sagz4Christ

I am honestly wrestling with this and would like some clarification. I know where you are coming from yod. And I think I may understand where you are coming from idolsmasher, but this one thing doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I should not have posted the whole chapter. Let me now just highlight a verse or two: Romans 11 Then again in the same chapter: And one more: I see this as having a direct correlation to the argument at hand. can anyone enlighten me as to this chapter? ~your servant in Christ

I would have to elaborate on what you said Mrs. Mac. Though I agree on your statement, I don't think it is the whole statement. You see, we are totally depraved. We are not righteous. We can never be....in and of ourselves.... You are right, that Christ became sin for us...but i don't think that enables us to live a sinless life. I think we can grow towards that goal, but I don't think it happens in this earthly life. We still have our flesh to contend with. What happens when we accept Christ as our substitue for sin...is we accept His bneing "made sin for us" so that our sin is no longer credited to our account. You see? We still sin...but now, as a Christian, we have the "righteousness of God in [Christ]" covering it. That sin is no longer held against us because it was already held against our Savior on the cross. We are constantly in sin....striving to wrestle our "members" into submission for the glory of our Lord....and we are NOT fit for heaven....we can never be....in and of ourselves....that is why we are clothed with the righteousnes of God so that we may BE MADE fit for that glorious setting where we will be given the opprotunity to fellowship and worship and adore and serve our Lord and Master forever and ever!! We came to Him with a penitent heart...and died with Him on that cross. He was raised so that we might be with Him also...in newness of life! It is HE that gives us the required righteousness for heaven. It is HE that strengthens us against the temptations of sin. It is HE that will eventually come for His people that have the *wedding garments* of His righteousness covering their flesh/sin nature. I truely hope this came out right. I pray that it was recieved knowing that it was written in humility of spirit and a deep longing for the return of our Lord and Risen Savior, Jesus Christ! as always ~your servant in humility in Christ

Looking at that just reminded me why I need Christ every day in my life! Praise God for Jesus Christ!! All Praise the Ancient of Days!! Amen!! ~your servant in Christ

This is the real reason: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. I don't mean to but in here. I know that this is a discussion between the both of you and I really have no right as I haven't read much of anything on this subject, but I looked this time and feel it important to interject something that might be of interest to all parties involved. As I don't yet know the implications of this passage of Scripture, I am hoping one of my Hebrew/Jewish brothers can help enlighten me to this riddle. I post here not to highjack the thread, but it seems to me that the real reason salvation came to the Gentiles lies in the meaning of this section. Though it is true what you say idolsmasher, I have to say I doubt that is the whole story. Let me explain, and maybe get some explination(sp) in return! Romans 11 9 And David says: 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. I wanted to try and pick just a section out of this chapter, but looking through it again, I realized it can't be seperated. I am positive that the answer to this question; Is somewhere in this chpater of Romans... Can someone help explain this to me? ~your servant in Christ p.s. sorry for highjacking~

This is very truth Teh, most all world religions (and even some on the fringe of society) contain varying amounts of truth. It is what makes them appealing to us suffering humans. We are looking for answers and we think we find them in the form of Buddism, Hinduism, Islam, and a variety of other beliefs and cults. The incredibly unfortunate thing about this is, a little truth isn't going to change the reality of hell. Eternal Damnation. The full payment of what is rightfully ours as a race is waiting for us amoung the half-truths and carefully guarded lies residing in every religion. Except Christianity. Artsy said it best when she questioned whether or not to call Christianity a religion or not. I don't think of it as that because I can *religiously* watch tv for 3 hours everyday at the same time. Christianity is a personal relationship with our Creator, Savior and Friend. Christianity is the only *religion* (for lack of a better term) that contains the ONLY way to heaven and eternal life. That way is through belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He came to earth to die in our place as sinners and that He rose from the dead to the right hand of the Father in heaven to bring us life. When we come to Christ in repentance and faith, in essence, we die with Christ as He did on the cross these many years ago. It is us aligning ourselves with His suffering. And if we died with Him on that tree, then we shall also live with Him in glory. A newly regenerated heart, no longer bound by the desires of this world, will long to serve, love and cherish the One who allowed us to be restored to Him that loved us first. Jesus Christ is the [only] Way, the [only] Truth and the [only] Life. And noone comes to the Father but through Him. As Paul says in the Book of Romans; I am praying that the Lord Jesus will reveal Himself to you Teh, and feraline. I know that your honest search for truth will not be in vain. ~your servant in Christ

