jackie d

what?! Don't worry about it Jackie. From the moment I first read the post it was clear and from a cursory glance at the site, it is simply yet another "Elijah" group. I have met/encountered/seen such many many times before, in fact I have lost count of all the different "Elijah's" that I have met and encountered. It is possible in this case, that the elder never claimed such a title nor would have, the 'title' may have been given posthumously. My former ministry was along these lines, "working" with such groups. I will say no more here upon this. As for the your OP, I agree with Jehovah Nissi. As for the gifts: That is indeed a question in this day and age. I believe/know/seen that they are alive and well, I also believe/know/seen that are many imposters. I always get totally lost with posts that sound like something other than sanity is speaking...know what I mean? anyway, I don't get involved in groups I just read the word, much safer in the Word than anywhere else. And I agree with Jehovah Nissi too.

But the guy's a Marxist, which usually means an atheist. Why would anyone expect someone, who doesn't have God in his life, to be other than ignorant and blasphemous? I'm shocked by this as well...but not as shocked as the Marxist will be on that last day. heavy interdeding prayers need to go out for this poor man....I know I will be. As Christ said, "forgive them they know not what they do."

Jesus was already dead when his side was pierced by the Roman Soldier's spear. Yeah - I was thinking the same thing. And besides the spleen is covered by the rib cage, so how would the soldier have pierced it? those were my thoughts too...there is an article posted by ladypeartree that is a medical outline of what Christ endured on the previous page, that I think was very interesting and made a clearer picture, kind of a like forensic science stuff....it really is interesting. But the spear in the side did not kill Him. As scripture is clear that He was dead before they brought Him down from the cross.

FYI, I didn't say anyone was taking away from the impact of Christ's death. I was simply making a statement of fact. Good, 'cause I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. No need to assign motives to me that I did not communictate. I'm sorry shiloh, I misunderstood your tone. Next time I'll ask for clarification....Please accept my apology.

all I can say, is take it from my own experiences with this kind of thing....get and stay as far away from this person as you can..regardless of how sorry you feel for him. I'll be praying for you

okay I can't speak for anyone else here just discussing the article and the medical aspects of the death. And I don't think anyone was trying to take away the impact or the power of Christ's sacrifice or the fact that He was in complete control. This discussion was really no different than the thread asking about Christ sweating like drops of blood. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with making a very clear and complete description of how He died and the cruel treatment of Him. Until just a couple of years ago all I had in my minds eye was a man, without mark or blood anywhere on His body execpt for a small little trickle of blood that ran down His forehead. A picture that man had created completely minimizing what He really went through. Perhaps if people got a better picture in their minds of what He REALLY went through, His sacrifice of His life for them would have a greater impact. Why continue a fairy tail picture of what our Savior allowed to happen to Him? A great example of that is how my 11 yr old daughter viewed His death compared to how she views it since I have explained to her what He actually did go through and what He must have looked like brutalized, bleeding and suffocating on that cross for hours before He finally spoke "it is finished".....

I agree terter, and I think we need to be very careful about making a sweeping statement about these things. Having had certain experiences that could be explained either way, has caused a lot of confusion in my mind and has messed somewhat with my faith. My experiences have taken some real beatings and left me afraid. Not only that I might be completely off base of what I may have thought and it has made it harder for me to trust people and their intentions toward me. I have taken these issues to the Lord in prayer and have come to only one conclusion, it is not an area that any of us should spend too much time in.

