Luther

I initially studied the phrase because I believe that we are predestined by God to salvation, that's what I read in scripture. So when I was refuted for my belief with a verse like Romans 10:13, I looked further into it and it was a blessing.

"Your suggestion that this present earth will remain after the second coming is false, it will be the Lord's "Literal Fire" that dissolves this earth down to its very elements, nothing symbolic whatsoever as you suggest" I don't believe I said this was symbolic. I agree with you. It definitely is literal fire.

I'm sorry but I do not see this place of eternal torture in the Bible. I do read about the death of the unsaved soul and body.

Yes, that bottomless pit opening up is the same event of Satan being " loosed" to go out and deceive the nations right at the end of the world in a most spellbinding angel of light kinda way.

You quoted: "It tells the researched history of the beginning of the modern Jewish state of Israel, told in the literary style from a person's first hand experiences with the forming of the nation and the obstacles that had to be overcome." I will definitely look into it. Here is an excerpt from the book " the BAD WAR", in which we can get a glimpse of perhaps the earliest plans for a future state of Israel: AUGUST, 1897 THE 1 st ZIONIST CONGRESS MEETS IN BASEL SWITZERLAND / THE PLOT TO STEAL PALESTINE IS HATCHED The First Zionist Congress is held in Basel, Switzerland and is chaired by Theodore Herzl. Jewish delegates from across Europe agree that Palestine should be given to them. The idea of a Jewish takeover of Palestine had been floating around for decades. Whenever Russia advanced its interests in the area, Rothschild's Britain would keep Russia out. The problem is that Palestine is 95% Arab, and falls under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Turks. Unless the Turks agree to give Palestine to the Jews, the Zionist dream cannot be realized. .............................. The first Zionist congress played a critical role for sure. Also the Rothschilds big time. More on that later. I will check out the rest of your post later on. Thank you.

It's just going to be difficult anywhere you go to even mention Jesus Christ. Everyone's spiritual guard is up. But of course this is the plan.

Well that's good. I'm glad you had a good experience. I realize that not every Jew has a disdain for Christians and non- jews.

A very good topic. Years ago I had studied all the verses containing the phrase to " call upon " the name of the Lord ( or similar wording). It appears that to " call upon the Lord" in the context of the verses is something that a person does after they have been saved, in their time of prayer or supplication. I think it just means to beseech Him for wisdom perhaps, or to cry out to Him in times if distress or unrest. Which seems to be a lot lately.

Um, I was just sharing with you an article chronicling the events of jewish terrorist groups leading up to the founding of Israel, how and why it happened. A not so popular but vital part of history, if we want to keep calling this a one sided affair with the terrorist thing. Israel played it's part as well. In fact they were the first. Oh and by the by, you run the risk of getting harassed and spit on if you are a Christian in Israel, and that's not even because of preaching. As far as all the other countries, you are making generalizations. However I don't want to go over there and find out. New Jersey is the place to be! 😄

I'm sorry I do not understand. If you can help me.