That is some wonderful news. I heard about this on the radio on the way home from work today. I have to say though I am disgusted. I cannot believe that there are humans out there (and mothers at that) who can so flipantly and arrogantly and without the slightest twinge of guilt talk about legalizing the murder of babies. It has moved far beyond health and welfare intot the disgusting realm of desensitized words and legal wranglings. Is this where we have truely come as a nation? Where we can talk so casually about legalized killings? And of innocent BABIES at that! I have been forgiven, and recently learned to let go of my guilt for my past actions, but the scare will always be there. In God's arms is a child I wasn't strong enough to protect. Prasie God that child is being taken care of by the Best now! It makes me sick to think that people are trying their level best to get away with this. That child is a living, feeling, emotional creature as we all are this very minute. Just because it is inside a womb does not give it any less status as a human being that we deserve. It is so obvious. And obviously a ploy of the evil on himself to undermine the authority of our Lord. But again, Praise our Lord, for His victory is SURE!! May God have mercy on this nation..our souls and those who feel it important to legalize the killing of innocent children. Come quickly Lord Jesus!! ~your humble servant

There are about 15 or so teachers with pics on this site. Just follow the links to Word of Faith. Then click *quote by author* bereanfatih.com

Ephesians 2:8-9 Romans 10:9-11 Romans 8:1 Romans 8:18 Romans 8:26-28 Then there is the quote in my signature..... All above quotes are from the NASB then I continue: James 1:2-6 Ok, that is all I can find for now, brother...there are a ton more, and I suggest to you that you read SLOWLY thw whole book of Romans. What an uplifting book on the assurance of our salvation! This needs to be understood. Just as important to understand is the fact that, my dear brother, you have been forgiven!! There is no need for you to continue to beat yourself up over things that happened in the past! And if they are still happening in the present, then pray for the strength and power, through the blood of Jesus, for deliverance from that bondage! He is willing and able to show you His grace in your greatest times of need! Amen! I hope this helps. Even if it is just a little bit. ~your servant in Christ

I keep coming back to this....I don't really even know how to put it in words, but I think Galatians speaks of what I am trying to say. Galatians was written to believers who were being decieved into believeing in another gosple....one different than the one Paul preached to them. They were being infected by Judaisers (sp) and being told that they needed to do such things as circumsision to stay saved and various other things. You see, they (the decievers) came to Galatia seeking to turn people away from the cross of Christ. They did it by sneaking in a little leaven. Just a tad little lie to twist the truth it is grounded in and you have something like the Word of Faith movement. Just a microscopic amount of untruthfulness will turn the whole truth into a huge lie. This is how people like David Koresh (sp) get followers. I would even go as far as to bet this doesn't normally happen on purpose....it is something that gradually happens over time so as to even decieve the one teaching the false doctrine. *[Just] a little leaven....* It is so tiny...as to miss notice unless sensetive to such things. Look at how satan used a speck of *leaven* in the garden....I had such a hard time seeing the evilness of the whole thing for a long time...and it still requires me to almost take God at His word for sometimes, it seems a harmless question to ask...one would think..."What is the harm in that? it is a perfectly legitimate question!" But look again: Genesis 3:1-5 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, `You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, `You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' " 4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." We see the ploy of satan to undermine God's Word. It is still going on today. This is how he does it: You see it? Ever so subtle. Man, just this little section is soo incredibly packed with truth for today that it would take me all night to expound the whole thing. But let me just one more thing. How satan drove his goal home: This is how the Word of Faith seems to get their followers...it seems to me to be teaching the original tempation that we can be gods ourselves. Mormonism and a few others teach the same thing. Very dangerous and very tempting and VERY subtle....as I said. ~your servant in Christ

