One Way

Kay, The GOOD: You are a loving mother who is concerned about your son. Your son knows what is right and what is wrong. The BAD: Your son is at a very impressionable age. Unfortunately, public schools encourage homosexuality. They encourage sexual experimentation. The cards are stacked against God's values in the public school arena. Who your son decides "to run with" in school will also make a big difference. If he plays sports he is more likely to run around with "straight" friends. If he is somewhat of a social outcast then the odds of him experimenting further with homosexuality are greatly increased. Homosexuality is sin, just like all sin, albeit more grave. Therefore, the answer is Jesus. Where does he stand with the Lord? Has he made your[ Lord his Lord? Is he truly born-again? I think the term "Christian homosexual" is an oxymoron, although I don't know the end from the beginning as God does. Right now I would just be on my knees praying and fasting. Have others that you know at church also make an effort to be diligent in praying for him. Ultimately, he will have to make a choice. I agree that there is a spiritual dimension to this, but it doesn't end there. His own flesh.. that is, his lust, is a big factor. Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Just pray that God would bring conviction into his heart over the matter. Then, he will need to heed that conviction, rather than stifling it. From a practical standpoint, maybe do some research on the internet and show him the disease and early death statistics of homosexuals. That might be enough to show him that this isn't just "an alternative lifestyle." Blessings...

Just make sure to "keep her through it"

Old Timer, I think you just created the PTV (post-trib version).

The Bible says we are to wait for Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist. Keep your eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith! Who the AC is can always be an intriguing discussion, but as you could likely guess from my postings in other threads, it is likely that you will not even see him declare himself. He could be alive, but according to the Bible, he cannot "let loose" until we are out of the way. Therefore, trying to figure out who he is is futile. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming; So, the "lawless one cannot be revealed" until the Restrainer, the Holy Spirit in the lives of you and I, are taken out of the way. Blessings...

Social anxiety disorder?

Very well then. But, I never said "I know it all." As a matter of fact, I have stated repeatedly that I don't. One think I do though is make an effort to back up every statement by the word of God. You'll never see me post a "is not" response. One thing I can say for sure... since debating on this whole trib thing over the last couple of weeks I am even now MORE convinced of the pre-trib. This because I've had to dig into the scriptures to examine the issue and, lo and behold, I'm now twice as convinced as when I started! So, iron sharpens iron, indeed. Thanks for the chat and any contribution to it that you make... Blessings to ya. Unlike some, I don't think the rapture issue is something we should divide over.

The time of the great tribulation is before God pours out His wrath. About time you learned the difference between tribulation and God's wrath. By all means, please expound on the scriptures for me.

That is likely due to that fact that the people writing books have done a bit of homework. Good eye! That indeed is prophetic, but not of the Church. It is prophetic of Israel as they will go through the GT and be tested. But, what you missed is that during that period guess who is completely missing? Daniel, himself! Daniel is likely off as an ambassador. And that, too, is prophetic... this time of the Church, as the Church will be absent during the GT. After all, Daniel is the focus of the book that bears his name. Don't you find it odd that he is gone during the "fiery furnace?" Furthermore, Jesus did not promise to "be with His Church" during the GT. Rather, He promised to keep us from it. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. How is that not clear? It always amazes me that post-tribbers think the Father is going to pour out His wrath on His Son's bride. That isn't very nice, is it? Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Trust me. I, being evil, wouldn't desecrate my son's bride, and neither will the Father Who is Holy. How could He do such a horrendous thing? Really? Jesus paid the price. It is finished. Thank you, Jesus my Lord!

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. I'm not sure Christians should be applauding the death of one who has not received Christ.

It isn't as strange as you think. It is rather biblical. Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. It certainly appears as though we could be "entertaining angels unawares."

It was actually 2bba that said that, not me. I think he was referring to my use of the word "predestined." This doctrine, although factual biblically, has of late lost much of its respect.

Kind of a funny questions, but I'll give it a shot. I believe he will be Jewish and likely of the tribe of Dan. But, there are those who believe he will be "Roman." The bible says of him: Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. He is called "Abaddon" in the Hebrew language. The word Abaddon has been understood to be a compound word of Abba, which is "father," and "don" as a reference to the tribe of "Dan." Literally, "father of Dan." There are good reasons for this and some against it. But, Jesus said this: Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Here Jesus states that the Jews will accept the Antichrist. Well, to put it mildly the religious Jews, to this day, aren't the most "loving of those outside the Jewish race." Among the orthodox Jews the spirit of the Pharisees is still somewhat alive. The head rabbi of Israel has been on record as stating that "1 million Arabs are not worth a single Jewish fingernail." So, given this atmosphere, I think the Antichrist must be Jewish in order gain the favor and acceptance of the Jewish people.

