WillingToDie

Yes, and the rest of us speak out against them. Do you see the Muslim population at large speaking out against their "militant extremists?" Like I said in my last post, there are significant portions of Islam speaking out against the extremists. A google search brought up a few groups who do just that. Unfortunately, I have a feeling posting a link tp their sites would be against the TOS, but I googled "muslims against muslim extremists" Did I blame you for the Crusades? I simply said that Christianity has (had) its violent factions as well, you seem a bit defensive. Have I ever denied that militant Islam is violent'? No. I merely contend that ot all Muslims are a part of Militant Islam. And while the Klan may have not beheaded anybody, they cetainly were responsible for countless lynchings of fellow Christians. Again, I'm not trying to say that Militant Islam is ok because we have our own extreme groups, I'm saying that it's unfair to judge a whole religion based on the extremists alone. : Here you go. Let's blame the white folks for Africa's problems. Never mind that they have been killing each other for a thousand years. Or that they had been enslaving each other way before they were so brutally kidnapped by whites (which is most assuredly wrong), into further slavery. So, Europe's exploitation of Africa for hundreds of years has absolutely nothing to do with the current problems there? You are aware that one tactic of the Colonial powers was to exacerbate existing tribal tensions in order to keep the populace fighting themselves rather than the colonial powers, right? And then, when the Colonial powers granted them freedom finally, African nations didn't have the benefit of highly educated leaders knowledgeable in the principles of government.

Hello there, Damo. As I'm having a bout of insomnia, I'll see what i can do to address the points you made. I regards to what is being done to curb the extremists, many have denounced extremists like al0Sadr and Osama bin Laden. However, there is only so much words can do to curb extremists, particularly when they're the ones with the weapons. It's interesting that you mention Africa. Many of the problems that are occurring in parts of Africa I thik are the after-effects of colonialism. Really, I think that's to blame for a lot of the problems in the developing world. Corruption is also a big problem, but I couldn't tell you why it is so widespread in Africa, frankly it baffles me. As for the wars and such going on in Africa, this is due in large part, as I understand it, to tribal/ethnic conflicts, and has little to do with religion. I honestly don't know enough about the situations in Indonesia and Pakistan to comment, although I do hear bits and pieces about Pakistan. I will say this, though, some, if not many, of the problems in Pakistan stem from remaining tribal loyalties, and there are indeed large portions of Pakistan that are controlled not by the government but rather by tribal authorities. In regards to "Honor Killings", as I understand it, this is cultural issue, once again. Indeed, it is a carry-over from pre-Islamic culture. And I'm not sure what to make of your comment about your "sticking to the Christian faith", as I'm not sure what you're implying there. I, too, stick with the Christian faith, however I feel that the only way we can truly reach a resolution is if we all understand each other. This doesn't mean we have to agree, but I think mutual understanding would be invaluable. And yes, our religion is, at its core, peaceful, ut don't forget that we, too have our militant extremists: the Klan, Westboro Baptist Church, and of course, the Crusades.

What happened to them, anyway? How'd they go from advanced to - well - backwards? Honestly, I'm not sure. My suspicion is that it had something to do with the onset of Modernity. For whatever reason the Ottomans didn't seem to be able to keep up with the Europeans. I think part of it may have to do with how the former Ottoman empire was divided up after WWI, I certainly blame that for most of the political turmoil in the Middle East. Of course, this is all conjecture. I think I asked my Islam professor this question once, and I don't remember what his response was. However, if you're really interested, there are a few people I could ask for you

I am far from a Muslim apologist, although I'm sure labeling me as one sure makes your position easier. There's no doubt that Islam spread predominantly through conquest. However, to be fair, Christianity more or less spread through force as well (via it becoming the official religion of the Empire, not quite the same, but you get my point). My point still stands that Islam is not all about Violence, as Islam had some of history's greatest thinkers, and our Western Civilization owes Medieval Islam a great deal of debt. I'm ssure your book didn't talk about that, too much.

Okay, fair enough.

I've never understood the Evangelical obsession with Eschatology and predicting when the 'End Times" would be. Like was said before, not even Christ knew when the End would come, I think it's rather silly to try to predict when the End will come.

