Jorge S

It looks depredation was allowed after the Flood but not at the Fall. Gen 9:3-6 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herb. But you shall not eat of flesh with the life in it, or the blood of it. and surely the blood of your lives will I require. At the hand of every animal will I require it, and at the hand of man. At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood shall be shed by man; for He made man in the image of God.

And if you are a YEC you have to believe that every single measurement and tool that we have used and continue to use on a dialy basis to know our surroundings is wrong. Not a little bit wrong, but so wrong that the only explanation is that God has deceived us. Which is more likely to be incorrect, the way we interpret the bible, or the way we see the world around us, with regard to how old it is? Take it where it leads you, brother. Don't back off! Problem: Radiometry asigns grossly disproportionate ages to a young universe. Fact: God cannot deceive us. Fact: The Bible consistently speaks of a young world. Question: What can be wrong? Disclaimer: It's hard to shift well-established paradigms. Inspirational Quotes: Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 1Pe 2:1-3 Therefore laying aside all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envyings, and all evil speakings, desire the sincere milk of the Word, as newborn babes, so that you may grow by it; if truly you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Very articulate post, Arvy. I agree with you 100%. Thanks and Welcome.

Interesting conclusion. But knowing the final outcome does not necessarily mean 'loading the dice' for it would incur a violation of God's Own Standards. You see yourself as irreversibly condemned before Final Judgement and I wonder why?

God has given everybody a chance of Salvation through Jesus and each one of us has a decision to make before time runs out. Why playing mindgames with God when you can avoid becoming a casualty? He is the One who judges, He is the One who saves, and He has given you the opportunity. Let Him be God... for your own sake!

Hi, brother. Every sentence of your post is so controversial that we could argue and counter-argue for longer than the yet-to-be-proven evolutionary timeline has in offer. And that is really a very long time! It's then probably best to start with the conclusion: if Genesis is entirely symbolic you and me are wasting our precious lives by being Christians. Genesis had to be incomplete for reasons more valid than communication handicaps. It's a book that condenses around 1600 years of early human history - and a peculiar history at that! because it concentrates on the announcement and implementation of God's redemptive plan. Therefore it contains what God saw appropriate to reveal, starting with His Authorship of the world and the reasons why humans lost its former glory. You would have had to be the 'inspirer' of the writter yourself in order to know those things John did not have words to express. Interestingly, though, Revelation is a Book that draws all its symbolism from the OT books, starting with Genesis, while Genesis does not have any symbolic referent elsewhere for it is in itself a statement of facts from which everything derives. Genesis teaches that language was created by God. His Spirit is said to have inspired the Bible writers. With Moses, in particular, there was a bigger deference: Exodus 33:11 "And Jehovah would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Sometimes in the presence of witnesses: Exodus 19:9 "And Jehovah said to Moses, Lo, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever." Witnesses that were being covenantally bound to His Word: Exodus 24:3-4 ...And all the people answered with one voice and said, All the words which Jehovah has said, we will do. And Moses wrote all the Words of Jehovah,

Do you consider Genesis an allegory as a whole or only certain portions thereof?

Judge for yourself at the end of this post. Creationism proper was born in the XIX century as a scientific reaction against the hegemony of evolutionary thought in science. Although it is mostly associated with Christianity the term encompass other beliefs where divine involvement is claimed. That's why I also dislike the term Intelligent Design. The '6-day' prefix would certainly make it a synonym of Christian creationism but some non-literal views could be accommodated as well. My views on origins were shaped by the Word of God at a time I didn't even know there was something called creationism in science. Therefore I see myself as an apologetic (1Peter 3:15) rather than a creationist. I read both creationist and evolutionistic literature and derive conclusions from whatever facts and mechanisms are more scientific than philosophic in both camps. For the Israelites. It was a literal tree. Adam's inmortality was not innate but covenantal. The Bible does not specify what happened with the Garden. God may have destroyed it anytime but most probably not immediatly (since cherubs were guarding its entrance.) After the catastrophe of the Flood no one can be sure where it was placed.

And the clues are? By the way, I'm not a '6-day creationist' but a Bible literalist.

... Any type of an honest exegetical hermeneutic would reveal that there are at least questions regarding the intention and meaning of the Genesis accounts of Creation. And it's spelled, "mystery". Please, enlighten me with the exegesis that supports the allegorization of Genesis.

That's the problem with theistic evolution: It doesn't know where to fit Genesis within its accepted speculation about origins. The easiest shortcut? Allegorize Genesis! And get the best of both worlds at once: Christian Salvation and scientific gratification. The supernatural intervention you're speaking of is more than just intervention - a term that implies interference with an ongoing process. God created the universe and all its inhabitants out of nothing in the span of six solar days. He has neither surrendered His Authorship and continuous Rulership of Creation to anything else than His Own Will and Purpose. Nothing about His handling of Creation has ever stopped. You employed a speculative 'could' (in bold above.) I think the issue was more practical than your purported biological superiority. Mixing carried the dangers of religious contamination and extermination of the culture from which the Messiah would come.

Ours. There's no fault in God. Satan works on appearances to make us depart from God's Eternal and Truthful Word. Even a casual reader would ascertain that by all intents of context, use of language and confirmation in later revelation the account of Genesis consistently means what it plainly says. You may believe it or not but you cannot claim the Bible is equivocal about it. Why some Christians do not trust the Holy Spirit on this revelation is a mistery to me.

