Akabu

For as amazing as that sounds, how about those thata live with Christ during the 1000 year reign, while satan is bound, who still refuse Christ and die at the age of 100? Human kind will always seek that which they want. For some it is Christ, for others it is sin. This is the point of Free Will. It is up to us to choose where we ultimately go.

Yes God is loving, but he is also just. Those who refuse to do His will shall also be punished accordingly. In this case you know what the stakes are. It is nothing like a parent telling a child to stay out of the cookie jar, it is like telling the child not to grab the sparking high voltage line on the ground. There is only 2 choices and 2 possible outcomes. Do as you are told and live or dont do as you are told and die. We know the consequences of our actions. The choice is as easy or hard as you want to make it. The question in my mind is this, do I want to live in peace and love forever or do I love the secular world with its sin and self indulgance enough to spend eternity in torment? All in all, 70 to 90 years is a very short time when compared to eternity.

Are the babies souls sent to hell? No. They were not at an age or position to have made a decision for or against Christ. So as with the rapture all will be seen as innocent and be with Jesus in Heaven. Will the mothers be sent to hell? They will certainly be judged by Jesus for their actions. It is murder after all. This is my opinion, so lets not turn this into a debate on when life starts. So unless the mother repents and accepts Jesus, yes, they will go to hell. Not for the abortion, but for rejecting Jesus Christ. Either way, the mother will be judged by Christ. As for the comment that God is sending the babies to hell....well, there seems to be about 10 pounds of manure in that 5 pound bag.

Blessings to you Sister! I was told a while back when I started to really study the Bible that it was only hard to understand if you make it hard. More to the point, if the Bible sounds figurative it is. However, as I read this verse it does not sound figurative at all. It says flat out we are surrounded. I don't think this is meaning so much that those of our family who have died before us and gone to heaven are surrounding us, but the angels of God are, without doubt (at least in my mind), among us for many reasons. Please don't hesitate to ask for clarification any time you need, but please keep in mind that there are many doctrines represented on this board and a point of view for each person here. Take what each person says, consider it's merits, and PRAY that God will grant you the wisdom to understand.

That is not quite right. During the creation the Bible never says all was good. The Bible says "it was good" refering to each thing. The Heavens and earth, the seas, the land, day and night, and so on. No mention of God creating hell and saying hell was good, because it was not good, it was necessary.

Hi Justin. Actually the UAE is a country. United Arab Emerates. It is kind of like the United States of America in that a group of "States" or cultures combined for a common goal and cause. Just FYI. BTW It is good to see that you are thinking about this and considering options. I also believe that Russia will sign a treaty or pact with Arab nations for the purpose of natural resources. Russias rescources are vast but hard to harvest due to weather conditions and other internal issues. I think Russia will get dragged in unwillingly because of this pact, but that it will not be terribly hard to drag them in due to the atheistic state of the government of Russia.

I agree with everything you wrote except the salvation part. Of course a person can loose their salvation. There are references in scripture of salvation being a past, present, and future event. Logically speaking how do you expect a person to turn away from sin if they are "saved." What's the point of not sleeping with my boyfriend, I'm "saved." What's the point of going to Church, I'm "saved." Again I will point to 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as through fire." What is the point of going to church? The point of reading the Bible? Because these are the things we are supposed to do to bring us closer to God. These are the "good works" that we will be rewarded for. There are many other things God wants us to do, all of which are designed to 1) bring us closer to Him, and 2) bring others closer to Him. If it is possible to lose your salvation then does that not say that Christ's death on the cross was not the perfect sacrifice that was needed? Why was Jesus sent to doe on the cross anyway? The practice of an animal sacrifice was so imperfect that it needed to be replaced. An animal, ANY animal is in no way comparable to the sin free being that Christ was on earth. That was the reason that an animal sacrifice was needed so often. It was an inperfect covering of our sins. Jesus, being sin free and perfect was the ultimate covering for the sins of man. Isaiah 51:6 "Lift up your eyes to the sky, then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, and the earth will wear out like a garment, and it's inhabitants will die in like manner, but My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not wane." Do I mean that once we are saved we can go about our lives as we want, sinning like the non-believers? No. We are commanded to do His will. More than that, we should want to do all things by the guiding principle of how does God want us to live. If we truly repent, and accept the salvation that Jesus gave us then we should have no problem with living as he wants. If we do not want to live as He wants, then the question is "Did we really accept his gift of salvation?" What about Mathew 10:22 "He who endures to the end will be saved." Lets see why do we have to wait until the end to be saved. Edited by Moderator What about Phil 2:12 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Boy why would I have to do this, I thought salvation was a one time event. These are just two examples in the Bible of salvation being more than a one time event. Sorry it took so long to respond, but I have been having some issues with my computer. Ended up having to replace the motherboard. Such is life... In reference to Phil 2:12, You must first read the entire chapter, not just a single verse, to get the context of what is being said. We are to endure through the trials of this secular world to reach the treasures laid for us in Heaven. We must work for the Lord to spread the word of God to all and to endure the consequences that this ungodly world will place upon us. Eph 2:10 tells us that after we are saved we are created unto good works. Meaning that we are to to do the things that God would have us do. The Bible says we are "Saved by grace, not through works" (Eph 2:8). For God to say I will give you something (grace) but I will also take it away from you is to say that God does not love us with a perfect love. If God does not love us with a perfect love then the entire Bible is a false teaching. I do not believe this is the case. If we are not saved by works then how is it possible to lose our salvation through works? It is not! Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." As I see it, if you have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and profess that faith by mouth then you are saved. If you lose the saving grace of God's gift then you never had true faith to begin with. Do not put your faith in works. Put your faith in God and His son Jesus Christ. Their love for us all and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for us is all that is needed to be saved. works are as chaff in the wind.