Nevermind the fact that, during the Christian Dark Ages, Muslim Civilization was thriving. It was the Muslims who preserved the work of the Greeks, such as Aristotle, Socrates, etc. Without the Muslim preservation of these texts, and the subsequent introduction of these Greek texts through Muslim-controlled Spain to Europe that Europe was able to pull itself out of the slump it had found itself in after the fall of the Roman Empire. It is only since the modern age that the Muslim world would be considered what we would call "backwards" It seems apparent to me that you are not familiar with the History of Muslim thought and philosophy. Fun fact: Muslims created algebra (from Arabic al-Jabr)

you caqn burn a monitor. i didn't know that An image can be burned into one, yes. Much like an old projection TV.

A screen saver is a series of images or a moving pattern of some sort. If you have XP (as most people do) I believe you can access screen saver options by right clicking your desktop and clicking options. There should be a tab for the screen saver. Standby mode will turn off your hard drive and monitor, while hibernate mode saves the state of your operating system and turns the computer off.

Gotta get one and check it out. The article states that it is on the edge, not the front, nor the back. It did not show where it is. The article I read had pictures. I think it's a rather neat idea.

-I don't believe they should need a teaching degree or any state license to teach their own children. If they were teaching OTHER peoples children then it would make sense but as long as the children are passing the tests there should be no doubts about the effectiveness of their teaching. The government needs to keep their noses out of it unless it turns out to negatively effect our culture, society or economy. I think allowing people who are unqualified to teach would end badly for the culture, and it certainly is not fair to the child, who deserves a good education.

Have you read their holy book cover to cover? Do you have an indepth understanding of what their religion requires of them? Do you actually think the people you talked too are going to say anything bad about their religion? I'm not telling you to only use one source. There are countless thousands of news articles, video clips, whatever....they can't all be wrong. Do you know what the odds are of that even happening? You have a one sided picture of these people. You need to look at it from our point of view.....the victims point of view....and from the extremists point of view. You need to get out of your box and do some research. Go to Youtube and do a search on children and suicide bombers. They're using preschool children as suicide bombers. And these are not propaganda videos. You will see the actual children telling you that they want to do this. Go and check it out. The worst that could happen is that you would learn something. Considering the amount of Islamophobia running rampant today, I'm not surprised there are countless sources the espouse your POV. Regardless, I will look into it, however, I take issue with your assertion that I am in a box. At least I am trying to understand them and where they are coming from, you willingly cling to your hatred. As for their Koran, I have read enough of it to know that it contradicts itself. More often than not it calls for tolerance and acceptance of others, while at other times it calls for forced conversion. All of this is beside the point, as my original entry into this discussion was merely to say that it is wrong to judge all Muslims on the basis of the actions of a few.

The war has nothing to do whatsoever with my beliefs toward the religion of Islam. It's a religion of hate. They're not just killing christians......they're killing each other. Over what?.....their god? They butcher their own women and children. There are fathers that murder their daughters because she looked at a boy....and their law says it's ok. A woman gets raped and then she gets sent to prison for having sex out of marrage and the rapist walks away free. And these aren't the extremists we're talking about here. These are the friendly ones. These aren't the suicide bombers. These are the peacefull ones. It is not a religion of peace as everyone says. You have the world at your fingertips. Step out of your box and do some reseach on this religion. If you don't like reading....do a video search.....check out Youtube. See for yourself what this religion is all about. You will find it has nothing to do with peace. I have taken courses on this religion. I have conversed with followers of this religion. I do not base my conclusions on media, or upon propoganda.

Are you counting the ones the were killed by suicide bombers.....the ones who were kidnapped, tortured, and murdered? Are you counting the children that are killed by roadside bombs. Are you counting the women that are raped, mutilated and shot? Are you counting the people that have had their heads hacked off? Yes I agree, thousands have been killed. Do you really believe the killing would stop if we left? Even you are not that naive. Of course the killing would not stop if we left, not immediately, at least. There's the possibility that if we left, eventually Iraq would be able to take steps to restructuring itself. This seems to be what the Iraqi people want: let us get out of there, let them work it out themselves. Of course, it seems to me that it's very likely that another Taliban type gov't would be set up, because the extremists have the guns. Thus the conundrum we are in. But I was actually referring to the Muslims that our troops kill: accidentally or not, the civilian death toll is rather high. I was wondering if this is why conservatives as a whole are so quick to demonize Muslims, because if they're devil-worshiping heathens, then it's not so bad if we accidentally bomb a school or hospital, or shoot a young boy dead in the streets. But forgive me, let's not make this about the Iraq war.