Ray, I hear your frustration, bro. And I think I can understand where you are coming from. You even twisted my "avatar" in your mind But, I would say this. Is there any unconfessed sin in your life, brother? Have you come to the end of yourself and surrendered yourself to God? Have you come to Him in confession and repentance for the past? If so, then God will heal you. You are right in that it probably won't be overnight. I had struggled with sin in my past and let it take root. When I finally sought the Lord for deliverance it didn't come right away. It was a long process of focusing on the Lord and becoming more Christ-minded. Slowly, but surely, it began to fade. So, too, I think might be the case with you. Fortunately, you see the gravity of your situation. Turn to the Lord and wait on Him. What other choice do you have? To continue in lies and error? Of course not. You only have one way to go, brother, and that is up. So, be patient and trust Him. Right now just pray to the Father and let Him know how miserable you are and that you are sorry for perverting His word in your heart. God will hear that prayer nad honor it. He wants you to understand Him more and more. God puts His word even above His very name, so you can be assured that this concerns Him. Do you tend to stick to the same bible translation? If so, maybe ditching that one for a while and getting a new translation would be helpful. I mean, if you have a KJV, don't go to a NKJV. Go to a NIV or a NASB. It needs to be significantly different in order to get that fresh feel. Know what I mean? That's just a suggestion. God bless ya.

You may stand against me "face to face", but if you have serious problems with my identifying heresies as such, then please speak to George, the owner, or any of the moderators. I refuse to allow any pre-tribber to get away with pandering their false doctrine without speaking up on behalf of the truth. I have shown time and time again how the pre-trib doctrine is false and does not line up with "sound doctrine". If you want to believe it, feel free, but don't think I will sit back and do nothing when your doctrine may be leading others astray. Your Servant in Christ, Dad Ernie Sir, it isn't your viewpoint that is distressing, it is your manner. I hardly find the rapture issue worthy of being considered "heresy" and "leading others astray." This isn't a salvation issue. If anything, the imminency of Christ's return provokes us to holiness. In any event, I guess you just labeled me "a heretic" so I guess you don't consider me a Christian, along with the millions of others who believe in pre-trib. I guess the way is even narrower than I thought, eh?

so who's interpretation of what end times are is correct? and why? It's very intriguing to me...with all the differing 'opinions' of what it is, who's is the right interpretation...I believe that scriptures are not clearly stating what it is, and therefore, I think that all people who believe what they believe think that THEY are right. Why would my question be the 'misinterpretation', and yours the 'right interpretation'? Humbly asked, not to start a 'fight' PLEASE~! Merely a question as I'm sure that others would disagree with you and say that YOU had the 'misinterpretation'. Peace. An honest inquiry is always welcome, and I will be the first to recognize that there is a difference of thought on this subject. Others here have referred to "the pre-trib lie.." whereas I would never use such language. The same thing for "once saved always saved?" These are doctrinal questions that can be debated without strife needing to enter in. To answer your question... The fact that there were 70 weeks determined for Israel and Jerusalem is a biblical fact. Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks (a week is a period of 7 years, so this is saying that there will be 70 seven year periods, or 70 X 7 years) are determined upon thy people (this is clearly referencing the Jews) and upon thy holy city (a clear reference to Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Then it goes on... Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (7 X 7 years), and threescore and two weeks (62 X 7 years): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. This verse says there will be " 7 weeks and 62 weeks." That equal 69 weeks until "the Messiah the Prince." This means that once the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given there would be 483 years before the Messiah would present Himself. Here is an amazing study that details just how accurate this prophecy was and it is another awesome testimony to the faithfulness of God and His word! (NOTE: This is a disection of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The article does not attempt to establish any specific "rapture position {pre/mid/post} as that is not the focus of the article.) Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Here, it shows that after 62 weeks (62 x 7 years = 483 years) Messiah would be "cut off (killed)." Dan 9:27 And he (the Antichrist, or the "Coming World Leader") shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Here we learn the Antichrist will establish a peace treaty with Israel for 1 week (7 years), but will abandon the treaty at the mid-point (3.5 years/42 months). This is when the GT period begins, not at the beginning of the 70th week. There is no indication that the first 3.5 year period is full of "tribulation." A proper understanding of the 70 weeks of Daniel is all that one needs in order to understand that the Church will not be part of the final week, seeing as they were not part of the first 69 weeks. The 70th week has nothing to do with the Church. It has everything to do with "thy people (the Jews) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem). If you can grasp this one point you the rapture occuring before this 70th week will be much easier to behold. Then, take the passages on the rapture and read them. Then, you will see the Church in heaven (Rev 5:9), right after the Church Dispensation (Rev 2-3) before the GT even begins (Rev 6-19). Also, notice that during the GT (Rev 6-19) God does not once address the Church, the Bride of Christ, by name. Apparently, if the Church is going through the GT, then He has nothing to say to them in this period. That would be unbelievable if it were true. Finally, remember that the words about the rapture were to be comforting. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Now, knowing I had to go through the bowls, vials, and trumpets of God and then be overcome and beheaded by the Antichrist would not be very comforting, would it? Blessings... Edited to correct HTML markups.

