Trust & Obey

Can there be any doubt about this? It is the Church, of course. 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. We are "espoused to Christ." We all know Christ is the bridegroom. So, seeing that Christians are espoused to Christ, this must make us His spouse. ********************* Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Who is the head of wife? It is the husband. Who is the head of the Church? It is Christ. Her (the Church's) Husband (Christ).

Nobody is playing us. 2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

According to John l:1 Jesus is God. Then how many Gods are there? Two at least. This contradicts many passages in the Bible: Deuteronomy 4:39: "... that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord", (Isaiah 43:10-11): "... that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no savior"; (Isaiah 44:6): "Thus saith the Lord ... I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God"; (Isaiah 45:18): "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Long before Jesus was born, God said to David (Psalms 2:7): "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David]: 'Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."' So David is also God's begotten son. The meaning of "Son of God" is not literal but metaphorical. It can be anyone who is beloved by God. Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Sam, that is a prophetic passage about Messiah. Just because David penned it doesn't mean that David is the Son spoken of here. Just like David wasn't the one suffering all of this: Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. This, too, is a prophetic passage about Jesus. Yet, David wrote it.

I have also made the point that such is not issue being discussed. It is a forgone conclusion that we are not saved by the Law. But it is incorrect to say that if we could keep the law perfectly Jesus would not have needed to come. Keeping law has nothing to do with why Jesus had to come. Even if the law was kept 100% Jesus would still have needed to die for us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jesus came to die because we all sinned. If we could go through life without sinning then Jesus would not have had to come and die. Shiloh, I think you are minimizing the sacrifice of Jesus. Do you realize that in eternity past Jesus was the Word (logos)? He had a perfect unity with the Father. In coming to earth, Jesus cloaked himself in human flesh. The "step down" that this was is incomprehensible. But, the really moving part is this. Most people think that once Jesus died and rose form the dead that He went back to the Father in the same exact state that He always was... Spirit... Logos. This is not true. Jesus is a MAN. Both now and forever! Jesus forever will be a MAN. There is a MAN sitting on the throne of God. If this doesn't move one to recognize the sacrifice of our Lord, then I don't know what will. And, when one grasps the magnitude of this it will show to them the great love of God for us and the desperate condition that we are in.

According to John l:1 Jesus is God. Then how many Gods are there? Two at least. This contradicts many passages in the Bible: Deuteronomy 4:39: "... that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord", (Isaiah 43:10-11): "... that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no savior"; (Isaiah 44:6): "Thus saith the Lord ... I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God"; (Isaiah 45:18): "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In the OT God is often referred to as "Elohim." Elohim is a plural form of "God." The singular version of God would simply be "El." So, by using "Elohim," it literally says "Gods...." plural. You do not appear to be seeking answers, only arguments. So, to this end I'll leave you. Peace.

Of course!! How are the ten commandments not doable on a consistent daily basis? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. If anybody could keep the perfect law of God He would not have needed to shed the blood of Jesus. The law was never intended to "be kept and to attain righteousness through." Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: The law was given so that we would become more guilty not more righteous. Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. The law was designed to bring out the wickedness of sin. Anyone who puts themself under the law puts themself under the curse. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. The law has no place in a Christian's life. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law). Once we come to Christ we have absolutely no need for the law. The only purpose of the law in the Chrisian's life is that of witnessing to others (non-believers) that they stand guilty under it.

what do you mean by son pls we are all son of god or only jesus is son of god pls let me know that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sam, Jesus is "the only begotten of the Father." Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. So, Jesus is the Son of God because He was directly begotten of the Father. Christians are children (sons and daughters) of God by adoption. Big difference: Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: We are simply adopted into the family of God. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> SO HE IS NOT GOD ,HE IS SON OF GOD <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What you are missing is the fact that Jesus existed before the incarnation. Before John 1:14 there is John 1:1. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Who is the "Word?" Who is it that was "made flesh and dwelt among us?" It is Jesus. But, He existed before being "made in the flesh." Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So, we see that Jesus was "in the beginning." What does that mean? It means that Jesus goes back as far as God does in eternity. Then, it says "and the Word was God." Another reference to His Godhood and deity. If you do not accept it, that is your choice. But, it is plainly declared, my friend.

Sure. Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Here Jesus challenged Thomas to believe that He had indeed raised from the dead. When Thomas realized that this was true he said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God (ho kurios ho theos... theos being the greek base of theology.. namely, "God"). Now, Jesus's response to this is noteworthy. Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling Him "God," like Paul and Barnabas did when they were called gods (Acts 14:11-15). Nor did he rebuke Thomas like the angel did when John fell down at his feet to worship (Rev. 22:8-9). Rather, Jesus acknowledged, approved, and commended Thomas for recognizing this. Jesus said, " because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed..." The question is, believed WHAT? What was Jesus referring to? Well, Jesus was referring to Thomas' admission that Jesus was indeed his Lord and his God. It couldn't be any clearer than that. If Jesus was not God, then surely He would not have allowed Thomas to engage in this blasphemous idolatry. Jesus Christ is God inasmuch as the Father and Spirit are God. Amen!

what do you mean by son pls we are all son of god or only jesus is son of god pls let me know that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sam, Jesus is "the only begotten of the Father." Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. So, Jesus is the Son of God because He was directly begotten of the Father. Christians are children (sons and daughters) of God by adoption. Big difference: Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: We are simply adopted into the family of God.