I agree with everything you wrote except the salvation part. Of course a person can loose their salvation. There are references in scripture of salvation being a past, present, and future event. Logically speaking how do you expect a person to turn away from sin if they are "saved." What's the point of not sleeping with my boyfriend, I'm "saved." What's the point of going to Church, I'm "saved." Again I will point to 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as through fire." What is the point of going to church? The point of reading the Bible? Because these are the things we are supposed to do to bring us closer to God. These are the "good works" that we will be rewarded for. There are many other things God wants us to do, all of which are designed to 1) bring us closer to Him, and 2) bring others closer to Him. If it is possible to lose your salvation then does that not say that Christ's death on the cross was not the perfect sacrifice that was needed? Why was Jesus sent to doe on the cross anyway? The practice of an animal sacrifice was so imperfect that it needed to be replaced. An animal, ANY animal is in no way comparable to the sin free being that Christ was on earth. That was the reason that an animal sacrifice was needed so often. It was an inperfect covering of our sins. Jesus, being sin free and perfect was the ultimate covering for the sins of man. Isaiah 51:6 "Lift up your eyes to the sky, then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, and the earth will wear out like a garment, and it's inhabitants will die in like manner, but My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not wane." Do I mean that once we are saved we can go about our lives as we want, sinning like the non-belivers? No. We are commanded to do His will. More than that, we should want to do all things by the guiding principle of how does God want us to live. If we truely repent, and accept the salvation that Jesus gave us then we should have no problem with living as he wants. If we do not want to live as He wants, then the question is "Did we really accept his gift of salvation?"

A breaking of ANY commandment of God is a sin. We ALL know what the commandments are. Even secular laws are based on these very same 10 commandments. Is suicide a sin? YES!!!! there is no doubt of this! The second commandment is "Thou shall not kill." (Ex 20:13) Unfortunately there are various translations to the affect of thou shall not murder, or thou shall not take a life. but even so I can find NO PLACE where God says "You cant kill anyone but yourself". If all commandments are written in the context of "You are commanded" and that is followed by "To not take a life" as in "Thou shall not kill" It does not matter WHO you kill, only that you killed and therefore broke a commandment of God. Given, God will forgive you if you confess your sin and repent of that sin, but how can you expect to have any chance to repent if you have already died. If you are dead, that's it! Game Over! Can a "Born-again" christian lose their salvation? No. We do know, however, that when you are judged by Jesus all your works will be tested by fire, and that unconfessed sin will reduce your rewards in heaven. (1Corinthians 3:12-15)

"A disturbing trend has been emerging in Christianity over recent years, a trend known as ecumenism, or the ecumenical movement. Ecumenism is the coming together of various 'Christian' denominations, based on unity in Christ, for dialogue and evangelism. This concept is flawed from the outset as Roman Catholicism denies many of the biblical teachings regarding salvation etc, liberals such as Bishop John Spong (Episcopalian) deny the virgin birth, miracles etc. Therefore any unity with those preaching 'another gospel' is wrong. The Anglican bishop J.C. Ryle said, "there can be no unity without truth". Yet it is this unity without truth that is promoted as being biblical today. Another gospel lies at the heart of the modern ecumenical movement." 2 Corinthians 6:14,15 says: "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?" (NKJV). Does anybody else see the beginnings of a movement to a "One World Religion"? Just a thought.