This was my reply just a few minutes ago: Satan is "bound" or limited in that he cannot affect God's salvation plan. This happened at the Cross and continues to this day, when those who are held captive in sin are free, no longer in bondage to Satan. He is now bound. Matthew 12:28-29 KJV But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. [29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. ( Compare with): Revelation 20:3 KJV And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Once the 1000 years are fulfilled ( the New Testament church age) is completed, the " little season"( period of Great tribulation ) begins. Revelation 20:7-8 KJV And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Right now , even though things do not look good, and continue to get worse, the time when Satan has free reign over the nations ( is loosed), this world will look like nothing we've ever seen before: Matthew 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Jeremiah 30:7 KJV Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Revelation 20:3 KJV ".....and after that he must be loosed a little season." Isaiah 26:20 KJV Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. When this horrific time comes, we, believers in Christ will be " hidden" by the protective hand of God. We will have His word by our side.... Mark 13:11 KJV But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. ***On this subject there doesn't seem to be a rock solid verse that puts everything to rest. There are bits and pieces that relate to " binding" and " loosing" if you go on a deeper study. But Satan was surely dealt a " death blow" at the cross. Jesus freed us as we were captives: Isaiah 61:1 KJV The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a (second time) to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. ( Compare with): Hebrews 9:28 KJV So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear (the second time) without sin unto salvation. (the second time.) ......................... Isa 11:12 He will raise a [[[[[signal]]]] for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and (gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.) ( Compare with): Matthew 24: 30-31 And then shall appear the [[[[sign]]]] of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall (gather together his elect from the four winds,) from one end of heaven to the other. ( Same event, all of God's chosen or elect, 1 Peter 1:2) .............................. You said: "one forfeits profound blessings" That's your opinion, I'm blessed. ................................. "The day shall yet come when the Jews, who were the first apostles to the Gentiles, the first missionaries to us who were afar off, shall be gathered in again. Until that shall be, the fullness of the church’s glory can never come." Well, at least he made incredible sermons.

God stresses both: Matthew 24:21,24 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Being deceived by false doctrines. Some of them are going to lead many away from the truth. The " Strong delusion" in 2 Thessalonians 2 is another indication of this spiritual tribulation. " That they should believe a lie" What's the lie? And who does it pertain to ? The saved? Unsaved? I honestly can't be 100% on that one.

Satan is "bound" or limited in that he cannot affect God's salvation plan. This happened at the Cross and continues to this day, when those who are held captive in sin are free, no longer in bondage to Satan. He is now bound. Matthew 12:28-29 KJV But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. [29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. ( Compare with): Revelation 20:3 KJV And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Once the 1000 years are fulfilled ( the New Testament church age) is completed, the " little season"( period of Great tribulation ) begins. Revelation 20:7-8 KJV And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Right now , even though things do not look good, and continue to get worse, the time when Satan has free reign over the nations ( is loosed), this world will look like nothing we've ever seen before: Matthew 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Jeremiah 30:7 KJV Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Revelation 20:3 KJV ".....and after that he must be loosed a little season." Isaiah 26:20 KJV Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. When this horrific time comes, we, believers in Christ will be " hidden" by the protective hand of God. We will have His word by our side.... Mark 13:11 KJV But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

I agree that the 1000 years can represent the time we are currently living in. But I believe Satan is "bound" at this time (since the cross actually) in that he cannot affect the salvation of God's people. Sure he can still be a terror. But when that symbolic 1000 year period is over, BAM! Satan is loosed ....we are then in great spiritual tribulation where deception is everywhere and wickedness has no limits. It seems like that time is right at the door .....

You said: " Why would one "spiritualize" most of the Old Testament to fit a theology?" The Bible is a spiritual book. 1 Corinthians 2:12-13 KJV Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. No one is " trying" to " spiritualize" something when they are learning the spiritual meaning from scripture. (Many Bible teachers will call what I believe " Replacement theology" but it's more like "fulfillment theology") I believe that a lot of the language in the OT has dual meaning. For example, there is a physical " seed of Jacob" as well as a spiritual seed, all who are in Christ. All of the promises we read about in the OT regarding a future inheritance of land, " returning to Zion", a "remnant " being saved, etc., has everything to do with God's people (Christians ) in His plan of salvation before the world was created, even before the nation of Israel. In other words, Moses, for example, was of the literal seed of Israel, from the tribe of Levi. But he is also of the spiritual seed of Israel ( Christ) because he is saved. The word Christian isn't in the Old testament but people like David, Zechariah, Seth, Micah (and so on) were followers of Christ ( because Jesus Christ is LORD). It's one continuous plan throughout the Old and New testament. Most of OT Israel died in their sins. But a remnant will be saved. I think this is a good example: Ezekiel 37:21-22,24-25 KJV And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [22] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. We read about this "One Shepherd" In the New Testament as well: John 10:16 KJV And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. If you want to " read it as it is", like you say, "David my servant" to actually be King David, then you are missing the spiritual application. David is a picture of Christ. And really, that's the whole reason why the churches feel indebted to the people of Israel instead of learning the spiritual application which is ultimately what matters. ........................................ "The NATION of ISRAEL ON A MAP TODAY ... means GOD ALLOWED IT! Now ask yourself WHY?" Yeah He allowed it, but it didn't have His blessing. The nations of Israel was to never have their own land after they were expelled. It wasn't a miracle, it was political.... nastily political.