AMEN MY BROTHER!!! The Big bang theory, God said "Bang" and it happened! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Bible does teach about the Big Bang Theory. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. The term there "great noise" is "Big Bang" in the Greek. But, the scientists have it backward. The Biblical big bang doesn't explain the origin of the earth, rather it explains the destruction of the earth.

I agree with some of what this person says where we shouldn't go to church to be entertained or worship to be entertained but what is wrong with going to a concert where the band is playing worship songs? Why can't we let God entertain us through movies and music and literature as long as it is scriptural? I remember a while back when there was a big stink about wrestlers bringing "christianity" into their shtick. This was obviously wrong as the whole idea of wrestling alone , goes against scripture. But would Jesus rather have us going to a rock concert that glorifies His name, or to some death metal concert that glorifies the absence of God? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What's wrong with wrestling? If you are referring to the WWE wrestling on TV then I know where you're coming from. But, wrestling, in and of itself, is just a sport/activity. Plus, we know Jacob wrestled with God (Gen 32:24). Rachel wrestled with her sister (Gen 30:8) And, of course, we wrestle against the forces of darkness (Eph 6:12) But, all in all, I think Tozer's point is that our mission in life is the Great Commission. To follow Jesus with all of our hearts and to lead others to Him. Sometimes it can appear that the Christian world is living sort of a normal worldly life in that the daily pursuits are for those things that entertain. Sort of a "Christian hedonisitic" lifestyle. Nothing is wrong with enjoying life, but the problem occurs when we now have a Christian version of everything that the world offers. Remember, we are to conform ourselves to Christ, not conform Christ to the world.

Thank you for the link. I love AW Tozer. One of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time.

I would say "no." Because, according to my understanding of science, God does not have any "biology." God is spirit. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Um... 1 Timothy 1:4 - Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:16 - Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. Naw...doctrine isn't important at all man... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WSB, you completely missed the point of the question, my brother. The question was whether or not belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation. I think the answer is clearly no. If you think otherwise, that is fine, but please demonstrate it from Scripture if you are going to hold others to the doctrine in this way. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok. First let me make a distinction. The word "Trinity" is unscriptural, and actually has its origins in hinduism, but the word "Godhead" is scriptural, as is the fact that God is one being in three persons. Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: So we see we are baptized not in the name of Jesus only, but in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Mark 15:34 - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. So then we see that the entire Godhead was involved at the cross. If the Father and the Son are not two seperate persons, then Jesus was just totally out of his mind, talking to a nameless father and telling him to recieve his spirit, etc. As I showed already, the death and resurrection of Jesus would be impossible if God were only in one person, because he had to die AS A MAN, and no man can resurrect himself. Jesus was raised not by himself, but by God the Father. Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. If you don't believe in a a tri-partide God, then you don't believe Romans 6, 7, or 8, John 1:1, 14, I John 5, Rev. 4 and 5, Genesis 1, John 14, 15, and 16, and many other passages. You may as well throw the Bible out the door and go read a Koran, because you are just as much serving "Another Jesus" as the Muslims are if you are willing to disregard conclusive evidence from the Bible that God is one God in three seperate persons. It is in plain text. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WSB, so, back to the original question. You feel that it is necessary to believe in the Trinity for salvation? My question to you: Did the thief on the cross believe in the Trinity? And, if belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation, why didn't Paul say so here: Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Did Paul lead him astray? Did Paul not give him the full gospel? Nay, belief in the Trinity is not a prerequisite for salvation. I do believe in the Trinity according to my reading of Scripture, but nowhere is it listed as a condition of salvation.

I disagree. God has put certain things in our control. That would be like saying it is a lack of faith to wear a seat belt while driving. For, it is God's will whether we live or die in an auto accident. Or, we could take the argument over to vaccines. Whether we get sick or not is in God's control. So, vaccination is a lack of faith. Or, a lock on our front door or car. Whether our house or car gets broken into/stolen is in God's control. So, using locks is a lack of faith. etc., etc.

Another passage on the deity of Christ oft overlooked. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Look at how the apostle Paul uses the terms "Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Christ, and the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead" so interchangeably. Obviously, Paul thought Jesus was God. In 8:9 Paul says, "if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Then, Paul, as though continuing the same thought, says in the next sentence: Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. So, having the Spirit of God is the same as having the Spirit of Christ. John the beloved concurs: 1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Amen, amen, and amen!

