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Dwink, Your post made me remember something. My 2 year old calls our pastors baby (who is named Mia) "nemo". Have no idea where she got "nemo" for Mia, but it stuck!

It is difficult to really understand the "tone" of a post over the internet, but..... Nick's girl, I took your last post to be very judgemental. It was the last thing I read last night before going to bed and I wanted to reply then, but I thought I had better sleep on it. (this is not directed solely at Nick's girl, just fyi) I think it is important to remember a few things whenever we are coming to decisions or stances on issues such as this. 1. we need to consider the WHOLE teachings of the Bible and look at passages within the context (cultural or otherwise). Some people may not see that as very important, but it really is. We need to know what Paul (or whoever the author is) is talking about to understand the instruction. Let me just give a "what if" scenario to illustrate what I mean. (I am not "down talking" to anyone, I am just a person that understands things better with analogies or examples. It helps me get a clearer, more concrete picture of things) Lets pretend Paul went to China and began a church there and when he left he wrote a letter to the congregation there. He remembered the practice of "foot binding" (for anyone who does not know what that is check out China Foot binding, granted this practice didn't start until about 960 AD, but follow me here...) and in his letter he instructed the people "not to practice the binding of your daughters feet". That statment seems to be very clear and to the point, but if we were reading that today and not taking into consideration or bothering to find out what he was referring to, we could conceivably be arguing over letting our daughters wear shoes with laces in them. See what I mean? 2. We need to seek GOD when wanting to gain understanding. We cannot rely on other people, no matter how good they are, or doctrine, no matter how good it may be, to be our sole source of understanding. That is what the Holy Spirit is for, that is what God wants to do, teach us! Proverbs 3:5-6, Psalms 119, and others teach us that we must come to Him for understanding. Nick's girl brought up some scripture from 1 Timothy 3 regarding overseers and deacons. Again, I think context and looking at the surrounding scriptures and prayerful consideration is important in understanding what is being said. I'd like to encourage anyone to read through chapter 3 and continue on to chapter 4 and consider why those two chapters would be right next to each other. Pray over it as well. These are things I have done and continue to do. I do not hold that I have the final word on this (or any) issue, but I do sincerely pray for understanding from the Lord and my current stance is one I feel I've been led to by Him. All I want is to be obedient whatever that means I need to do. I will agree all day long, every day that a woman should submit to her husband, that all christians submit to authority and leadership, and that God is THE authority. I will agree all day long that there are instructions given to us in orderliness of worship and that leaders must be Godly and obedient and willing to heed the Lord and to be used by Him. Sorry this is so long, I didn't start out thinking of a long post, lol! I understand that this is something christians may never come to agreement about. That is between each of us and the Lord. However, I know that we agree that God is the Lord over our lives and we each desire to seek Him. I am glad that He is patient with us as we muddle through! May God bless each of you!

"Clear as mud" LOL! I have a way of making things "clear as mud", huh? Anyway, yep, I think so too!

In our churches case, Shelby, single women officers are still under authority (DC's, THQ's, etc) so we are still within Biblical guidelines. I was just saying I agreed with what the woman missionary did, letting the local men who rose up from her ministry to pastor their congregation in their community. Also, I think the explanation of the passage establishing submission of women to their husbands authority is a more accurate take on that passage. I know Katie. But people keep throwing out the words "Senior Pastor". THere are many in our church who are that and a woman. 2nd, we do have DCs, TCs, etc who are over us who might be men, BUT what about Eva Burrows? That is what I mean. I have read through the discussion after this, (sorry I ahve been on vacation, that is what took so long), and I see that the disticntion has been made between your husband and pastor, verses any man on earth. JMHO Hey, girl, hope you had a good vacation! Anyway, I guess I didn't clarify. lol. I didn't mean under MALE authority because there are DC's TC's, generals, etc who can or have been female. My point was that no matter who you are you are under some kind of authority. And I think Biblically ALL christians are called to submit to authority (government, leaders, our bosses, etc), ulitimately God's. As I was trying to say with SuperJew, I think when the Bible is speaking of women submitting to men, specifically it is talking about in the marriage relationship. When you look at the context of that day, though, all leadership was men, so when they were told to submit to other authorities, they happened to be male, but that was not the Biblical qualification. Does that make sense, or did I confuse it more??

I love this thread! It makes me smile! When I was growing up my parents called me "Katie-wait-tates" (I have no idea why!) and my best friends mom called me "Kay-kay-hee-hee" because I make a literal "hee hee" when I laugh. My kids are called some silly names: Monica (7) - Sissy, (she's the oldest sister), Baby girl (by her Grammy), Sweet pea (by her grandma) Nathan (5) - Bud (after "Rudy's" friend on the cosby show....I liked the way Rudy said it, so I started calling him that), Big Mac (his middle name is MacKenzie) Autumn (2) - Boobers (my hubby just called her that one day for whatever reason and it stuck)

