a place as any for me. I know how you have been treated here, and for that I apologize profusly. I ask that you just understand that people are only posting out of zeal for the Lord and concern for your soul. It reminds me of a story of a Barber evangelist. One day, he was hyped up to witness Christ to the first person that walked in. Well, a guy came in and asked for a shave. AS he leaned back in the chari, he noticed a sign on the cieling that said, "REPENT OR PERISH!" After the Barber lathered his customer up. and as he was sharpening his razor, he asked his customer, "SO, my friend, are you prepared to die?" The customer bolted out of the shop with shaving cream all over his face!! WE have all done something like that in one way or another. It is just that we (most of the time) don't think before we speak. This is something that recently, I have been attempting to change about myself. I look forward to whatever we find ahead of us. ~serving Christ in faith well, I spoke of a young earth above with the rock thing, though I would not really consider myself to be one. I don't really think of myself as an old-earth creationist either. You thought right about the theistic evolutionist thing. I think personally it is a contradiction in terms. The God I know; the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; the God of the Bible and Jesus, is not only the Creator of all things, He is also what sustains us. So we call Him our Sustainer as well. Those that argue theistic evolution are trying to find common ground in the middle somewhere of two diametrically opposed ideas. This is where the Laws of Thermodynamics come in, but like I said, we will have to wait to get into that. To answer your question about my views, I have to say that I probably line up with Saved by Grace on this issue. I care little about a young earth, old earth, or whatever. You know I oppose theistic evolution, but that is me. I would probably lean more towards a young earth theory, though there are questions that really need to be answered satisfactorily for me to embrass that idea fully. I am open to anthing. I hold as fact that there IS a God though, and that God is the God of Jesus the Christ. I will start tomorrow (If I can find the time!)

When I get to my computer (I am house siting this weekend) I will see what I can put together for you. Thanks for the compliment on my site. I haven't touched it in a few months..but I am trying to put together a forum. I can see what you are asking for. I have it in my head, and it shouldn't bee TOO hard to put together. How large do you want it? Worthy allows 64 x 64 pixels. But you can make it resized if you want it a tad bigger. Don't have it too large though because then it will be sidtorted when resized. PEACE!

Rejoice, brothers and sisters! I want to offer to everyone that would like, a custom made avatar. If you don't know what that is, it is the picture under most peoples names. Right now, I have about 3 different ones made, but am willing to make just about anything for anyone that asks. You can either PM, email, or just respond to this thread. Thank you and may your thanksgiving day be blessed!!!!!

I think I can understand mid-trib....ad I deinately can get behond pre-trib.....but what I simply canot understand is this post-trib stuff about the rapture.....maybe....just MAYBE I should head on down to that forum and read up on it. *heads for the door that says...."DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!"*

Wow!!! I can't add anything to that. Very well said. But I think I hear a refutation in the wind.......???

Ok...I haven't read all the tings pertaining to this issue, but I wanted to lay down my testimony, and offer a tad bit of insight. For 7 years, I was willfully walking away from God. Anything I could do...drugs, sex, drinking/driving....ruining my credit history (I'm still paying for that)...abortingbabies from married women....the works.....Anything I could find to take up my time, or ruin my life, I was game....I played all the games with women you could play (and I was especially god at the shy, silent type game), I played. I got tired of it, and, from getting burned more times than I could remember, I got fed up with women. By the time I realized God caling me back to Him, I was through...I had all but renounced women in my life, and had stopped short of promising to be neutered. When I realized that God was calling me back, I reluctantly went. But I told God that I would not have anything to do with friends, fun, or girls. I told God that all I was concerned with was going to work and church. THat lasted all of about two weeks after I moved back home, because I met the singles...or rather, they met me. I was hooked. There were a few girls in the group. THis didn't cause me any concern at all, because, I told God, even though I have friends, I am NOT going to have ANYTHING to do with girls. Well, then my firend, Jeff called me one afternoon and asked that I go with him to the beach. Him and two girls. I reluctantly agreed and when I got to his house, everyone was there waiting for me. I opened the door, and with my sun glasses on, saw who would be my future wife sitting there. I knew from the look of her she would be trouble...so I purposed in my heart that she would be no different than any other girl I knew, because after all, she was a GIRL! (She still is by the way ). Months went by...in fact, the whole summer without a single problem. I was getting involved in church....had my job...and life was great. Nevermind the fact that I had broken all my conditions I set for moving back home and getting back in a right relationship with God. Funny how He works though. Then I realized something unpleasant. One of the guys in the singles group started lightly flirtting with Erin (the girl I told you about earlier). I felt a deep dislike seeing it happen. I wondered why. A few months later, I realized that my desire to be more than friends...or rather, my firendship for her had moved beyond the acceptable bounds of normal friendship. I was distraught......and mad. This is NOT what I wanted and I had no problem telling God my thoughts on what was going on. I even told Him on more than one occation that I didn't care what He watned, I did nOT want to have a relationship. I told Him to take this feeling away and replace it with a desire to serve Him more. I didn't not want a girlfriend, or a wife. ...................................Nothing happened. I noticed staring at her, and her staring back. I could not take it anymore. I had to let her know....but I was going to tell her not to worry..these feelings would pass. I just wanted to tell her so she wouldn't think I was some sicko just trying to stare and pursue her in any way. I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable is all. I laid my plan out, and prayed to God that He would let it happen the way I planned on. BUt I also asked Him to make it His timing. I picked her up for Bible Study one night....and on the way there, I destroyed my clutch. With that, I could no longer take her home and have that talk with her....and I wound up having to pay 515.35 to replace my clutch. The next payday, I got payed 516. Coincidence? Well, just one week later, I had my opprotunity. The Lord saw fit to lock me out of my house at 1 in the morning. I tried to wake people up, but couldn't... so I asked Erin if I could have a talk with her......at 1 in the morning...on a Saturday. 2 1/2 hours later, she knew my past, my feelings and my intentions on not pursuing anything. After that time I also knew she had been under the same stress that I had been. She had interest in me...and also didn't want to do anything on the spur of the moment. We talked about our intentions on starting a relationship for the sole purpose of moving it twards marriage. Neither of us wanted that yet...so we intended to let our interest in one another die out. Not so...we could not get God to take away our attraction to one another, so we took the next step after much prayer and conversation. Though we laid down some ground rules. 1. God comes first. If at anytime, we do not honor God, or put one another above Him...the relationship is over. 2. God is in charge. He takes control and gets all the glory for anything good that comes out of our relationship. He is bringing us together, and we will honor His Lordship over this relationship. 3. We will communicate NO MATTER WHAT!! 4. (note, when we started dating, I was 26 and she was 23.) We were not to be alone in a house together for any time...for any reason. We wanted to note even give the appearance of evil. 5. affection will be kept to a minimum. Basically, holding hands was fine, and a small hug was appropriate when saying goodnight. I think that was it at the time. Fast forward to today...we are getting married on December 20th. The Lord has been in control the whole time, and we have honored each other. All this to say whether or not you think it is right or wrong to have friendships with the opposite sex is largely determined by your personal convictions. There are some that have no problem at all with have friends like that. Even very close ones. Then there are some that have to gard their minds from the thought of being with anyone they get that close to. For me....I can't really go to the beach anymore because of all the girls in bikinis. My mind goes crazy. I have to guard against that. Even if I read something suggestive...my mind goes there. I have to be VERY careful on what I put in my mind...what I see, watch, look at, hear, or anything else. Some people don't have that problem, and all the power to them too!! If you feel you need to distance yourself from anyone that poses a threat to your relationship with God, then it is always a good idea to do just that. I commend you for being bold enough to take that step. It can only serve to draw you closer to God. But if you don't have a problem with having frieds of the opposite sex, then have at you!! friends are a wonderful commodity and a blessing beyond measure from our Lord. I thank God all the time for not taking my interest in Erin away. After all, it was HE that put it there in the first place. That is all, and sorry for being so long. ~your servant in Christ