How do you figure? The spleen sits left in the abdominal cavity. The Lord was pierced in the side, by some accounts the left side. The major vessel were not involved, this would have brought almost instantaneous death. The Lord lost a fair amount of blood from the scourging, hench the thirst. His bones were not broken, so He was able to breath. Further loss of blood is from the spear wound. The physical cause of death had to be exsanquination. The spleen holds a fair amount of blood, up to a liter. For us His blood was shed. "so He was able to breath" I don't think we can be too sure of how well He could actually breath. When a person is dying many times their abdominal and chest cavities fill with fluids making it incredibly difficult to breath because the lungs are being crushed by the pressure of the fluids, often a person will 'drown' in these fluids. I don't agree that the spleen was pierced either. But if He did fill will serous or saline type of fluid because of the trauma of the beatings He took and then hanging there for hours it could be the explanation for the 'blood and water' that spilled from the piercing. Exsanguination is a possibility, but He lived for 6 hours on that cross, so it would have had to have been a slow bleed, it is possible....but truthfully I believe that the 'blood and water' came from the explanation above. Speaking requires the movement of air, also known as breathing. We know the Lord sopke while on the cross, well enough for those attending to hear Him. If the pleural cavity is filled with fluid or if the lung tissie itself is filled with fluid, the person will not be able to breath or talk very well, if at all. People die from all different causes, some do in fact have excessive amounts of fluid present in the abdomin or lungs. A fair amount need be present in the abdomin to obstruct the movement of the diaphram. These situations are the result of pre-existing medical conditions, but can be present after trauma. Although with trauma, one would not expect to see serosanquinous fluid. I can't remember exactly when the solider pierced our Lords side. Specifically the timing, and I did not comment on the amount of time before or after. And yes, it would have been a slow bleed, regardless of when the solider used his spear. The important point is that the Lords bones were not broken as foretold. This was a very common and consistent practice during crucifiction for the reasons previoulsy stated. And as we may not agree on these points. I think we do agree that the individual who thinks it "wasn't all that bad" is in a very sorry state of mind. Grace and Peace I read ladypeartree's post on the research done surrounding the possibilities of what actually caused the death, he even includes explanation on how he was able to speak and the difficulty. And you are right, the person who wrote the article stating it wasn't that bad is in a sorry state of mind. Bottom line, Christ died on the cross and it was excruciating and inhumane.

I sure don't have a complete answer for you either. But I can tell you that when I am in emotional need I talk to Jesus a lot. Driving, taking a shower, cleaing the house...everywhere. I'm not praying in the traditional sense, I'm just talking to Him and I talk and talk. It is a phenominon that it works too. If I just keep talking, crying, laughing whatever after a day or two I begin to feel linked to someone and not so alone and don't feel such a desire to reach out to people to meet my emotional needs. Now the hard part is that I often forget to do this too and then I find I have run into a brick wall if I try to take my emotional needs to people. Not because people don't care but 9 times out of 10 they speak to me and try to give me advice, plus they are incapable of filling the space in my heart that hurts.. The thing about Jesus is that He doesn't give advice or anything else, He just lends His ear and healing to my heart and soul. I have grown to find this completely sufficient, when I remember to do it, in this area.

thank you for sharing that. It tears at my heart. And explains much more than I ever imagined. I have watched many people die in the line of work I am in. I don't think I could have stood by and watched all those hours as Jesus suffocated to death.....(weeping emoticon here)

How do you figure? The spleen sits left in the abdominal cavity. The Lord was pierced in the side, by some accounts the left side. The major vessel were not involved, this would have brought almost instantaneous death. The Lord lost a fair amount of blood from the scourging, hench the thirst. His bones were not broken, so He was able to breath. Further loss of blood is from the spear wound. The physical cause of death had to be exsanquination. The spleen holds a fair amount of blood, up to a liter. For us His blood was shed. "so He was able to breath" I don't think we can be too sure of how well He could actually breath. When a person is dying many times their abdominal and chest cavities fill with fluids making it incredibly difficult to breath because the lungs are being crushed by the pressure of the fluids, often a person will 'drown' in these fluids. I don't agree that the spleen was pierced either. But if He did fill will serous or saline type of fluid because of the trauma of the beatings He took and then hanging there for hours it could be the explanation for the 'blood and water' that spilled from the piercing. Exsanguination is a possibility, but He lived for 6 hours on that cross, so it would have had to have been a slow bleed, it is possible....but truthfully I believe that the 'blood and water' came from the explanation above.

I am sorry for the loss of your friend and uncle in your life patricia, but I am so happy that you were blessed to know such love that comes from a place that looks beyond the sin of people and see the beautiful being that God created and loves so very much. blessings

Luk 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. Luk 12:52 "For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. and which house is Christ referring too? is it only individual family units? or could it be that Christ was speaking of ALL "houses"?

thanks OC that was well written and well said.