You said: " However,I do support Israel for many reasons and they are not a violent organization hellbent on death and destruction under the guise of doing it in the name of a false god" Please let me be clear. I do not, nor ever have supported any activity that would support terrorism and the loss of innocent lives. My views are different than other Christians on this forum because in the last several years I have discovered information that was always there but not out in the open. There is a mainstream/ church narrative about Israel and then there is the historical narrative. When you say " and they are not a violent organization", If I may ask, what information do you have to support your claim? Because quite frankly, this is the heart of the matter. How many of us would support Israel if they were a terrorist organization? This of course is very difficult to have others understand, especially Christians. But the information I'm finding out is all out there, you just have to look for it. I would suggest looking up "the founder of Israel", David Ben-Gurion, and get an idea of where I'm coming from. And once again, just because I understand the reality doesn't mean I have any less compassion on the people. There are quite a few Jews that would agree with me.

You said: " However,I do support Israel for many reasons and they are not a violent organization hellbent on death and destruction under the guise of doing it in the name of a false god" Actually here's the point. You say they're not a violent organization. I have to disagree because in the last two years I've found out otherwise. That's why my perspective as a Christian is completely different than most when it comes to Israel. It seems to come down to three things: 1) Understanding the historically accepted/ accurate interpretation of the last day of this earth being judgment day, at Christ's second coming. 2) Understanding that historically accepted/ accurate interpretation that any promise of land inheritance made to OT Israel was fulfilled in their time, and that there is no such thing as a future obligation from God for any nation, including the state of Israel. 3) The state of Israel that was founded in 1948 is a Biblical prophecy. However, even though God is well aware of what happened in 1948, it does not mean that it has His blessing. In other words, when they were expelled from their land, it was never God's plan to bring them back to a future nation. That is what the church understood historically up until the last 150 years. ....................................... And like I've said many times before, I do not defend or support terrorists. I would like to share with you a side of Israel that doesn't get out into the mainstream. This is an example of the information that is available, if you are willing to look for it. The following article is from TRT Global news: Magazine a year ago While a lot of western focus is on operation carried out by Hamas, little is being said about the years-long terror campaign launched by the Zionists in the 1940s. https://cdn-i.pr.trt.com.tr/trtworld/w32/h32/q80/0u_8.jpg Murat Sofuoglu https://cdn-i.pr.trt.com.tr/trtworld/w1180/h663/q70/17516908_0-158-400-172.jpeg Others Zionist terror group Irgun's propaganda poster, which calls Jews in Central Europe to join with its ranks to fight in Palestine. Credit: Wikipedia Commons After the October 7 attack, Western leaders ranging from the US President Joe Biden to British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and French President Emmanuel Macron were quick to condemn Hamas, at times comparing it to the terrorist group Daesh. But, in the 1940s, long before Palestinian resistance groups like Hamas picked up arms against the Israeli occupation, a plethora of Jewish militias were bombing and shooting dead British officials and Palestinian Arabs. The Jewish groups including Haganah to Irgun, and the Stern Gang (Lehi) actively used terrorism against the British mandate over Palestine and to create fear among the Arab citizens. “I argue that Jewish terrorism in the 1940s was both tactically and strategically significant. At the tactical level, Jewish terrorists were able to frustrate British security forces and erode their ability to control Palestine,” wrote David A. Charters, professor of military history and senior fellow of the Gregg Centre for Study of War and Society at the University of New Brunswick, Canada. “That played a significant role at the strategic level in persuading Britain to withdraw from Palestine, which, in turn, created the conditions that facilitated the founding of Israel, and the consequent creation of an Arab-Palestinian diaspora,” he said in his article Jewish Terrorism and the Modern Middle East. John Lois Peeke, an American military expert, also writes that Zionist terrorism was at the core of the idea of Israel. “Jewish terrorism against British and Arabs did contribute heavily to the removal of the British from Palestine, the abandonment of the League of Nations mandate and the creation of a Jewish state of Israel,” he wrote in his book Jewish-Zionist Terrorism and the Establishment of Israel. Zionist terrorist groups attacked with impunity not just military targets but also civilians in the 1940s. In October 1945, Jewish underground groups simultaneously targeted colonial railways, oil refineries and police boats in Palestine. That marked the beginning of a two-year period of Jewish insurgency against both the British and Palestinians. In July 1946, Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, where the British administration headquarters were located, killing 92 people. https://cdn-i.pr.trt.com.tr/trtworld/w664/h374/q70/17516734_0-0-760-754.jpeg Others The King David Hotel of Jerusalem, which hosted the colonial British administration, after Irgun attack in 1946. Credit: Wikipedia Commons “[Robert] Asprey, [Menachem] Begin and [Samuel] Katz indicate that the King David was blown up for two reasons, to retaliate for the British attack