Yes, I agree. I might suggest something that may help you. Read a few Psalms every day and when you come across a verse or few that really speak to you at that moment, write them down on a piece of paper and read it at least 25 times that day. Just keep it in your pocket. Some of my favorite ones are: Psalm 37:7 Psalms 130 & 131 Psalm 46:10 Isaiah 41:10 Matthew 11:28-30 I could go on and on, but you will find some that really speak to you. Just remember this above all: Jesus is Lord and He wants to deliver you. He is willing and able.....are you? Jake, I really love that verse! I posted something on it last night in Absolutely Positive if you want to check it out. But I think you are spot on with your post!

I wish I knew. I can't imagine that they are THAT decieved that they think they are doing right...though I am in no position to give you a correct answer. All I can do it help spread the truth about this movement and expose the lies that these people spread. I don't know how much your brother-in-law knows about the stuff going on up at the top, but I leave you telling him about this up to you. All you can do is like any of us...expose the Truth...I urge you to check things out for yourself though and gain an honest understanding of what they teach in WoF. Here is a good place to start: All these are quotes from various WoF teachers. Go here to view the active links: http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=topics Hope this helps you get started ~your servant in Christ

artsy, I never thought much about WOF until I got here. Then I started reading what Gary and Patsy (shadow and dove) were saying about them. I read that they had a video of Copeland giving the sign of satan and his *talking in tounges* was actually calling out to the devil. To be honest, I haven't run across that so I can't really tell you from first hand experience or not. BUT, knowing what I know of the both of them, and learning what I have about WOF on my own leads me to believe that what they say is safe to believe, though incredibly scary to comprehend. I posted the links out of love and a desire for you to see the truth. I have just one more quote to give you:

opps...see how easy it is to be misunderstood? I feel small now. I figured Faith saw a post where you said you were a judge and figured..oh! I didn't know that! How interesting! And how wrong....oh well. Back to the subject at hand...... ~sagz

Wow, I never knew you were a judge. That's interesting indeed. I have some resources for you if you are interested, though I am sure you have heard of what I want to give you. It is a documentary of a man, actually, he is either a lawyer of a scientist who set out to prove that Scripture/the Bible was false and that God didn't exsist. It ends with the story of his conversion and subsequent theology. (I can't remember the guys name, I will have to look for it). If you know, then that's wonderful. You have a very keen and intellectual mind. Trained in law and more than likely very aware of human behaivoral systems. I am very unlike you. Not trained in theology, law, religion, or debate. I just try my best to study the Word and the more intellectual people that are much wiser than me. As I said when we first started debating. I never even dreamed that Christians had a problem with eternal security. I listen to two radio stations, read countless books, and have heard my share of sermons. None of them gave me cause for concern. As a matter of fact, it wasn't until I joined this board that my eyes were opened to such things as Christians believing that Scriptures weren't the Word of God or that people believed you could lose your salvation. It threw me for a HUGE loop. It shook me soo bad, I started questioning the way I believed. When I started researching on the web, I found that there were ALOT more people than I ever DREAMED who sounded like they literally HATED Calvanism (not that I whole heartedly agree with it mind you) and did their best to make it sound like those that belive in eternal security are going to hell. This caused me a very large amount of greif, to say the least. If you would like, you can go to the Prayer Requests forum and look for my post in there. That is what happened to me. But the more I searched, the more I realized the truth of God's word, and the very nervous implications of grace. I read through Galatians about 3 times, James, 1 John, Matthew, John, and now I am going through Romans and the over-riding theme is one of security. Eternal security to those who are called accoring to His name...those called according to His purpose. I need to be honest here and tell you that I am such a lousy speaker/thinker that I bought about 7 books, two of them are concordances, two are expositories on Hebrews, one is Eternal Security by Stanley (though I only picked through pieces of that). And I got proficient and searching through Studylight.com! I picked through about 7 different commentaries there and read through encyclopidias, dictionaries, lexicons..you name it, if it had words, I was in it. All to search for the truth. It is scary, Jake, how much truth varies from author to author. I do however, know one thing...and this we need to agree on before we continue in our discussion (hopefully, we will learn to spell as well! ). Everything else aside, all the theology that is interesting to study and all the commentaries that help deepen our understanding of Scripture, we need to come together in this; Without coming to Christ with an honest heart, there is absolutely no hope. Without LOVE, all our knowledge is wasted. Can we agree on this? Brother, I hate to talk like this, but the reason I keep posting in this thread...the reason I keep posting to you in particular, is because I feel some kind of connection between us. I think we are more similar than we are different (our theology aside), and that is going to make our conversing that much more difficult, for I am stubborn, as I am sure your training has made you as well! Anyway, I DO love you in Christ (as much as I am able to love someone with perfect love through a computer screen anyway! ) And I want to debate this with honesty and without striking each other. Let us reason with love and edification. I will let you know where I am coming from and I hope to understand more on how you see things....this is how we will grow and (hopefully) come to agreement (though this last one may be doubtlful, but anything is possible with our Lord in charge.) Let me know if we can continue on... ~your humbled (yet again) servant in Christ (please don't lock me up! )