Mat 10:6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Mat 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[fn3] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. watching a little tv with my daughter patricia1 and then want to come back and talk if you are up....blessings and thanks for that post

actually I had quite a vivid imagination this morning as I read these ludicrous and hateful statements.

we aren't told in scripture to have no association with them. we're told to be in the world but not conformed by it. in other words, we can be friendly without going out and partying with them. that's how we witness. another way of putting it is that we are in this world but we are not of this world. We are separated but we have not been removed.

he whom much is forgiven loves much.

brrr! I'm sorry about that Joelle...is it real bad?

seems friend is the operative word here....Christ was/is the friend of every sinner before they became/become His friend. While we don't want to spend all of our quality time with people who have no belief system because it is not healthy for us. We can't turn our backs on those who really need us. So, with that being said, I'd say that it is up to us to be the friend first and leave it up to those who haven't accepted Christ after that. Something that used to really bother me is when I was early in recovery and some person who had quite a bit of time clean would begin talking about a person who was still out there using. And speaking quite authoritivly and piously, they would say something like they're hopeless and will die in their disease. My response was always, while there is breath there is HOPE..... Stand by your friend Jesus, as He didn't forsake us when we were steeped in sin. Learn from your Friend and emmulate Him. blessings

speaking of "believers" who still live in these lifestyles. I don't believe for a second that Paul is telling them not to reach out those who have not been saved. Of course that doesn't mean party with them, but we still have a commission to reach out to them. He is clearing up some confusion for some saints who thought they were not to keep company with sinners. He is saying here, that is not what I said. Sinners are to be sought out for contact and engagement. I told you not to fellowship with professing Christians living immoral lifestyles. The disfellowshipping was part of the church discipline to shun them. So they will hopefully experience godly sorrow that will produce repentance. That the cold shoulder will hopefully wale them up. But again, that is for backslidden Christains who want come to repentance. I thought that was what you were saying, but I wasn't 100% sure and I wasn't sure that others were understanding it either.

oh good, you can't tell me what a relief it is to hear what you just said. I have had so much trouble with this kind of thing...people telling me I'm insane and God doesn't cmmunicate with us anymore....I could almost cry with relief. blessings

Hi Jackie d They were great dreams I'm sure they must be of a great encouragement to you. If you don't mind me asking you this question, do you read the word much. Blessings, Mr T. all the time, why do you ask? I hope that you respond to me Mr T. as I am intrigued by your question.

speaking of "believers" who still live in these lifestyles. I don't believe for a second that Paul is telling them not to reach out those who have not been saved. Of course that doesn't mean party with them, but we still have a commission to reach out to them.

Let's step back a bit and ask why are there denominations in the first place? I have a very hard time believing that it has anything to do with "how" one worships, or 'how" a group holds church services, but rather, in what they hold as the truth. For an example, and only as an example because these issues have been brought up recently, the RCC has been pointed to as "idol" worshipers, even though the accept Jesus as their Savior. The SDA have been accused of false doctrine because they hold the Sabbath different then we do, but they have accepted Jesus as their Savior. These are not diversity matters, but divisional matters. Denominations have been developed along these dividing lines. Lines that were made from man's understanding. Should they be questioned? Should we try to mend these drifts? Paul wrote about division, as did Jude. But man has decided that this is a good thing, for it is easier to gather in like groups then try to correct a wrong. More like an attitude of "Live and Let Live." From what I see in scripture, there is going to be a great falling away. This falling away, to me, includes a large number of believers from many denominations who will water down their teachings and doctrines in order to bring unity into the world, better known as the One World Religion. Not all of these believers will blindly follow their church into this new way of believing. They will leave, searching for the real truth of the Word. Those who seek and hold fast to the real truth of the Word, will unite for Christ in the full Word of God. This may not change the names of the churches they belong to, but the doctrines and beliefs held true will change, uniting the true Body for Christ. This can not happen until we take the blinders off and see what is wrong in the church today. Many will step up and remark that they see something wrong, but few will admit that it is the split in the Body that Satan has encouraged us to have, that is the real problem. Divide and conquer. In every church, no matter what the denomination, there are those who whole heartedly search for truth and do not accept what they are told just because someone said it is the truth. They search the Word daily and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them and change their hearts according to what they have been shown. These are the people who will hold fast until the very end. They will come out of every denomination and church. I pray that we stand up for the undivided Body of Christ, Him being the head, as let loose the lie that we have come to believe and accept, and that is the fact that denominations are diversified bodies and not divided bodies. Some will wonder why this is such a huge matter to me. My only answer is that Christ told us that a house divided will not stand. well I guess I have one more thing to say... AMEN OneLight