Thanks for that question. It's been troubling me since I started participating in Christian Boards 3 years ago. I thought that once we overcame the question of WHO the issue of HOW would gravitationally fall in place unhindered. But it's not the case. I find instead Christians using the same arguments I used as a Marxist before my conversion. The answer is in Mat 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect.

I read some time ago a rebuttal to that example. As far as I can remember the issue relies on differentiating order from specified complexity. Crystals represent order -low information sequences that yield repetitive, symmetrical, non-random patterns. As the water of your snowflakes adopts a lower energy state by low temperature, its molecules organize according to physical laws and each fragment of the whole is still the same thing. The complex molecules of life (DNA, proteins) represent high information systems organized in random patterns that yield specific instructions and cannot create themselves purely from physical laws because its constituents do not polymerize spontaneously. When broken, both the information and function are lost and the fragments are not a representation of the whole. What!?

amen but what's really saddening are those who cliam to honor Christ by mixing Biblical truth with human religious speculations, mis-labelled "science" (which sounds impressive, and allows them to comfortably fit in with the world system, but is a false claim) Amen to both.

yes. although complete in its own right the Bible is still limited in that it can only paint a PARTIAL picture of Gods Glory. the Spirit can then use the Bible as a FRAMEWORK to attach the muscles that complete the body of faith. the "authorities" want to arrange the bones of the Bible so that the muscles they provide will move you along THEIR path. darwinism is more concerned with the texture of the ground in general, not just the bit we are walking on, not worrying about the path or destination at all. The Holy Spirit is God and inspired the Bible writers. He cannot testify against Himself, henceforth, whatever contradicts the Word of God does not come from God.

how did we go from secular education credentials (which are essentially irrelevant to God, the 12 apostles were all uneducated nobodies) to spiritual authority? the pope tells people what the Bible really says, people listen to him because of his authority to speak in this matter. your guy ALSO tells people what the Bible really says, and at least HE thinks people will listen to him more credulously if he claims a certain authority. it is the parallel USE of the claimed authority rather than the specific authority claimed, falsely in your guys case for sure at least. I thought we were to have the Bible itself as the rule of faith: 1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spriritual things with spiritual. Col 3:16 Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Act 17:11 And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so.

Rocks and trees do not speak by themselves. How about revealed truth versus human speculation?

'Certain amount of supernatural activity' or the unique power of a Supernatural Being? If suspending the ordinary course of nature in the resurrection of Jesus was a miracle why the creation of nature itself out of nothing does not qualify as such? The lack of human witnesses to the creation event has a unique repercusion: we don't have a way of disproving His report. Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding! Isa 29:16 ...; for shall the work say of him who made it, He did not make me? Or shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, He had no understanding? Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?

Same rhetoric, no matter how many other million times you'll have to state it. It only shows your particular interpretation which is biased towards evolution. If I ask you why should Genesis be taken as an allegory you will inevitably call upon the testimony of science. The Bible then does not mean what it says or what it plainly states can be safely disregarded. I do agree with you that Genesis 1 and 2 are about the Creating Power of God, so greatly depicted that notions about billions of years of 'trial and error' to bring us this far can be swept away without remorse. Great subject for a Bible Study. Let's call it something like The Revealed Knowledge of God in an Era of Scientific Skepticism. Subtitle: A Biblical Guide for 21st Century Christians. Source Material: The Bible. Hints: Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. 2Ti 3:16: All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, ... Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades; but the Word of our God shall stand forever. Psa 119:160 Your Word is true from the beginning; and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. Pro 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His Words, lest He reprove you and you be found a liar. Pro 21:30 There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against Jehovah. Jer 8:9 The wise are ashamed, they are terrified, and are captured. Lo, they have turned away from the Word of Jehovah; and what wisdom is in them?

Killing has a broader sense than murdering and deals with the act of terminating someone's life in whatever circumstances. Only God, the Giver of Life, can take it back. Compare the commandment you quoted with Gen 9:4-6. Same with Creation. Both are miraculous events which, by definition, resist naturalistic explanations. Everything in the Bible is there for a purpose. Ask yourself why did God have to give details about a timeframe, duration of days and an odd sequential order? Gen 1:1 could have sufficed as a general statement of His Authorship of the universe.

By the way, they were 8 individuals (Gen 6:10, 7:7)

Those advances confirmed the exegetical principle that 'Scripture interprets Scripture', something that the Bible claims for itself all along. Wouldn't you agree that on issues that the Bible emphatically asserts the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the text regardless of what we think we know?

Yup, thats where we were goind next, how all the variation we see in people arose and dispersed in a blink of an eye from a 100% homogenous ancester. Instead of a molecular clock, we'd be talking about a molecular stop watch. All the 'variation we see in people' amounts 10% by recent reports and we're still the same biological species. Does a few millennia look like a blink of an eye? Well, I guess it must feel so if we consider previous reports of a 1% genomic difference (!?) between us and chimps after millions of years of evolution.

God made us in His Image and after His Likeness. That's the real gift. Science is rather a tool we use by exercising our God-given ability to reason in the pursue of our God-given mandate to subdue the earth. (Gen 1:26-28) Science is not an independent entity of reality and data alone can tell us nothing. The Bible is the revealed Word of God and suits all people everywhere anytime, from its first instalment to all eternity. If it taught one thing to some and something totally different to others then it wouldn't be the inerrant Word from an omniscient and eternal God. As a Christian I find it impossible to believe that God instructed Moses to write down a deceptive account of Creation that would be discredited by men later in history. Therefore, dismissing a literal belief in what the Bible has to say about Creation can only come from a literal belief in something else, e.g. the evolutionary model proposed by current scientific standings. Is it really justified?