Yes, Islamic militants and extremists are. Not all Muslims. That's like saying...."I'm not defending the devil, I'm defending his demons". Muslims are just like anybody else who follows a particular religion: Many are normal people, some are extremists/militant Why are you so eager to hate and demonize Muslims? Is it because it makes it easier for you to support a war where thousands of them have been killed? A friend of mine (well, a friend of a friend) says that anytime religion is cited as a motive for something questionable, look somewhere else. Meaning that whenever somebody cites religion as a motivation, there's another reason behind it. Religion is just a pretense.

Really? You believe that the Muslim's Allah is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the I AM; YHWH; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Really? All this time you have been defending the faith of Islam without knowledge of what is most sacred to them - Mohamed the prophet? Oy vey! I can't speak for David, but I for one am not defending Islam the religion, i am defending the people who follow Islam.

There's a difference between lusting after a woman and pretending in a game. When you lust after a woman, you actually want to...do things with her. When you're playing a game, it's just that, it's a game. It doesn't mean you want to go out and use your level 3 fire spell on a goblin, or dress up like a barbarian and go around attacking people. It's like playing cowboys and indans: just because you're pretending to be a cowboy doesn't mean you really want to go and kill some Native Americans. WTG - You have completely missed the point of what I was saying. I was talking about creating a fantasy character that you take the role of who worships a false god. The Lord compares the worship of false gods to adultery . . . and with good reason. Do you love the Lord? Do you not believe He cares that you are treating His deity so lightly? Let me try this: Imagine you got a hold of some letters your mother had written. In them she had created a fantasy character with which she takes a break from reality. In her imagination, she is making love to an imaginary husband - who is not you father. Or you discover your father is having fantasy romance with a fantasy woman - who is not your mother. Are you comfortable with this? Do you believe Jesus, who died on the cross for your sin, is comfortable and OK with your fantasy gods? Russian roulette is "just a game," too you know. It's only Idolatry if you actually worship something other than God. If I do not actually worship these other "gods", they are merely a device of the game. If my father were to play a RPG game (not likely) and have a romance with an in-game character, it wouldn't bother me. It's not real life, not in the least. It doesn't even accurately portray real desires. This is all beside the point, as I understand it, the only ones who must "worship" some deity are those who play as a Cleric. If you were to play a D&D game and felt convicted to not play a Cleric character, you are free to do so. Granted, gods may be used as plot devices, but this is encountered within nearly all fantasy settings. Even Middle Earth had its gods. And D&D and Russian Roulette are not comparable in the least.

