thechild

you ignore the signs too?

start at the beginning and read it all the way through. i like the king james as well because of the numbering system with strongs. once through the king james, then read it again in another version that is a little easier to read. i like the modern language bible - the new berkeley version. they all have their pros and cons. the point is to be able to use the helps out there and they are mostly based on the king james. the king james is the most beautiful in some places, and the most corrupt in others. god can speak to you through it. definitely avoid paraphrases like the living bible or good news for modern man. they are not even translations, so they are not even close to being scripture.

i knew we would find some common ground.

thats a good thing, because i dont preach to people unless the lord directs me.

i strive to be a living testament. every creature i encounter gets loved. and i dont believe preaching the gospel is all about saying the sinners prayer with someone. i wouldnt do that to someone unless god told me to. but guess what? i suspect that this passage is an addition to the text. it is not that congruent with the rest of it. and it is not found in the majority of the most reliable manuscripts. it makes a perfect example, though of picking and choosing fromt he scriptures. i went years hearing that verse and i had to eventually, when i got smart and decided to read the bible myself instead of allow others to tell me what they want, read the rest of that passage on my own. it is still ignored. interestingly, in some form or fashion, i have fulfilled all of those signs.

ovedya quote "As far as your baited questions regarding abortion and setting oneself on fire, there is no need to respond. These are simply non-issues." they were obviously rhetorical questions to make a point, not to be answered. this is a common use of the english language, which you should know, and i believe you do. ovedya quote ""And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)" see, you know exactly what i am talking about. what is the flesh? i will give you a hint - it is a tree. you seem to misunderstand the flesh and its purpose. i am taking up a study in light of your insistance that the body and the flesh are two different things. col 1 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; paul says a mouthful here. he supports what i have been saying, that all things were created by god and for god. and there is that phrase, "in the body of his flesh" which is, using the greek, "in the soma of his sarx." if the rest of it is translated correctly, then this would indicate the body is part of the flesh, not the other way around. but i want to know more. in the presence of two or more witnesses, a thing is established. col 2 4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: so we have paul using the word sarx to describe not being bodily present with those to whom he is writing. certainly he is not talking about his lusts being away from them? and then in verse 11, it is the sins of the flesh that are cut off, not the flesh itself. hardly a second witness, being the same author inthe same letter, but certainly a continuity can be derived. thunderstorm. i must resume this later.

It is not a judgment. In the language that I speak, English, to say that something is a "setup" is to say that something was done with intent to deceive. What your sentence said to me was basically, "God arranged this situation in order for man to fall. To me that is heresy, and it contradicts the divine characteristics which the Bible attributes to God. you are welcome to whatever opinion you like. god deceives no one. i am a trapper. i know how to set a trap and what it takes to snare some animal. deception is not always necessary. it depends on the animal. in fact, it is true that curiousity killed the cat. even so it is more stealth than deception that is called for. a setup, to me , is a situation that is sure to be entered into knowing the characteristics of the animal being sought. if you put a three year old in a kitchen with no locks on the cabinets, you have set that child up to take your pots and pans out. no deception there. the trees in the middle of the garden were a set up. they were sure to be noticed as adam and eve were tree fruit eaters. they were in the middle of the place where they dwelt. that the heck would you call it? actually, the biggest question about the whole garden scenario is, why didnt they eat of the tree of life? you see, that was the second mistake eve made in talking to the serpent. she said she wasnt supposed to eat from the tree in the midst of the garden - there were two.

everyone who calls themself a christian puts utmost weight on the great commision. oh, if they would only take jesus' other words with the same seriousness! mark 16 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.... see 'em all the time.

good luck with that.