Just a side note.... I went and read the first post of the thread that George linked for us here. I agree with what was said in that post. And while I completely understand the frustration we feel when it comes to finances and spouses making "surprise" purchases, I have come to handle these situations much differently than I did when we were first married 8 years ago. I used to freak out and yell "WHAT?!? We don't have $50.00 for 5 new CD's!!! What are you thinking??" He would get defensive and yell back, "Well, you just bought clothes!" and I would get defensive and yell back, "They were on sale for $5.00" and so on and so on. You can see that never got us anywhere productive. It is VERY hard not to fall into this! Now, I will still voice my concerns in a gentler way, "Honey, why didn't you let me know you wanted to buy those CD's, I could have budgeted better so we would have more room to get those." his response, "oh....I'm sorry, I didn't think about it, do you need me to return them?" (usually how it goes something like that) See, that is much better. And honestly, if I need those returned to buy groceries, he will, but if I was counting on something maybe not as nessacary (like a new pair of shoes) then I will tell him not to worry about returning it. He also handles my extra spending (which I admittedly do occasionally) in the same manner rather than ranting and raving.

I feel the EXACT same way!!!

ok, I'll share more specifics. (BTW, Tess, congrats on your new nephew, that is a great way he got his name!!) As I said earlier my first name is Katie One of my middle names is Elizabeth and the other is Sennia (derivative of Jennifer in Finnish, after my Finnish grandmother) My kids: Monica (advisor) Gabrielle (female form of Gabriel the angel) Nathan MacKenzie (this is horrible I forgot what his names mean! have to look it up) Autumn (for the season she was born in) Cristina (follower of Christ and after her grandmother)

AHH! Got it now! yes I believe that is true!

LOL! Beth, I needed this tonight! :hug:

I posted my testimony in the "testimonies" forum when I first started visitiing Worthy. I know many people have joined since I posted, so I will re-post here. I too grew up in a christian home. My parents are officers in The Salvation Army...yeah, I'm an OB (officers brat, lol) which means they are ordained pastors. All my childhood I thought this granted me some sort of special rights or prestige and I was a very proud child. ("well, my parents are MAJORS, so I can do......" came out of my mouth a lot!) I also thought this gave me some sort of pass into heaven, so while I knew about Jesus and could tell Bible stories up and down and left and right, I was not saved. When I was 13, I was at a Salvation Army summer camp and a new girl in our cabin introduced us to "games" (yeah...games...right!) such as fortune/future telling type of stuff. In the process of these "games" one of our friends became possesed and set herself on fire. I totally freaked and all that would come out of my mouth was "JESUS!" like someone scared to death calling for their mother. Shelby was there with us and she and some other kids ran to find adult help. The adults came and we basically witnessed an exorcism and then we all had a VERY LONG talk about what had happened. We ended up in the chapel and I hung around in there after everyone left. I remember thinking to myself, "I never realized this was all so real and so powerful" then a voice said to me, "now that you know, choose.." I believe it was God telling me to make my choice and stop playing games. So I prayed and asked for forgiveness and told God I wanted to serve Him, because I knew He loved me.

I think we may be living the same life, lol! you have 3 kids, I have 3 kids......you are in a slump or playing catch-up, we are playing catch up(due to an unexpected $600 job on our van).....your hubby spends $50 on what we (as women, lol) feel is silly (yeah, like computer games, or a landscaping job for the front of the house when we're needing to pay the electricity bill), my hubby has done both examples in the (). I totally understand your vent! But seriously, I have learned, as you said, that God will provide. Your job is to share your feelings with your husband, but in a loving way not an accusing way. And remain faithful to what God has asked of you and He will provide! Hope things get better soon!

I have to agree with many others here, you DO belong because you are a part of our family...the family of God! I haven't had a chance to get to know you, but I would like the chance! You are right that you can't change or grow on your own, nobody can, that's why we fellowship together and why even if we don't understand it, we read the scriptures because God will change us and help us grow, by His power! You are loved by him and us here. :hug:

oh, no problem! So hard to know what is exactly going on (who's talking to who, etc) over the internet! lol! Take care and God bless you, sis!

Yep, SuperJew clarified for me!

I'd say that was reading too much into my post, but then I saw where you got that. Very poor wording on my part. I was talking about Paul's serious stance on submission. From what it seems, to the women, no matter who the husband is, they are to submit. Likewise, women in the church are to submit to the authority, that what we gather from the Bible, is suppose to be male. Also, if we read in 1 Timothy (i think) about how the older women are to treat the younger women and the olde rmen are to treat the younger men, we can learn that in the mentoring situation from the question, it'd be stupid to have a women mentor a man or a man mentor a woman (unless of course that woman is the wife of that man). Anyway, back to clarifying, I do not believe the scriptures tell women to submit to all men. I believe women are to submit to their husbands, and if there is no husband, then within a church setting they should submit to their pastor. Ok, thanks for clarifying! Well, aren't all believers told to submit to authority? (governement, church, etc) Ultimately God's authority? I think that when the Bible is speaking in specific terms of men and women it is talking about the marriage relationship.