It is most definately NOT hype. I was possessed by a spirit I picked up through one of those things...it is what eventually lead to my slavation, but just so you know....they are VERY dangerous. ~goodnight

<-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 non-denominational I try to stay away from those...no offense ~your sevant in Christ

Sagz, I have a question. Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus? I hope your answer is NO! Sagz, I have another question. Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus? I hope your answer is NO! Now then, if everybody to ever live has their sins paid for, who will end up in hell? If it was a literal payment, and unbelief is a mere sin, who will end up in hell? I hope your answer is NOBODY! How then can a literal payment be the correct Biblical doctrine, when Revelation 21:8 says:

I don't know if you have read the original post, but let me see if I can give you a brief outline without being biased.... Endure4salvation raised the question as to whether or not the "payment" spoken of in the bible was a literal payment or a figurative one. If it was literal, then (he asks) to whom was this payment made? He also raised some more questions for those that believe in the Penal Theory of the Atonement. They are as follows: godrulz said that the Penal Theory was problematic and offered the THeory of Moral Government as a more biblically correct interpretation of the atonement. Dad Ernie said that the term "payment" was metaphorical and went on to show some verses dealing with propitiation. He also gave the definition of the term and went on to show the similarities between the OT sin offerings and what Christ did on the cross. Dad answered the above questions with the following: hmmm...I can't go on like this...let me simplify this alittle more.... The basic tone of this thread is trying to find out if the Penal Theory of Atonement is the more accurate theory out there. It is the belief of some that have posted that this theory leads to Universalism, and it is the beleif that the Penal theory is the accurate way to look at the atonement. It is my belief that this thread is intended to try and tear down the doctrine of eternal security through the side door of the atonement. But I am probably wrong with this thought so I intend to give as much information as I have as unbiasly as I can give it. At the end, I hope to still be welcome on this board and not labeled as a heretic for defending eternal security. As of now, I honestly don't care what theory of atonement there is out there because I know what Christ has done in my life...I know where my salvation/sanctification/glorification/justification/atonement/and ultimitly, my eternal resting place will be...... In glory with my Father God and my Lord Jesus Christ! AMEN ~your servant in Christ *p.s. I hope this was a fair run down on the current standing of this thread. If not, I trust someone will come behind me and straighten things out. ~Peace