if you believe your flesh is so evil, why dont you dowse your body with gasoline and self-emoliate like those buddhist monks do? it is, of course, because you dont really believe that. all of creation is wonderously made and that includes your body. when you look at a newborn baby, do you see pure evil? that child is nothing but flesh. with an attitude like that, abortion would be seen as a godsend! no, of course not. you are taking what the bible is saying out of context. it is clear that it is the lusts of the flesh that are counter to the spirit. these things warring in our members are a battle for control. we do not war against flesh and blood, but against principalities(who is in control) and powers that, if we let the flesh take control, it will lead us to a conclusion of death, but if we give the spirit control, it will lead to a conclusion of life. god has declared the end from the beginning. he gave man free will and man said, by his choices, that he wanted to be like god and know both good and evil(not a bad choice either - a child wanting to be like his father). god simply gave him the desires of his heart. but this set up another dilemma. for before, he had only known the goodness of god and his perfect creation. but now he had before him a continual choice to make. this choice requires judgement and self control. the good choices are always the hard ones. you know that. god, in his goodness, has given us the benefit of his judgement and has told us to obey those judgements for a good outcome. but the flesh says,"god is not really looking out for you. the things he says to do are too hard and will harm you." cain found out the hard way, even after being told and warned: Genesis 4:6-8 (New International Version) 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." 8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." [a] And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. the flesh won out and caused cain to miss the mark. he sinned. but then, god knew he would, didnt he?

ovedya quote "In your answer you appear to be faulting God for placing the two trees in the midst of the garden. You worte that the two trees were "a setup," as if God intentionally was trying to trick Adam and Eve into eating the wrong tree. Is that your argument?" i still dont see how you can make judgements out of descriptions. descriptions are non-biased. if you call pointing a finger at god and saying he created this whole thing finding fault, then so be it. god is not impotent, he is never surprised, and he is accomplishing his purpose with his creation regardless of how people choose to look at it. he knew exactly what adam and eve would do. to think otherwise would be extreme heresy. everything god does is intentional.

i hear you loud and clear, dave. that carrot is the biggest scam to come down the pike since the release of barabbas. i have many details, but i will spell out the matter. you are never intended to draw a dime of that money. all mechanisms are in place so that if you do what you need to to reach the age of "entitlement" with a full pension, you will probably drop dead before that, or soon after. and if, lord help us, our health fails before that and we are disabled or dying, death alone is the only sure means of obtaining a payment, a one time death benefit to a spouse of around $300. good deal for SS. bad deal for the family. i tell you of a surety, if you eat a standard american diet, see a doctor regularly and get the recommended tests and meds, and have any dental metals in your mouth, you are worrying in vain. its all taken care of for you. have a nice day.

Exactly! what return? jesus said he would never leave us nor forsake us. he is not gone. yes i know what you mean, but you are wrong. sorry.

Matthew 7 1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Luke 6 20And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. 21Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh. 22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. 23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. 24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. 25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. 26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. 27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. 39And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 41And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. judgement is very important to learn. it is essential, in fact. but what is this judgement for? it is for us to see ourselves clearly first. is this easy to do? no, it clearly is not or the subject would not merit so much attention by the lord jesus. the key is this last statement in john, but you must answer the question, what is righteous judgement? obviously not according to what is easily perceptible. that would be, at best, presumptuous, at worst, some sort of personality disorder or psychosis. and example of righteous judgement was when jesus told peter that he would deny him. all righteous judgement is true. thank you, robert, for a great subject matter and one of extreme importance to all of our walks.

no, robert, i dont suppose you are enjoying this. you sit there forgiven of god knows what and heaven bound and pronounce judgements on me. that has to gnaw on a person somewhere. the answer to your question is easy. you lay down your net and walk away from your boat and follow him. its just that easy.