I, for one, have never believed this. Submission, seems to be, is based upon relationships. My wife has a relationship with me, and with our pastor. In these situations, submission applies. But she does not have a relationship with our male neighbor next door. Submission does not apply here. Is that what you meant? You made my point for me.

1) Cannot hold authority over men 2) Can speak to the congregation as long as the senior pastor gives them that right. What if a man needs a woman in authority over him ? Let's face it, there are some VERY mature women and some VERY immature men. Then how do we determine who's where in their walk ? When would the "switch over" take place ? What about Children ? A woman can instruct & be in authority over him until what ? 18 years old and then on his 18th birthday he suddenly is in authority over his teacher & mentor ? Shouldn't we leave that up to God and just submit to Him by submitting to whomever HE puts in authority over us ? Thoughts ? God bless, Bob The problem with this is that it denies all Biblical teachings and concepts. Paul was so adament about women submitting to men that he even wrote a passage about how wives should submit to their lost husbands. Thus, Paul seems to believe that submission is more important. Likewise, why would a woman need to lead a man on a one on one basis like you're describing? I would not advise a woman to lead a man or a man to lead a woman in a one on one situation because it would inevitably lead to trouble. Also, to presuppos that God would call a woman to lead a man is again to go against what we've learned from the scriptures. We can say, "Oh but God can do whatever He wants." Yes, He can, however this doesn't mean He will. If God wanted to He could rid us of all sin at this moment and take everyone to Heaven. He has the power to do that. However the question is, will He? The obvious answer from someone who studies scripture is "no". Likewise, can God call a woman to lead men in a church setting? Absolutely. The quesiton is, "will He?" The obvious answer from scripture is a resounding no. I think the problem here is you are saying the scriptures are telling women to submit to all men. I don't think that is the case. I think that yes, Paul was very adadment about women submitting to their husbands, but not all men.

1) Cannot hold authority over men 2) Can speak to the congregation as long as the senior pastor gives them that right. What if a man needs a woman in authority over him ? Let's face it, there are some VERY mature women and some VERY immature men. Then how do we determine who's where in their walk ? When would the "switch over" take place ? What about Children ? A woman can instruct & be in authority over him until what ? 18 years old and then on his 18th birthday he suddenly is in authority over his teacher & mentor ? Shouldn't we leave that up to God and just submit to Him by submitting to whomever HE puts in authority over us ? Thoughts ? God bless, Bob Bob, good questions. You are right, hmmmm? Personally, I think that in all we do, we need to pray and seek God earnestly rather than rely on mens (generic term, not referring to males, lol) opinions. Again, as I have said before, He will guide and lead us. In my devotion time this morning I was reading 1 Timothy 4 and thought of this thread (particularly verses 1-4) Worth a read anyway! Also, personally if my family (as in my husband, me and children) had a choice of being pastored by a single woman who was a Godly woman and firm in faith and truth or a man who had questionable doctrines, a shady lifestyle (going to clubs partying, etc) we would choose the woman.

In our churches case, Shelby, single women officers are still under authority (DC's, THQ's, etc) so we are still within Biblical guidelines. I was just saying I agreed with what the woman missionary did, letting the local men who rose up from her ministry to pastor their congregation in their community. Also, I think the explanation of the passage establishing submission of women to their husbands authority is a more accurate take on that passage.

my screen name is my intials of my real names. (first, 2 middle, maiden and married) Katie is derived from Katherine (my real name is Katie, though) which means "pure one" and while I am not "pure" (I have after all sinned) I am forgiven and made pure. I try my best to live up to my name, and when I make mistakes, I know I will be forgiven! When we named our kids we took into account the meaning of their names too.

This thread is not about PREACHING it is about PASTORING. If I might give an example. Elisabeth Elliot went to the Amazon jungle after her husband had been murdered and PREACHED to the tribes the gospel of Jesus Christ. When a man arose from the tribes HE became the PASTOR and Elisabeth herself submitted to his authority, never once looking to exercise authortity over any man of the tribe. Truly a godly woman. LT Actually, Larry, I do agree with what this missionary woman did, and I would probably do the same. This too, I think you have the right application of the passage here. Edited to Add: yes, as I said before I do preach in my church, but under the authority of 1. God and 2. the senior pastor (who happens to be a man) and other leaders in the church and my husbands approval.

God-man, I just want to say that I am not angry or hurt by anyone in this discussion. I understand your position, but I too respectfully disagree. That doesn't mean that you are no longer my brother in Christ. If I did something wrong, please let me know because I did not want to upset others or hurt them. I was just trying to share and encourage others in discussing this in a pleasing way (pleasing to God, not to me, lol!) I hope I have not hurt you! I respect your position even if I do not hold that same position. :hug: Are we ok?

I saw part of the program last night. I watched because I was interested in the piece on "are you raising a criminal". I feel for that poor family in that segment. I don't feel like Dr. Phil gave them actual concrete advice to take home with them (at least what they aired, he may have spent more time with them off air, I don't know) I tend to be a huge skeptic when it comes to "counslers" or "therapists" especially those who are secular. But most of what I saw last night I thought was pretty sage advice.