do you think we're going through tribulation now? 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33 what about immediately after Christ's ascension? Didn't even the apostles go through 'tribulation' even warning of tribulation to come upon those they preached to? 21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico'nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. Acts 14:21-22 Yes, but this is another misunderstanding on the end of post-tribbers. The tribulation that Jesus promised His followers would come from the world, the flesh, and the devil. The GT period is a time of God's wrath on a Christ rejecting world and the Antichrist. That is the difference. Jesus did not say that we would be subject to God's wrath, for Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, though my sins were scarlet, they are now white as snow! Furthermore, the GT is the 70th week of Daniel that is determined for Israel and Jerusalem, so the Church/Bride of Christ doesn't even fit in... as were nowhere in the first 69 weeks of Daniel that culminated at the Triumphal Entry. Right now, we are in a very peculiar dispensation between the 69th week and the 70th week, although we are part of neither. The word "tribulation" cannot just be thrown around to mean the same thing. After all, I've had Mexican friends named "Jesus," but I don't rely on them for salvation

Okay, DadE. Allow me to "withstand you to the face (Gal 2:11) here." We're discussing a doctrinal issue that has been debated for years and years. It is possible to read the scriptures and come to different conclusions on this issue, which is why there is diversity of opinion. But, to insult someone and call it "foolishness" and "idiocy" is arrogant and destructive to good fellowship. Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. 2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

I think He is waiting for the "fulness of the genitles to be brought in." There are still some to be saved and God knows who they are because He predestined them.

So there are no more miracles, teachers, healings, tongues or apostles either? Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 Interesting. Good point. I'll look into this because I'm not sure how to respond. But, when something comes up that I don't know, I always fall back on what I do know. And, I do know that Jesus was that great Prophet, the Word of God, that was prophesied in Deut. Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And that Hebrews states that God "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son," instead of through the method He used in the past, which was by prophets who spoke forth His word. Also, let's remember the test of a prophet of God. Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. A prophet who speaks for God must be 100% accurate or he was to be put to death. I'm not sure there are prophets anymore along the line of those in the OT. We have many who claim to be... in the LDS sect and I know Phelps from Westboro calls himself a prophet... and I'm one according to that "spiritial gifts test" Now, I'd never declare myself as a prophet. The only time you'll hear me say "Thus saith the Lord" is when I'm reading His holy word! I'd be suspect of anyone saying, "hearken unto me for I am a prophet. This is what the Lord would have you do." I'd respond with, "the Lord has my address. If He wants me to do such and such I'm sure He'll lay that on my heart." Thanks for the scripture though because I always like to search out new things! I'' PM you when I find out more... or post to this thread if it isn't too old.

Yes, a Muslim in America who is not killing in the jihad is "lukewarm."

I wonder if the "abortion-pride" T-Shirt has a picture of the remains of the baby they slaughtered on the front. But, probably not because they attempt to remove all humanity from the unborn. This is really pathetic and if God doesn't judge America soon, then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. Blessings...

Maybe because you were the judge. I've looked over your versed and, as usual, I fear they are simply due to a lack of understanding of the resurrection. I've commented on this in other threads, but if asked I'll repeat it. Blessings...

Ayubu, there are no more prophets in the order of the OT. Jesus was the end-all, be-all representative of God. Heb 1:1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, Heb 1:2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; So, in these last days God has spoken to us by His Son, Jesus, the very Word of God, Himself. What more needs to be said? If you have a question about what God would have you do, He says "look to Jesus." It says above, "God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets..." The implication here is that it is in the old days, not our current times. It then goes on, "hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son." The point made here is that Jesus is the final word from God. For, Jesus is the Word of God. Blessings...

Only if you would call your children pigs. And it will be done by those who were waiting for a rapture that never came. When the wrath is poured out and there is no food and water. They will eat their own children after they sacrifice them to their ever changing twisted god acording to their fleshly needs. In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: This is the abomination of desolation: 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (2nd Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (the Antichrist) be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. The Antichrist will set himself up in the temple as god and demand to be worshipped. This is the AoD. Pork has nothing to do with it Blessings...

This is because the prudent calculators forgot to add CHRIST'S three and a half year ministry into the equation. Which only leves 1.260 days or three and a half years or a time times and a half time, left. Ummm... so now your evidence for Biblical doctrine comes from extra-biblical sources? I can, as well should you. He said "your people and your city." That is a pretty clear designation. And, seeing how the Church dispensation is between the 69th week and the 70th week, it makes sense. Right now, God is focusing on the gentiles. His attention is there. Hence, the past 2,000 years are not included in the weeks of Daniel. Once the "times of the gentiles be fulfilled," then God will once again turn His eye back to Israel. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: So, once "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" then "all Israel shall be saved." In exactly that order. The point is that the first 69 weeks have already happened, and we know that the 70th week is the final 7 year period "to finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." Therefore, since the first 69 weeks have already happened, and the 70th hasn't started yet, then we must be in between them. Does that make sense? I hope that helps. Blessings to ya...