Lisha....please take this in the spirit of love from where it is intended to come. The very worst thing you can do is kill yourself. It is important that you realize that. Take it from me. I tried several times as well in my past. Even thought of it more than I care to remember. Please...let your thoughts out here....and if you don't want to do it publicaly, them pm me. I (along with a ton of others here) make a great sounding board. We have Scriptures we can give you and love we can offer. You only need do what you just did. God is most definately watching you. Have you tried to ask God for help? Have you let Him work in you the way HE wants you to? Search these questions out...but above ALL else......know this my dear friend.... Jesus LOVES you...even more than you can imagine...He died so you wouldn't have to. He took himself...spread His arms out...and shed His blood so you can be washed clean....and it doesn't matter how far away you think you are from God...know that He is but a step away from you. He has His arms outstreched for you...all you need do is reach out and grab Him! He said in His word that if you are heavy laiden...come to Him and He will give you rest... Matthew 11:28 If you bask in the brighness of His love...then His peace will be on you...and uncomprehensible peace...not as the world gives, beloved..but only as He can... John 14:27 Do you see that He loves you? Ask Him into your heart...ask Him to change you into the creature He desires of you...the creature He made you to be....you are absolutely beautiful in His sight and He wants to take your pain away and strengthen your mind and heart through love and His power. You matter a HUGE deal to our Lord, beloved...after all, He did die for you... John 3:16 We love you Lisha...Jesus loves you!! I urge you to talk this out with someone here...We can help....we can listen ~your humble servant in Christ

I am about to give you a new twist on the subject of Babylon! It is very interesting and something we all may want to look into. When I do research, I found the quickest way to find something is to go to www.studylight.com and check there first. Then if I have to search for more in depth sudy material, that is where I get my ideas for searching from. I did this concerning this thread. Here is what I found about Babylon. It is quite long, so I just took the NT I will provide the link after I post what I found. It is good...really good reading! The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia The information goes on from there, but this should spark your interest. If it did, follow this link and start reading where it talks about Babylon in 1 Peter 5:13.... Link: www.studylight.org More to come..... ~your servant in Christ

Ok, I have been looking...and wanted to find something on the major theories of atonement. I think I have come across something that will help put things in a fresh light. This essay I found lists a few of the major theories ans give the strengths and weaknesses (as far as I could tell) of each one. I will post a few (with the link) of them and see where it leads us. Link:Various theories to atonement by By David M. Williams This essay is rather lengthy, so I will post the introduction and one theory. I can post more, or we can look at the site itself....if it is needed.... This seems to be the earliest theory set up as the article says...it is why I started with it as all the other theories base their findings on some aspect of this. (at least in my studies of it...which have only been the last week or so...so I may be way off.) I leave it for you all to decide. ~your sevant in Christ

I thought that Babylon was something akin to the city of satan. Much like Jerusalem is God's city, babylon is for satan....I have heard it refered to as false religion as well. I don't know...I will have to study it for a few days and by that time...the question may have been answered....I will check back in a few days then...after some time in the books! ~your humble servant in Christ

I have a few websites to check out if you want real specifics. I will give the site, and show some information that came from them. Alot of these people have come OUT OF the movement when the Lord opened thier eyes. Studying this has been a real EYE-OPENER for me too!!! These are some of the things Duplantis has said over the years. There are more, but this should whet your appetite: *Information taken from: www.bereanfaith.com

it is exciting to see such an explosion in Hollywood of Christian based movies! It does wonders to my heart as I am sure it does to eveyone's. Maybe Hollywood is waking up to the fact that not many people like the mindless movies that revolve around sex and explosions anymore. Maybe I am dreaming....I haven't seen this movie in my area yet, but the search goes on!

To take this a step further, Truth is not relative. If something is truth, then there is no part of it that is false. If something is false, there is no part of it that is true. If something is partialy true, then that means there is something that is false, therefore, that falseness makes the partial truth complete falseness! Christianity is the only religion that does not have anything false in it. (Proven by history and revelation from God) Good post Passionate!