I am sure you have a reason for asking, though I cannot for the life of me figure out what that reason is. I don't see how that is relevant to the topic at hand. Though I do see you still don't believe that I am saying baptism is important. I wonder why that is.......

One more time........ Absolutely noone here is saying that baptism is not important. That is you reading what you want into what we who hold a different view than you are saying. Let me clarify for you..... BAPTISM IS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO THE BELIEVER!!! Having said that....let us move on to greater things...not laying again the foundation. Where this deate gets it's fire from is the view that baptism is required for salvation. Let me say that another way..... You are of the mind that baptism is required for us to get to heaven. The other view is that baptism is a physical evidence of what happened spiritually. Much the same way our works are physical evidence of what happened in our hearts.....a.k.a. spiritually. This is why James can say faith without works is dead. If you don't have the works....you don't have the faith. That is how Paul can say we are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Again, works, or baptism (not the same thing here....just two examples) is the physical manifestation of what happened to us spiritually, which is where the important things are. I would appreciate if you quit saying that we think baptism isn't of any importance. Onemoretime, for the record...... BAPTISM IS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE!!! ~sagz..................for Christ

wonderful! I know know of what kind of links to look for for you. Though I wonder at actually finding anything you will agree with. I found that psychology one a bit over my head as well, though I figured you would understand more than I would. I want to ask you if you know anything about the half-life of (I think) uramium found in (I think) granite. It is a geological question and I am not sure how much you know about that subject. I have something interestingfor you if you know alittle bit about it. Anyway....creationists.....and evolutionists are both presenting theories based on what they find. We would do well to understand that when something is presented for, or against either case, itis presented as theory...or opinion I think is the word you used. What we base our theories or opinions on is going to be determined by our preconcieved ideas about what is true or not. It is the idea of science in general to change and mold those ideas into something based on FACT. How we get to that fact is what is the interest of each scientist (in a perfect world). What you said about evidence 8 being only opinion that doesn't hold water, is in fact, an opinion based on what you believe to be true. I can respect that, but you have to understand that people also think, and intelligently, that the opposite is just an opinion that doesn't hold any water. We would do well to undrstand and perhaps shed a little light on the Laws of Thermodynamics. They would do very well to help guide and put some boundries on our debate here. I leave it up to you which way to take this. All I ask is that we talk scientificly (new word) and not derogatorily (another new word). I am looking for sites more in line with what you are looking for. I have a better understanding on what you want. ~serving Christ in faith.

Usually, Jake, and I could be wrong on this....it would be a great study anyway if this debate ever gets over..... It is my understanding that when Jesus gave His disciples a command.....He told them....*HEY GUYS!!! LISTEN UP!!! THIS IS A COMMAND!* (of course..paraphrased) Look at a few of the following.... Matthew 22 Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' " John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command. John 15:17 This is my command: Love each other. John 18:11 Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. Unless I am reading this wrong......I will post more when I get back from Bible Study....I am WAYYYYYY LATE!!!!!

I have seen on here, where someone posted an article on Paul being a money grubbing...uncaring..ruthless individual who was out to make a buck more than save a soul. There were about 50 verses that were made to sound as such too!! :x: Hermenutics is a wonderful thing.....and it is something I am studying right now. more to follow...and maybe a new thread. And by the way.... I don't see where anyone is trying to make something Christ said as unimportant. I believe that we are ALL syaing that baptism is of great importance to a Christian. It is just that you are trying to make it a works based salvation and Scripture is most definately OPPOSED to that. Baptism is an obidience thing.....not a salvation thing.