undone

Shouldn't we just look at Jesus to see a living example of holiness?

In the parable, the man who went to Hell had died and was sent to Hell for his sin. This is different from dreams, visions and being transported somewhere and back (see Ezekiel 40). Okay, I see what you mean. And the same could be true for Paul, John, and other OT prophets. I've heard other NDE testimonies where people died, went to Hell, were visited by Jesus, had a nice chat with Him, and came back to life and lived to warn others. That isn't necessarily the case with this guy. If I read it right, he died, was a Christian, was told to forget it, shown and experienced Hell, and told to come back to tell others. Well, like I said, you can't argue with the results. Welcome to the family Mike!

Do we not believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Why would He all the sudden change His mind and decide to allow people to come back from Hell to warn others when that goes against what He taught in Luke 16:19-31? I want to believe this story...but I can't get past this scripture. And of the NDE reports I've heard and read, they are not consistent. Some may have somethings similar, but it's interesting to see the vast differences in these stories.

Man!!! I'm trying to find the scripture that says that because we are washed by the blood of the Lamb, we are seen by the Father to be as Holy as Christ. Can anyone help point me in the right direction? I think it's very relevant to this question.

Shalom Natt, This woman is off the deep end and she doesn't know (or believe) her Bible. I'd ask her not to pray for your family. Who knows WHAT she's praying!! If you belong to Jesus, there is no curse over you, for Jesus has broken ALL curses when you gave your life to Him. Do not allow anyone to lay that curse bondage lie on you! You and Jesus are fine this lady is a little twisted in her theology. deliverance ministries, curses...........................don't let any one take away your joy and peace with that lie. There is a difference between being sifted & tested and possessed & cursed. One is allowed by God, the other is a lie taught by men. If you are in Christ, he will answer any prayer...........the Holy and un-holy can't reside in the same person. Christ is the ONLY mediator we need. Scarlet, I am like you, but I can't explain what happened to my sister in the previous post any other way. Maybe what she experienced wasn't a curse perse. And I don't think she was out of her mind. If you research it, you will find alot of testamonies out there of Christian people being tormented and delivered. I can't simply write them all off simply because I haven't experienced it myself first hand. But yes, Jesus is the answer. In my research for my sister, I saw where someone had said, "You alway hear it said that Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. But what you need to realize is that it's the truth YOU KNOW that sets you free." Apparently, my sister didn't know, at the time, that her involvement with the occult in her previous years had opened the door to torment. It wasn't until she was able to dispel it with the truth that she was truly free. And as scripture says, "Whom Jesus frees is free indeed." There is a difference between forgiveness from sin, and freedom from curses. This was displayed when David sinned with Bathsheba and killed her husband. God forgave David but he was under a curse. This was seen carried out with the sins of his sons and grandsons. I know, I know, Jesus paid it all and I truly believe that. But if you don't realize, accept, and live in the fullness of what that means, then you stand the chance of being decieved. (I'm not necessarily speaking to you personally). I wouldn't even be writing this if I hadn't seen it happen to my sister.

As far as Christians being tormented by demons...What I can tell you is that for several years my sister (a born again, tongue speaking believer) felt she was tormented (raped) by a demon every night. She couldn't sleep. She would drive around all night to avoid the experience. Awful. She tried everything at her "spirit filled" church. Nothing ever worked. I tried to research different ideas for her and one thing that came up was whether or not she had been involved in the occult. She had! This apparently opened the door to this torment. She has since dealt with this and is living peacefully. I'm not a big believer in these things in the modern day church. But she is a living testament to it's reality.

Shalom Undone, No, that would not be my point at all, in fact, I never even thought anything of the sort! My point is, G-d's Word is clear, we are to BE (active) holy, as He is holy. There are no excuses or justifications for willful sin or not actively walking after Jesus in holiness. Would you agree that the only way to truly walk in holiness is to yeild to the Holy Spirit and allow Jesus to live His life through you? And that we are all on a journey of learning to yeild to the Spirit and deny the flesh. And that we are living under grace to allow us the ability to learn, grow, and yeild. I'm not advocating a license to sin, but a covering of my sin to allow me to grow and experience Christ and His will for our lives. (This is just a brief summary of this thought. There are whole books written on this subject) Edit: "covering" is a bad word choice. Propitiation is the NT word.

Vickilynn, Would your point be that the modern day Church is a bit guilty of watering down the message? As a result, producing false-converts and overall weak Christians? I don't want to read anything into what you are saying.

So is this verse saying that everyone is curses, until they are redeemed by the blood of Jesus? Do you mean to say cursed? not curses? Yes cursed. Curses! Foiled by my stupid spelling. . . 1 Corinthians 16:21-23 (New International Version) 21 I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand. 22 If anyone does not love the Lord

Why do we give our testimonies period, if the Law and the Prophets are enough? OK, let's think about this. Jesus was speaking to Jews who had faith in the Law and the Prophets, not the Gentiles who had no belief of any kind in YHWH. Giving our testimonies of how we came to know Christ is one thing. Saying you died, went to Hell and came back with the mission of telling others about it to persuade them into belief seems to go against what Jesus is saying here. On the other hand, didn't Mike say this was one of the reasons he chose to ask Christ into his life? Didn't Paul say that there are some who preach Christ for financial gain but at least they preach Christ. Mike was basically convicted of the reality of his sin and caused to place salvation as an utmost priority. I guess you can't argue with the results. I dunno...