Rob, from my reading of Revelation I interpret it in a chronological order, just as John was instructed to write it down. Namely, chapter 2 comes after chapter 1, and chapter 5 comes after chapter 4, etc. It could be possibly to have a reference in chapter 6 of something occuring in chapter 5 (hypothetical example), but I don't think I would take a chapter, or a series of events, and displace them in the book. If we were to do that, then you could have dozens of different stories being told. And, there is no practical reason to do it. If you think about it, the only reason someone would want to do that is in order to make the book of Revelation fit into an already held view on "what is supposed to happen." That is called interpreting the Bible based upon your theology, rather than basing your theology on the plain reading of the Bible. That is having the cart before the horse.

Well, since this is a message board I'll chime in here I find no Scriptural support for the anti-contraception view. I do understand that some forms of contraception are abortifacient, rather than contraceptive in nature, and hence they should be avoided in the respect of life. But, nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to have as many children as the womb will handle. I once heard something on this that I really liked, and here it is. In 6 days God created the heavens, the earth, and all that in them is. And, on the 7th day God rested. Was God tired? No. Did God run out of things to create? No. Then, why did God "end his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made (Genesis 2:2)?" Because, "it was very good (Genesis 1:31)." So, too, as a parent I can look at my 2 children (and the 3rd that I have on the way), and say, "it is very good. I will end my work and rest." Just because we are "able" to continue producing children doesn't give us a mandate to do so. God was able to continue creating and he chose to rest from His labor. And, after my 3rd child is born I, too, will choose to rest from my labor by having a vasectomy (non-abortifacient). Regarding the rosary, I find no biblical support of it at all. And, the only reference to the concept I find in the Bible is in Matthew 6:7 and it is not positive. But, I do feel that there are RC who are genuinely saved. It isn't our denomination or religous affiliation that saves us, rather it is the blood of Jesus Christ that saves us. Salvation depends on Who you are trusting, not where you are fellowshipping. I have known true believers who are RC. For me, I do not understand how one could be a genuine believer and be "at home" in the RCC. But, that is between them and their Lord.

The Living Bible is a paraphrase, not a translation. Therefore, it is a man's interpretation of the word of God, rather than the word of God, itself. Even so, it is of great benefit, especially for very young readers, due to its simplicity. It isn't without its problems, but even the best translations are so constructed. I would not make the LB my primary source of God's word.

Hi, Rem... I think Revelation is in a pretty sequential order. Do you remember what John was commanded to write down? Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; That is a sequential listing of events. Past (which thou hast seen), present (the things which are), and future (the things which shall be hereafter), in that order. This makes the plain reading of the book of Revelation easy to follow and easy to understand. It is only when you deviate from this that Revelation becomes confusing and hard to digest.

WSB, my mistake and you are correct. It was a typo. I meant Rev. 5:9-10, not Rev 7:9-10. It is true that the saints in Rev 7 are Tribulation saints. The concept of a pre-trib rapture isn't anything extra-biblical. Jesus promises it to those who follow Him: Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. So, "keep the word of His patience" and He will "keep thee from the hour of temptation..." Pretty straight-forward. Brother, I don't want this thread to turn into a Trib debate, so let's start a new thread if we're going to continue the conversation.

I agree (that it is referring to Israel), because the Church is in Heaven during this time (ref. Rev. 7:9-10). Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. The wording "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" most definitely refers to the Church, as we have been redeemed from all nations and tongues. And, as has been stated previously, Christ came out of Israel.

Hi, catsmeow. I understand your sentiment. It makes sense to me, too. But, I guess we need to put ourselves in the shoes of the President (and the First Lady by extension). In a time of world turmoil they are making attempts to aviod an all out Arab/Israeli-American war. I agree that lies have been uttered in the name of Islam. Bush has repeatedly called Islam a "religion of peace." This is obviously absurd. Regarding taking shoes off before entering the Dome... all I can think of is this: 1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. I don't think it is that big of a deal to show certain signs of respect for cultural issues, even with this one. For example, my wife just had a friend of hers pass away. This lady was a Buddhist and was not saved. My wife, out of respect for her friend and her family, attended the funeral at a Buddhist temple. I did not see anything wrong with that and, if anything, I'm sure it aided in building a bridge to her family. But, as with all things political, there are different viewpoints and I understand that. As long as Bush isn't praying to Allah and offering incense at the altar, I don't see a big issue with it. We have to remember that Bush, although a professing Christian, is President of the US and therefore is a diplomat and ambassador.

Bush, like many before him, is trying to broker some sort of peace in the Middle East. We all know that true peace will not come until the Prince of Peace does. But, Bush is trying to appear even-handed to the Arab world. I personally do not think we should be giving them so much money, but Bush probably thinks this is what Abbas needs in order to get some security infrastructure in place to contain terrorism. Whether or not Abbas really wants to curb terrorism is something altogether different to discuss. Let's remember... God loves the Palestinians, too. Jesus died for them, too. They are gentiles, as am I.