And yet, all groups will cling to this as mothers milk, and point to all the others and say "You See! I am right and you are wrong!" never once thinking that they themselves could be wrong. Untill each person can read the Bible with an open mind and accepting spirit they will never come to know the full Word of God. Unfortunately most people read the Bible with their own preconcieved ideas and notions. They seek out what they want to see and hear and ignore, or froget the rest. In some extreme cases they say "This part of the Bible is not relevant because our times are different". I would like to warn everybody now. If you say that ANY part of the Bible is not relevant anymore, then you are saying that God is not relevant anymore. God's word is true, and above all Timeless. God's Word is NEVER changing, and does not contridict itself unless it is taken out of context. I would like to ask all to please pray for God's guidance and wisdom before you read His Word. This may sound like a strange thing to many, but you might be amazed to find out how many people just pick up the Bible and read it like a novel. I used to do this for a long time. Now that I pray first, I seem to understand so much more, so much better.

I would be honored. I already consider you a close friend. Thank you for the compliment as well. Those are extreamly kind words. and they are fully returned in kind!

I have marked three verses for myself in my Bible that concern the church not going through the tribulation. I hope they help you. Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those upon the earth." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

So true Lawyer, and those that become Christians will have to go underground to survive and when they do, they will be populating in paradise. But those 7 years will be, well I really can't imagine how horrible it will be. I just pray I stay on gaurd and in my armor so I won't have to go through it. We should also keep in mind that after the rapture there will be those who: 1) Thought they were saved but were not because they never really put their faith in Christ, but will understand immediatly what has happened and why. Most will then repent and come to Christ knowing they will have to live through the tribulation. 2) There will be those who "remember someone telling them about the Bible" and seek out a Bible for themselves. Surely some of these will be able to read for themselves. 3) The two (2) witnesses will start to preach the Word of God which will give rise to the 144,000. These 144,000 converted Jews will travel throughout the world bringing multitudes to Christ. Just because the earth is plunged into the tribulation I cannot see that the word of God will just be automatically blotted from the minds of every living soul.

I see no need to forgive you as you did not give insult. I see this as an exchange of ideas. Yes, you are right, I thought that you were a mid or post trib beliver. Most of this was based on the way I was reading your posts. I assumed and that was wrong. I believe in the Pre-trib view based on what I have read, and because I dont want to get caught thinking that I will "see the signs" and cast away my sinful ways and accept Christ "just in time". I believe that if that is the drive of someone, they will be lost. If I do have to live through even part of the tribulation, then I can do so with a content heart because of my faith in and love for Jesus Christ. I would love to have the chance to sit in front of the antichrist and start to witness to him. Not that I think that I could change his mind, but more as a show that I have more love for Christ than fear of him. Actually, I have to thank you for directing me back to a very exciting part of the Bible that I have left unexplored while I study other parts of His word. I look forward to seeing you when we are by His side.

I think that you are not a Pre-Trib beliver. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I say that because you skip over the Tribulation, and the Judgment of the Nations (at the end of the tribulation). In fact it seems you skip to the final judgment for Question & Answer 2 and 3. Let me give my thoughts on what and when the Great White Throne judgment is. The Great White Throne judgment occurs at the end of the millenial kingdom (1000 year reign). This is to be the final judgment before the old heaven and earth pass away and are replaced by the new heaven and earth. ~~ Revelation 20:11-15 Those that are to be judged are those that lived through to the end of the tribulation and entered into the 1000 year riegn. There will be both living and dead. You need to remember that during the mellinial kingdom no one will live past 100 years old unless they accept Jesus Christ (Isaiah 65:20) The bad part of this is that even though people will live 100 years alongside of Jesus they will reject him (Revelation 20:8) Also during the last 100 years Satan will be released for one last time. There will be those who choose to follow Satan at this time. I can only see the reason for this because those who will be less than 100 years old at the end of the mellinial kingdom will have to decide for Jesus or against, but will not have the full 100 years to do so. At this time Satan will be cast into the lake of fire side the beast and the false prophet who were cast into the lake after the final battle at Armageddon during the Judgment of the Nations, but before the start of the millenial kingdom. Another group who will be judged at this time is those who died not knowing Christ, or those not saved, at anytime from Adam until the Great White Throne judgemnt (Revelation 20:12&13 and Revelation 20:5).

God has defined a Generation of man to be 120 years. The 40 years of wandering was the added time to have the generation that sinned die off (sorry for the cruddity). The generation that sinned with the golden idol was an older generation that grew up with the false gods of Egypt. However, we know that a generation of man, or his lifespan, is 120 years. Genesis 6:3 " And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." If you wanted to be a literalist you could say that the founding of Isreal in 1948 will start the clock and that on May 18th 2068 the Lord will come back. The Lord did not say that He will come back on the very last day of that generation, he said that the generation that sees will not die. I dont like to put dates to things like this because it creates false hopes, thoughts, and takes away from God's word. We dont know when he will come back. This is why any time I hear an organization say they have a date I discount their claim out of hand. Jesus said that even He did not know when the end would come, only God knew. So if a man dares to believe that he knows the mind of God, and knows more than even Jesus I will say that that person is a false teacher and should be ignored and driven from you, because that person seeks to decieve you.