So is this verse saying that everyone is curses, until they are redeemed by the blood of Jesus? Do you mean to say cursed? not curses? Yes cursed. Curses! Foiled by my stupid spelling. . . 1 Corinthians 16:21-23 (New International Version) 21I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand. 22If anyone does not love the Lord

There has never been even a single recorded instance of anyone passing HIV to another individual by casual contact. There has never been a single instance of children passing it between themselves through any type of play. So its not selfish on the part of the foster parents, its simply ignorance on the part of others and the park owners. There was no reason at all for the child's foster parents to tell anyone other than the child's doctor that the child was HIV positive, so they really just brought this on themselves. I once had a boss that made me fire someone because she suspected they had HIV. It was one of the saddest things I ever did. It was one of the things that led me to hate being led around by the lure of money. I was a manager making some pretty good money.

So is this verse saying that everyone is curses, until they are redeemed by the blood of Jesus? Do you mean to say cursed? not curses?

Mike, Check out this website for some awesome witnessing tools and techniques: www.wayofthemaster.com

Ayin, I just posted a scripture that goes AGAINST it. Luke 16:19-31

I've often wondered, actually hoped, NDE's could be verified and used as evidence of supernatural experiences. But it seems they go against scripture.

Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' -------------------------------- Why would God all the sudden decide that people will listen to this guy? It seems Jesus has already addressed this issue.

Revelation My pastor taught a one week bible study series on Revelation. Day 5 came and we hadn't got past the letters to the churches. At the end of the class he asked if there were any questions and naturally, everyone in the class had a puzzled look on their face and asked, "what about the rest of the book?" He replied,"Noooo, tooooo controversial". I thought, Huh!?! Okaaaay! I guess.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of others throughout the world who would support ideas like this. It's a shame that I'm not surprised. Some folks didn't learn anything from Nazi-ism.

Well, OK, undone, what did you expect, sweetie? Was there a chance you were going to take your children to see the movie? I don't even watch the commercials. You're right as usual bib?

Blessings Undone from New Orleans, About the best we can do is follow our hearts. I have prayed on many occassions on the same concerns you have. The thing I have come to learn is , We need this experience with the world just as badly as the person who may be waiting for us later. All of life is a learning experience and we need to take it all in. God did not send us hear to be together and share our hearts and minds simply by coincidence. We are all here for varied reasons , but nevertheless , all hear to learn about God and HIS people. The more I come in contact with God's people, the more more I learn more about myself. I believe if God wanted me elsewhere, I would have already been there. Also, not everyone is needed to "preach to the congregations" as many of us are needed to work with the individuals who are still confused and have many other questions about what the preachers are saying. It can be a bit much for one who is just beginning to learn and find Jesus. And those of us here and there are much needed and necessary to be examples of what True Christians are to be like . A lady where I work told me yesterday that she had been noticing me around and she noted that I always seem to be smiling and happy. She then said that she felt she could talk with me because I seemed easy to talk with and she knew I was a Christian. Oddly, that same week, I was beginning to wonder if I was having any affect on anyone since I doubted my own self at times. Why and how would God need me to work with anyone when I questioned my own reverence/undrestanding of HIM. The new friend was trying to find her own way to God and desperately needed positive support that God was there for her and wondered if anyone really cared for her well-being?? I smiled and simply asked her if she thought that I was there with her by accident?? She agreed and noted that there was no way that I approached her at the exact time that she was doubting God and her need to speak with someone that represented HIM> I have had this same situation happen with me approx. 40 times in my recent years. For me and my walk, this is suffient evidence for me that this is what God is using my life for. And I'm not hesitant to share my "cross" with anyone who may have the need to know if I feel it necessary, as I believe I am a miracle in the making directly from God. Continue to walk and pray with God and listen to the others out there that are telling you what you need to hear. People like me or the ones that are asking for your help and guidance. These are the ones that will direct you to your calling. But I know that I know that it all begins here on this and other Christian forums. In HIS own time. Blessings Cajunboy Well said Cajuboy...well said.

On the other hand, it can go the other way. People can be overly judgmental of their church leaders and put them under a microscope and in a fish bowl.

It's always been my understanding that a deacons job is to take away some of the work load of the pastor. Visitations, feild complaints, ....etc. I've never been under the impression that they should play the role of 'holy spirit'. It's one thing to express concern as why they haven't seen you in a while. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's important to manage the church body to show you care that they're gone. But to try a pass a guilt trip off on someone is just plain wrong. I think guys like this are on a self righteous power trip and need to climb off their high horse. My teenage daughter was helping with VBS this summer, and one them asked her if she was going to camp. She said no she couldn't that she had plans. He tried to make her feel bad by saying, "yeah, I had plans to but I felt God was more important". She left VBS in tears. Truth is, she's going to Washington DC for a Baptist Youth Leadership Conference. The guy was being a short sighted, insensitive jerk. MY KID WAS THE ONLY HIGH SCHOOL AGED KID SERVING AT VBS! Some people...

I didn't mean to rain on the parade. I think it's true that this should be judged on a case by case basis. I suppose I wish we could see more positive results with non-believers. Anyone who has paid much attention to many of my recent posts can probably tell that this is the case. It's probably selfish of me to expect results like this. I know, I know, we're planting seeds and such. I think I'm still suffering the after effects of realizing that creation science does not have all the answers hammered down in a irrefutable way like I once thought. I still believe and that's just the point....it's all about faith...period.