on the Jewish Agency and to destroy the secret documents which would have linked the Jewish Agency and [David] Ben- Gurion to Haganah terrorism,” Peeke wrote. Haganah was the armed wing of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, which was the operational branch of the World Zionist Organisation founded by Theodor Herzl, the founding father of Zionism, during the First Zionist Congress in 1897 in Switzerland’s Basel. The Jewish Agency for Palestine, which changed its name to the Jewish Agency for Israel after 1948, aimed to encourage, ensure and implement Jewish migration to Israel from other countries. Ben Gurion was the president of the Jewish agency from 1935 until the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948, playing a crucial role in Haganah activities. Later, Gurion became Israel’s first prime minister. Haganah means defence force, which inspired Zionist leaders in naming their armed forces as Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) after the emergence of Israel. From underground activities of the1940s, “Jewish terrorism changed to military operations, and the terrorist organization became the Israeli Defense Force,” wrote Peeke. Zionist ‘ethnic cleansing’ On April 9, 1948, Irgun and Lehi militants jointly committed the Deir Yassin massacre of at least 107 Palestinian villagers, including women and children. Deir Yassin was a Palestinian village of around 600 people near Jerusalem. https://cdn-i.pr.trt.com.tr/trtworld/w664/h374/q70/17516777_0-0-2909-3001.jpeg Others This is a mass grave used to bury 104 victims of the Deir Yassin massacre, April 1948. The round stone ring is a mass grave filled with female victims, and the square is a common grave for the men. Photo/AP The brutality of Irgun’s terrorism against ordinary Palestinians in Deir Yassin was aimed at shocking and scaring Palestinian Arabs. It was meant to force the Palestinians to leave their native lands, said Salah Khalaf, one of the co-founders of the Fatah movement in an interview with French journalist Eric Rouleau in 1979. Fatah, the Palestinian resistance organisation, is a leading group in the internationally-recognised Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO), which governs the occupied West Bank. While Fatah is now a legal group according to the international community, back in the 1960s, the US and Israel described it as a terrorist organisation much like the way they have condemned Hamas now. Hamas won the last Palestinian election in 2006. Khalaf, who is also known as Abu Iyad, vividly described how Irgun’s Deir Yassin massacre forced his family to leave their homes in Jaffa for Gaza, in his book, Palestinien sans patrie [Palestinian without homeland] which is based on interviews with Rouleau. Unlike official accounts, Khalaf said that more than 250 Palestinians were killed by Zionist terrorist groups in the April 1948 attack, whose Jewish perpetrators “riddled many corpses with batons as they disemboweled about thirty pregnant women”. The Deir Yassin massacre was a pivotal event of the Zionist ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians, who have continued to suffer from its consequences since then, according to Khalaf. Other Zionist massacres in Palestinian towns like Saliha and Lydda followed the Deir Yassin, triggering a mass Palestinian exodus, which is called the Nakba. At the beginning of 1948, the Haganah continued “its activities in close cooperation with separatist organizations such as Begin's Irgun, launched a regular offensive to clear the Arab settlements” within the Zionists’ imagined Jewish state territories, Khalaf noted. “Fearing massacres like that of Deir Yassin, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, who were abandoned to their fate, decided to leave their country to find safety,” he said. https://cdn-i.pr.trt.com.tr/trtworld/w664/h374/q70/17516826_0-0-759-491.png Others Under the pressure of Zionist terrorist attacks, Palestinian were forced to leave their native lands in big numbers in 1948. It is called the Nakba - the catastrophe. When Palestinians left they also hoped that they would be able to return to their home soon banking on the Arab states to regain their territories. But that didn’t happen. Jewish migrants from Europe and elsewhere were resettled in Palestine by the Jewish Agency with the help of Zionist armed groups. This replacement of the Palestinian population has continued till this day as Israel continues to build illegal settlements on occupied territories around the West Bank. Irgun, which for years was led by Begin, was named as a terror group by the UN, the US and the UK. But despite such a strong censure, Begin formed Herut, a right-wing Israeli political party. Begin became the sixth prime minister of Israel in 1977. Herut later merged into the Likud Party of incumbent Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Abandoning is out of the question Khalaf, who became deputy chief and head of intelligence of the PLO and the second most powerful Fatah leader after Yasser Arafat, the lifelong leader of the Palestinian resistance group, said Palestinians should have never abandoned their lands. “When I look back, I think that my compatriots made a mistake in trusting the Arab countries and leaving the field empty for the Jewish colonialists. They had to resist at all costs. Zionists could not destroy them down to the last person. Moreover, for many of us, exile was worse than death.” As people of Gaza are internally displaced in what’s being seen as the second Nakba, Khalaf’s warning might be looming over the leadership of Hamas. Leaked Israeli official documents indicated that like the Nakba, Tel Aviv plans to implement another expulsion plan of Palestinians from Gaza. The Israeli military has pounded the Palestinian enclave with airstrikes, rockets and artillery attacks for more than a month, killing more than ten thousand people including women and children as it happened in Deir Yassir and other areas in the 1940s.