Why are you defending this religion? Are you of the muslim faith? Yes, you caught me. I'm really a Muslim.</sarcasm> Seriously people. I'm not defending Islam, I'm correcting you in your misconceptions. Second, until we can understand each other, there can be no resolution to the present conflict. There was no racism at all in her posts. Again, that is a value that YOU are assigning to her comment. Let's re-examine SP's comment. She said, "it is a god fit for people who abuse and abase women and children, who have no value on human life, and who follow a false god." [1]She did not say anything about the Arab people. The word "Arab" does not appear in that comment, and since nearly 1/2 of the Muslim world is not Arabic, you cannot assign a racist tag to her comments with any kind of legitimacy. [2]And that shows how little you know about the religion of Judaism. Islam is not a reworking of Judaism at all. I am amazed at the over-simplicity of thought with which you approach this. The core values of Judaism are not at all reflected in the abomination of Islam. Judaism is far and away superior to Islam on every level. [3] But only for a season. What you fail to understand is that Islam does not separate religion and culture. The religion is the culture and the culture is the religion. They are one and the same. It is for that reason that they see all of the pornography exported from the United States to other countries as the product of "Christianity." They see America as a Christian nation and thus, pornography is viewed as the outworking of Christianity. Our soldiers in Iraq are seen as Christian crusaders and that point is made on the evening news quite regularly. They see this as religious war that they have been engaged since the crusades. It is all about Islam, and making the world Islam. There is no separation in their minds of religion and government or religion and state. [4]First of all, I did not say that Muslims are "inherently violent." Don't put words in my mouth. Historically, in every country where Islam is in the minority they are peaceful. But in every country where they become the majority or start becoming the majority, they become less and less tolerant of their host country. [5]Secondly, one thing you need to understand is that there are some Muslims the US who are not practicing Muslims. They have values of freedom, equality, social justice, and support freedom of speech, freed of religion and so forth. But that is not a reflection on Islam. It is because they are not connected in any meaningful way to Islam and have adopted western values as opposed to the values of Islam. One can be a Muslim in name only in the United States. However, that is not possible in Islamic countries. [6]Thirdly, this notion of "its just a small minority of Muslims who are violent" is just a liberal fairytale. But I'll tell you what... I will for the sake of argument agree with that assessment. Let's say that that only .1% of the Muslims worldwide are violent. Now given that population sits about 1 billion Muslims worldwide, .1% of that would 1 Million. Would you like to have that small minority of 1 Million suicide bombers unleashed in your country??? Even a small minority, is still way too many. The fact is that there are far more than .1% of Islam involved in terrorism, and even if you are only counting the ones who actually carry out the deed, you still have to take into consideration, all of those in support positions who worked behind the scenes to make the attacks successful. They are terrorists too, and the number increases radically when you take all of the support teams and masterminds who actually thought up and provided the finances, transportation, equipment, planning, support, encouragment and inspiration necessary major and minor terror attacks to take place. [1] I'm well aware that the majority of the Muslim population is not Arabic. However, originally, they were all Arabic. Islam is a religion designed for the Arabic people. By saying that Islam was designed for "for people who abuse and abase women and children, who have no value on human life, and who follow a false god", she is saying the Arabs, for whom the religion was tailored to, "abuse and abase women and children" and "have no value on human life". Still, even for the sake of argument, let's say that her comment was not racist, it was still certainly Xenophobic [2]Yes, it was an oversimplification, both Islam and Judaism are much more complex than that statement implies. However, many of the laws and rules for Islam go back to Judaism. Historically speaking, Muhammed would have been very familiar with Judaism, as well as Christianity, and used that knowledge to create Islam. [3]Then how is it that so many Muslims are living in cultures where Islam is not the norm? Furthermore, my Muslim friends (of which i have several) have no desire to make the US a Muslim nation. [4] Could you provide examples? [5] I disagree, I can think of several of my Muslim friends who are devout Muslims. they still hold to our values. [6] No, the violent Muslims are indeed a minority. Most Muslims, even those in predominately Muslim countries, are people just like you and I. It's just that you only ever hear about the violent Muslims. And did I say we should give the extremists free reign? No. We need to find ways to curb extremism (of all sorts) and deal with those extremists that still remain.

It doesn't glorify anything, in particular. It's a game. Just because it's a game doesn't mean it can't glorify anything. A game can glorify things. So is your opinion that it doesnt glorify anything simply on the fact that it is a game, or that it really is possible to play the game without glorifying anything contrary to God's word? The second one, mostly.

It doesn't glorify anything, in particular. It's a game. When Yeshua "fulfills" the law, He gives it "fuller meaning" In Matthew 5:27-29, He clearly takes the letter of the law and shows the intent of the Torah to be one of judging the heart. In this dissertation, Yeshua shows that our thought life becomes even more important than our behavior because it reveals the true motives of our heart. If we lust over other lovers, that would be fantasy. According to the Lord that isn't simply "harmless". It would be better to go through life with an eye removed apparently....and that sounds serious. If one plays an RPG and they create a role that enhances understanding of the spiritual reality of the One true God I wouldn't see a problem with that. Anything else seems like sorcery to me. God has some serious things to say about that also... ooohhhh.... very good, indeed! to neb: why not? it's not real. like I said, it's fantasy. Adultry? Of The Mind? Isn't That Called Porn! As Most Things On Earth These Days, The Thing About Fantasy Games Is They May Pull Our Eyes Away From Jesus. "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Philippians 4:8 And As Brother Yod Stated, Meditating On Them Could And Has Lead Many Into Demomic Harms-Way. Want Romance? Read Ruth Want Wild Adventure? Read Judges Want To Travel Back In Time? Read Genesis Want To Look Into Tomorrow? Read Revelations Hint! The LORD Jesus Is The Center Of Each Story~! There's a difference between lusting after a woman and pretending in a game. When you lust after a woman, you actually want to...do things with her. When you're playing a game, it's just that, it's a game. It doesn't mean you want to go out and use your level 3 fire spell on a goblin, or dress up like a barbarian and go around attacking people. It's like playing cowboys and indans: just because you're pretending to be a cowboy doesn't mean you really want to go and kill some Native Americans. No. Not even remotely. There are spells to manipulate other characters but they're neither evil nor required to play the game. Likewise there are spells to kill other characters where they stand, raise the dead or change the entire world on a whim, but they're also not necessary to play the game. Yes, you take on an alternate identity - that's what role-playing means - and yes, they're fantasty characters. Knights, thieves, elves, dwarves, and yes, wizards. it's no more evil or witchcraft than reading a Dennis Wheatley novel. I actually thought the witchcraft delusion was over... What you describe seems like it could be harmless if its a game that one plays on a board...but when it's a role playing game it creates an alternate reality that someone lives for the duration of the game. My friend, for example, would live an alternate reality for weeks (if not months?) at a time. Of the millions of people who play this particular game, how many enter a reality that isn't based on the spiritual reality of the Kingdom of God? Anything other than that is consulting mediums, imo. It opens the player up to a world of spirits and magic that isn't an accurate biblical reality. Over time this could seriously lead them astray as it did with my friend. So what it "could" be doesn't matter....what it "is" does. Your friend is a special case. Some people don't like their lives, ans therefore use their hobbies as a means of escape. Sometimes, if that hobby happens to be roleplaying, they allow themselves to be absorbed into that world. Again, that is a special case. Like I said, i had many friends in High School who played D&D and its derivatives, and none of them were ever "drawn into an alternate reality". It was jut a game to them.