I think you are quite right! I reread my post and see where it can be a little misleading as to my thought. I think the truths of the tribulation must be know to show the alternitive to not accepting the most important verses in the Bible. I truely believe that all a person, any person MUST understand in the Bible are the following verses: Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous, not even one." Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;" Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the nouth he confesses, resultin in salvation". However, it is also important to understand all aspects of the Bible so that a person can understand that they canot wait thinking"Oh, when I see the rapture start I will pray real quick and be with Jesus" I have a belief that many thousands will believe in the mid or post trib rapture and be cought up having to live, and even die in a very horrible way, through the tribulation. Also, I have found in my case, that the more I study and understand the Bible, the more I want to study and understand. I have always thought the Bible held some amazing stories and in the military I studied the military aspects of the battles and the leaders, but I have come to see it as more than stories now. I have a thirst for more! MUCH MORE! Also, off the topic, I have another question....I know that we will be living with the Word of God in Jesus Christ during the 1000 year reign, and after, but here is my question....Will someone write some new scriptures to study? A little irreverant I know, but funny to me anyway.

Hey there. I would not, and am not in the least upset, or think that you may be upset. Without discussion nobody lears anything. Food for thought? LOL! I always want to hear new ideas about what others think the Bible says so I can have as broad a specrtum of ideas to think about. I dont see how anybody could grow in faith or Christ unless we challange ourselves and others to consider ideas. As to what I think the chronology of the rapture is, I had to go back over my notes for a bit but here we go.... 1) The Lord Jesus will descend from heaven where he is preparing a place for us. ( John 14:1-3, 1st Thess 4:6) 2) He will resurrect those that sleep in Christ, or basically those that died as believing/saved Christians. (1st Thess 4:14-16) 3) Those who are alive in Christ will be changed in the twinkiling of an eye, and cought up in the clouds with the Lord. (1st Thess 4:17, 1st Cor 15:51, 53) 4) Christ will recieve us and take us to our father's (God's) house where will shall be with the Lord. (John 14:3, 1st Thess 4:17) 5) After the rapture, when all those in Christ have been recieved by Him, we will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ which is to prepare us for the marrige supper of the Lamb. (Not to be confused with the judgement of the Nations, or sheep and goats, before the 1000 year reign or The Great White Throne judgement that takes place after the 1000 year reign) (Romans 14:10, 1st Cor 3:11-15, 2nd Cor 5:10) 6) The final step that takes place, as I read it, is the "Marriage of the Lamb". This takes place in heaven during the time of tribulation on earth before He returns in power and glory to set up the 1000 year reign. (Matthew 24:21) Your final thoughts here are well said! If I am wrong please correct me, dont leave me hanging in the breeze when you could have helped save my soul! By the same token, If I am right, please, please heed the word before it is too late!

LoJ, Thank you so much for your words! They seem to me to be truely from God. It may be that your thought here reflect my thoughts as well, or it may be that God truely has placed the burden of His words on your heart. I used to scoff at those in my church, when I was younger, who said they felt God placing a need or burden on their hearts. I said they were delusional, they were after something. This was when I was walking away from God. Leaving on what I called my search for truth. How wrong I was then. Over the past 5 or 6 years I have come full circle back to the church and my faith is 1 million times stronger. I found that after I had shed my secular beliefs in science, and started taking God at His word, I started to understand what I had missed all these years. To the point when at several points I have dropped to my knees in prayer for the sole reason that I felt God had placed a burden on me to pray. May God Belss you LoJ, and please keep your heart open to Him.