At the end of all this there is the salvation of God completed in His people. None of us will have any memory of the past earth age and it's sin. As we are drawing closer to this time, certain things are starting to escalate like the Middle East. For many years I accepted the narrative like every other Christian about Israel. The difference between when God first saved me and now is that I have a clearer understanding of these people and their history. So I can't agree when certain statements are made about whom many people consider " God's chosen people" ( right there we have a misconception). The " lost" 10 tribes of Israel are not lost, they have become assimilated or blended into the nations a long time ago. So the Jews you see today have primarily the ancestry of the tribe of Judah, although a very faint anscestry, due to race mixing. With that being said, the remaining Israelites (mostly Judah) in the southern kingdom who rejected Christ went on to make a new religion called Judaism which made a book called the talmud their main authority, even over the Torah. This is what most people don't understand. Their book has a specific plan laid out for world domination. When comments are made about their victimhood, not many realize the fact that they have been expelled over 1030 times in 110 countries. You have to ask yourself why. Well, I looked into why. And all the heartache and affliction the indigenous people of Palestine ( Christians, Jews, Muslims) has had since 1948 ( and a few years before), has everything to do with the nature of these people ( attributed to their supremecist religion) and why they were expelled so many times. That's the truth. That's only a tiny fraction of what's going on. That's why I'm a different person than I was about "God's chosen people". So you have to excuse me if I don't always follow the narrative. But I would rather know the truth. Jeremiah 29:18-19 KJV And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them: [19] Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