Or maybe their patriotism is of a different sort.

ooohhhh.... very good, indeed! to neb: why not? it's not real. like I said, it's fantasy.

Actually, as I recall, it rules against homeschooling by parents who are not properly qualified. I believe that parents wishing to homeschool their children must have a teachers certificate of some sort.

Clearly you're not terribly familiar with the game itself, only the anti-D&D hype. I'm not into.any games where you can't sling your opponent to the ground or give them a full impact bruising however I am familiar with much bad fruit from D&D. in the late 70s a bunch of my friends began playing and some of them still haven't recovered from the fantasy world they created. maybe...just maybe...a christian would be able to handle it better but none of us were christians back then and they were opened up to a dark spiritual world that confused fantasy with reality too much for me (an atheist at the time) That's unfortunate, but some people do allow themselves to get too caught up in the game. However, that is not teh games fault, but rather a weakness on the person's end. 1Cor. 8:6 - yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. Exodus 20:4,5 - 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Think of it this way - would you want your girlfriend/wife to create a fantasy boyfriend/husband that her fantasy self trusts in? It's fantasy. Fake. Most people are able to differentiate between fantasy and reality, unfortunately not all can, and it does sometimes lead to unfortunate results. But playing a game in which there are other gods is not the same as actually worshiping these other gods. Of course, there is a danger of making the game your god, but that is a danger with any other hobby.

You don't see a problem there? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I know you didn't mean it this way, but your right............it is a god fit for people who abuse and abase women and children, who have no value on human life, and who follow a false god. This statement is dripping with racism and xenophobia. Islam/Muslim is not a "race." Yes, but he was saying that it was "fit for people who abuse and abase women and children, who have no value on human life, and who follow a false god", referring to Arabs. So yes, I still hold that there was a degree of racism and xenophobia behind SPs statement. No, you are trying to make it "racism" in order to have a reason to criticize the statement. The fact is, over half the world's Muslim population is not Arabic, and Muslim/Islam is not a race. Islamic culture is brutal and oppressive. That is not a raciist comment, it is just the truth. Islam does not have a separation of secular and religious, or a separationg of religion and government like we have here in the West. Islam is, at the same time the relgion and the government. There is no difference between the two. Muslim culture is based on the relgion. In the West Christianity is just one component of West Culture, but in in Islam, Islam is the culture. The oppression, gender apartheid, poverty, brutality (female mutilation, honor killings) is part of Islam. When one looks at countries where Islam is the majority, ruling ideology, there is nothing but persecution/murder of nonMuslims, poverty, oppression, bloodshed and hate. Islam has not given anything good to world. All it does is destroy. Islam is a blight on humanity. It is a disease that needs a cure, namely Muslims need Christ. He is the cure for the sickness that is Islam. No, in context, it is a comment with racist undertones. I said that Islam is a reinterpretation of Judaism fir for the Arab people, and she then made her comment . Most of the brutality you see in today's Muslim countries is due in large part to culture. Yes, today many muslim countries are oppressive, but this is not historically the case. When the Muslims controlled Jerusalem before the Crusades, they were very tolerant of Judaism and Christianity. And if Muslims are inherently violent people, then why are the several million muslims in America not going on killing sprees? The truth is that only a small minority of Muslims worldwide are violent. Yes there are passages in the Koran that call for violence towards non-believers, but there are also passages that call for tolerance for Christians and Jews. The book contradicts itself, but this is not to be expected, as it is a man-made book.