You mean sell all you have and follow Christ as the Lord told the rich young ruler? How would one do that today? Thanks, Robert well, robert, i really dont know how a person would go about doing that. i havent held a paying job for the the past 6 years and i dont own anything. i am blessed, if you can call it that, with a wife who pays for what is here and that is her choice because i guess she doesnt want to live a meager existence. i would just as soon live off the land, but that is not available any more. i did that for a while in alaska, but that went the way of many better things i have known in my 47 years. i no longer have the stomach for the work i once did and i have no desire to do work that i know will harm myself, my health, or other people and guess what? there isnt much out there. i am a natural healer and wont go near a doctor. in fact, i could be perfectly fine as homeless. i need no provisions that the lord does not provide. i dont need a shelter - it is much healthier not to be in one. i eat my food raw so i dont need fire. i drink distilled water so that is a burden, but i dont have to drink distilled water and i wont drink anything else but water, as a rule. i can make my own medicine, know the use of herbs, dont like alcohol or soap or perfume. i love to be in the sun and i like to be active. maybe i should just take a walk like forrest gump and see if anyone tags along? these times are not conducive to the spiritual life. to abandon it all seems like insanity to most people. it makes perfect sense to me. btw, jesus is the truth and he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. everything he said has been in application since he spoke it. i have had too many people tell me too many lies about what the bible says. god is able to speak to me through his word just fine and it is quite clear to me what it says, and what it does not say. in fact, i know it backwards and forwards.

robert h quote "A person who does not believe the gospel of grace cannot be saved no matter how many good works they do." i am certainly glad that statement cannot be found in the scriptures. it is not only patently not true, but just the opposite is true. in this world, good works are a sign of faith. not the ones for show, of course, because they have their reward built in. not the ones you do for friends and relatives because any good pagan can do that. the message of jesus was not about a belief system. in fact, he never told the jews they were wrong, never advocated abolishing the law of moses, never once condemed anyone for their religion or culture. in fact, he said to do what the pharisees and teachers of the law said to do, but not to do as they do. he observed the sabbath on the sabbath and the feasts as well. and he said many other things to do, all designed to bring about true change. that is the essence of repentence - change. and he left us with so very few of his words. how very precious they are. and as he left he said, "if you love me, obey my commandments." when he started his ministry, the lord spoke from on high saying this is my beloved son, listen to him. i dont know what kind of spell people are under to get them to profess the lord jesus christ and completely ignore him at the same time. perhaps you can be the one to clear that up for me. but if so, i hope it is in your own words. i have heard all the others since a child.

i see this is an old topic, but i would like to help clarify something, and that is the purpose of gifts. they may or may not be there in any given situation because they are for building up faith. as soon as that level of faith is established, the gifts are no longer needed and will go away. the emphasis is never on the gifts, but on the person and their spiritual condition. just another way man looks at the outward appearance and not on the heart where the focus belongs.

these things are not necessary to be love. 1 Corinthians 13 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

i find that an inescapable conclusion. at least long enough to go through the process. following jesus and picking up your cross is definitely commitment to the point of death. i would venture to say not one christian would deny that if they were presented with the so-called mark of the beast, they would choose death over that. yet there are already marks and numbers that if you dont have them, you cant buy or sell. people think that if beheading is not the alternative that it is not the mark of the beast. these same people cant understand how esau could trade his birthright for a bowel of pottage. how ironic. matthew 10 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. here is the way to have eternal life matthew 25 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. and here mark 10 23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. 28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. and here luke 10 25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. but what you really want to know is that you have eternal life. and rather than repent, you would find fault with me. all i have done is repeated what our lord has said. john 12 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. 27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. and i have also offered up on this site the revealing of the mystery of christ and how eternal life actually comes about. but the ones who run this board took it away and told me never to post it here again and they called the servant of god who wrote it a blasphemer. i was not surprised: john 10 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one. 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

i think there is no compromise. you either give up your soul or you give up all the world. matthew 19 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. how many here would sell all that they have and give it away? what the rich in this world do is nothing because it does not effect their riches. the widows mite, however, was her entire living for the forseeable future. what do people do to keep their health insurance? their retirement? their life savings? their house? there is not a homeowner in the states that is not rich by the worlds standards. what have people worked all their lives for? security? that is not the way to eternal life. that is the way of this life. one must be indebted and a slave in order to own a car or have a place to live. that is what people work for these days, not eternal life.

my first choice would be genesis Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: the second would be the revelation of our lord jesus christ. third would be job fourth would be psalms fifth isaiah sixth jeremiah seventh exodus hopefully i have retained enough of the words of jesus and the proverbs to fill in the blanks tough question

christianity is not god. acts 5 29Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. 33When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. 34Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

blindseeker, thank you for saying what my lack of patience would not allow.