Thank you. My personal belief is that all of the major wars in recent history never had to happen. They were caused by a ruling class of elites that financially control both sides of the battlefield, in return for promises of land ( Balfour declaration for example) or wealth and yes even the depopulation of the "useless eaters" through the loss of young men in war. I in no way believe that God has any blessing in war. Whatever we make of the Old Testament, that's the Old Testament. No one has a holy unction from God to destroy civilizations, regardless of what they believe . My main concern would be how we should value life as God would want us to, plain and simple. Obviously no one who is Godly is in control of what's going on. And my next concern is more of a sad amazement of the mindset of most Christians regarding these wars. And at the same time I can see why. It's a doctrinal deception brought upon the church by the same warmongering elites that think they are going to establish a kingdom of their own , which will be a great surprise to the Christians supporting them because they ain't going to be welcome in their kingdom. So yeah, I see a lot going on, and I guess I'm trying to warn everyone caught up in this. AT LEAST BE ON THE LORD'S SIDE and stop supporting murderers. There is no future glory for national Israel. It is a great deception. Preach the gospel to them NOW. Today is the day of salvation.

I was looking at Hebrews 12:23 KJV: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [v.28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: I believe these verses would apply to everyone who becomes saved, OT-NT. Look at "the spirits of just men made perfect," Perfect: Transliteration: teleioō Pronunciation: tel-i-o'-o Definition: From G5046; to complete that is (literally) accomplish or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate finish fulfil (make) perfect. KJV Usage: make perfect (12x), perfect (4x), finish (4x), fulfil (2x), be perfect (1x), consecrate (1x). I find it revealing that at the " rapture" (which I believe the resurrection of the " just and the unjust" occurring one time at the last day), the " spirits of just men" ( whom I would consider everyone in Christ, OT- NT) will be united with their new resurrected bodies, thus being "made perfect", "accomplished ", "consummated". The context of the chapter is clear. Receiving a kingdom that cannot be moved, and the Lord ( coming) as a consuming fire. This is the last day. What say you?

I appreciate the scripture comparisons you are doing. I think the more comparisons/ parallels are made, the harder and harder it becomes to justify this "literal" fantasy land where children are literally playing over the hole of an asp and people shaping their swords into pruning hooks and horses with bells that say holiness to the Lord and so on and so on .... Not meaning to sound disrespectful to God's Word, but clearly there is deep spiritual meaning that He is applying with that type of language. I don't understand most of it. But what I can see I want to keep posting. And receive correction or edification.

Pretty close summation. The lake of fire is the consuming fire that Jesus Christ will bring. It will destroy death and sin upon the face of the earth. " Lake of fire" is a colorful or symbolic way of describing judgment. Fire is associated with judgment.

Yes. The souls of the saints are united with their new resurrected bodies.

Oh, then I surely apologize. I don't agree with what many Jews believe, but I also don't agree with many of the ultra Orthodox Muslims as well. But in general the majority of the followers of both religions are not going over the top to gain control over others with their doctrinal beliefs. It's the supremecists in any group that cause the damage, the imbalance of harmony. Unfortunately they have the means to aquire the power necessary for tyrannical purposes at worst, division or disharmony at the least. I know there are many Jews in Israel that do not want this war. And even if I don't believe the teaching of the literal millennial kingdom, I'm not looking at the people involved any differently. I would want them to be saved regardless. How about this....just recently I discovered that my last name is the Americanized version of " Goren", which is of Polish/ Russian Ashkenazi Jewish origin. Not kidding. Growing up I never really heard much detail about my father's side of the tree. Why did they have to change the name? " Goren" is much easier to pronounce!