There is the Dragon, which is satan. The beast is indeed, the Antichrist. Please bear in mind that even though John refers to the antichrist he is never called the antichrist in Revelation. (please correct me if I am wrong here). Not to muddy the waters more, there is also a reference to "the other beast" in revelation that if you read the passage as a whole you will see that this other beast is the false prophet. On the whole though, I dont think we will ever actually "see" the antichrist rise into the world leader role. It is my personal belief that the antichrist, or the beast, will gain his power in the chaotic aftermath of the rapture. It is through this chaos that I believe that the alliance of Islam and Russia will attack Isreal. Leading to rise of the antichrist as a great leader and seeker of peace. He will come forth with the peace treaty that will start the tribulation. As to who the beast will be? What I have gathered from Bible scholars is that: 1) he will be of "true" Roman descent. 2) he will come from the region that was once the Roman Empire ( though I am curious as to if that means the Empire during Christ's time, the Empire when it was forst declared as an Empire, or the Roman Empire at it's largest) 3) he will be a man of peace. 4) he will be the consummate diplomat, able to bring others to belive as he does through words ( and I believe a little help from satan and his minions, or fallen angles)

The Tribulation is the 7 year period that takes place starting with the signing of the "Peace Treaty" with Isreal. This "treaty" will allow Isreal to rebuild the temple and start sacrifices to God again. This is the treaty that will be broken after 3 and 1/2 years, at which time the anti-christ will sit in the temple and declare himself as god thus putting an end to sacrifices. The trib will include the time period of the 21 judgments from God: 7 Seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials or bowls. The Tribulation does not start with the rapture. There is a time period between the rapture and the start of the tribulation, much like the short span of time between the final battle of armeggon ( actually Har Meggido or Mount Meggido) and the 1000 year reign of Christ. Mind You: This is based on my Pre-Trib belief, my personal study of the Bible ( I dont think that my 1 year of actual hard study qualifies me as an expert, but I do listen to the experts ) and as with all things to everybody, my PERSONAL beliefs. God's grace to all!

Sometimes, it seems, people get confused with the Church that is raptured and the christians during the tribulation. Assuredly, there will be christians during the tribulation. The judgments of God will show many that He is God and they will turn to him. This will start with those who were brought up in the church but were not "right" with God. The Word of God will sperad throughout the world and multitudes will come to christ. These "new christians" will most definetly go through the tribulation with only a fragment living to the coming of Christ in triamph. Most of those who live to the end will be the remnant of Isreal who have returned to God through their belief in Jesus Christ. Those who come to know Christ during the tribulation will be the Saints who are martyred. Jesus will return to take those that are His. Being those that placed their belief in Christ as savior but died before the rapture, then those that are alive and have placed their belief in Christ. The next problem seems to come in not understanding that there is the rapture, the taking of belivers by Jesus, before the tribulation, The Judgment of nations before the 1000 year reign, and the final ressurection, which will then take all those who believed in God and followed his will, but died before Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins. Then ALL of those judged worthy (those who accepted the gift of Jesus Christ, and those who followed the will of God before) will enter into Heaven for eternity.

Also, to this I would like to add that man's law is constantly changing and evolving, based on the thoughts and needs of those in power. Look at how many times the supreame court of the U.S. has "Re-evaluated" the laws of the United States. Man is constantly contridicting himself due to the sin born in his heart. Always seeking for dominion over others for personal gain or pleasure. God's law is solid, never changing, and absolute. If God somehow contridicted himself he would not be God. Always be fearful, and question those who say you can only understand God's word by intrepretation by "learned scholars". God does not want to hide the truth of His word from his children. That would be like playing a game, being told that certain moves will disqualify you, but never being told what those moves are. I praise God that there are boards like this one to people with their questions about the scriptures. It is never easy to start an indepth study about any subject, but as people help others, everybody gains in understanding and the ability to study his word in ever-increasing understanding.

My belief in the Pre-Trib rapture is founded on several references in the bible. Of those, I find these three to be the most compelling. 1) Rev 3:10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." If we are meant to go through half or all of the tribulation why would Jesus himself say the HE will keep us from the hour of testing? 2) 1st Thess. 1:10 "And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." Admittedly, this is a controversal passage. Some contend that it means that we are protected by Jesus from those who would harm or defame us to gain for themselves. However, I am of the opinion that throughout the Bible it is referenced to God to protect us from the attacks of satan and those who do his bidding ( Human and Fallen Angle ), but when it specifically says Jesus will protect us, and especially to DELIVER us, it is a reference to delivery from the tribulation. 3) 1st Thess 5:9 " For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ". I would also like to point out Revelation 19:2 " Because His judgments are True and Righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of his bond-servants on her." If God's judgments are "True and Righteous" how can God place the same judgments on those who follow Christ and accept His salvation, that he places on those who reject him. To do so would be neither True or Righteous. On a final thought. Why would Jesus say I come to you as a thief in the night, and that Nobody knows the Day or the Hour when He will come? Since we can pinpoint the start of the Tribulation to the signing of the 7 year treaty with Isreal, we can therefore point out the mid-point of the tribulation as well as the end of the 7 years. With either of the mid or post trib theories we WILL know the day, if not the very hour. The ONLY way that mankind CANNOT know the day or hour is if the rapture is before the tribulation.