JB Horn

John 6:65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." (HCSB)

If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The answer to both is yes. To say other wise is to deny God's Sovereignty. JB

De 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Ro 11:7-8

Hi JB, You took the words right out of my mouth and stated it better than I could have. There is only one Church of which we should concern ourselves of membership. All true, which is why the refusal to be part of that true Church would be a real concern. True church or congregation Smalcald? What church was the eunuch baptized into? JB

Hey JB, Yes, she is. I find the fact, that neither church would baptize her, a little preposterous and not Christ centered. Should we encourage her to travel out of town to find a church. Should she ask if her relatives could arrange a baptism in their church, when she visits. Or should we pat her on the back and say "That's Ok, baptism isn't a requirement of Salvation?" Thanks for your thoughts. Respectfully, Mudcat Hi, In this case, I would agree with these churches that you do not simply play around with baptism, I think the same would hold for communion. Baptism is serious, adults should not be baptized who do not even understand what the congregation believes about baptism, thus they should be members in my opinion, or in the process of becoming a member. Why would you seek Baptism in a Church you refused to join? IF joining this Church IS against your faith, then you should not seek to be baptized by them. Not that the baptism is dependant on who does it or what the congregation is or is not, the key though is playing around with the Sacrament of Baptism, it is not a McDonalds meal that one can just drop in and get then go on your way, congregations need to take this seriously, and one way to do that is to reach out to people in love offering them to join and be one with that Christian group and to instruct them in the Christian faith and insruct them in what they are receiving in Baptism. As they were traveling down the road, they came to some water. The eunuch said, "Look, there's water! What would keep me from being baptized?" And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart you may." And he replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." It's not baptism in a Church, it's baptism in The Church. Do you want to stand in front of God and explain to Him why you refused to baptize a Christian or where you came up with this extra requirement for baptism? JB

Verse 34 tells us that they also had dinner... is that now a requirement of salvation? 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God--he and his whole family.

Mudcat Actually it is a common practice in many of todays churches not baptize non-members. For fun do some research in your community by simply calling your local churches and see what kind of answer you get from them. What you tell the lady is that there is no requirement that baptism be done in a church or by a cleric, new christians do not understand this. My point in my last post was that you tried to explain your definition of refuse with this: Refuse to me means to reject. For a Christian to reject baptism is a denial of Christ request and teaching. I would even say that rejecting baptism is in a way denial of Christ. This is not an act of a Christian. There are Christians who do not reject baptism but do not seek it either. And there are unchurched Christians who have never taken communion as there are Christians who carry rabbits foots for luck. Someone who takes the time to read the Bible, can't walk away from it with an understanding that they should take communion and not worship rabbits foots. JB

Not being baptized does not mean one has refused. A woman lives in a small town with two churches. She came to Christ with the help of her visiting relatives and the calling of John 6. After a while of reading and long distance counseling she decided to be baptized. Both churches refused to baptize her unless she joined their church but she does not like the leaders of either church and refuses to join. Is she s Christian? JB

You're asking can a Christian refuse a request of Christ. I don't see how. Refuse is a strong word and it would imply to defy Christ. It is clear that baptism is not needed for salvation Rom 10:9-10 Acts 16:30-31. But it does help the requirement to confess with your mouth. JB

Are you suggesting sin is OK because we live under grace? Paul would disagree Romans 6:1-4 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: like as Christ from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so should we walk in newness of life. Do you say we can be justified by faith alone without any confirming works? James would disagree. James 2:17-18, 20, & 24 17 Even so faith,if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 yea, a man may say thou have faith and I have works, show me your faith without thy works and I will show you my faith by my works. 20 But thou will know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead. 24 You see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. I'm not suggesting anything my friend it is the Scripture you have an argument with. Unless of course you're telling me that you have never sinned from the time you accepted Christ. The only other thing that would be to say the Scripture contradicts it's self. Actually what James is saying is with faith comes love and with love comes the acts of love. In other words you shall know them by their fruits. Now I answered your questions but you have yet to answer mine I can not find a Christian that can look me in the eye and tell me that he has not sinned since he was saved. What will become of these saved sinners? JB

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. Titus 3:5 He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 This Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life. Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? 2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so much for nothing--if in fact it was for nothing? 5 So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. Are we still imprisoned? No we obey the law because of our love for Christ. I can not find a Christian that can look me in the eye and tell me that he has not sinned since he was saved. What will become of these saved sinners? JB

Galatians 3:10

Mt 6:19 "Don't collect for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. Matthew 5:10

This is what I was taught as well....that suicide is self-murder and, therefore, a mortal sin. I apologize for being off topic but could you explain the deference to me between a mortal sin and a non-mortal sin. Thank you JB I suppose I used the term I heard the older generation use when I was younger; I think they meant a sin that was impossible to repent. I could be off base but....well think about it. If you're no longer here how could you repent? I'm no expert on Scripture but I'm going on what I was taught. Thank you MorningGlory. 1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. So if someone shoots you and your last thoughts are a little bit of hate for the guy that did it you go to hell. JB

This is what I was taught as well....that suicide is self-murder and, therefore, a mortal sin. I apologize for being off topic but could you explain the deference to me between a mortal sin and a non-mortal sin. Thank you JB

Lamentations 3:37 Who is there who speaks and it happens, unless the Lord has ordained [it]? 3:38 Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High? Amos 3:6 If a ram's horn is blown in a city, aren't people afraid? If a disaster occurs in a city, hasn't the Lord done it? Micah 1:12 Though the residents of Maroth anxiously wait for something good, calamity has come from the Lord to the gate of Jerusalem. Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Grace is not a loan that needs to be repaid, it is truly free paid in full for by the giver. JB

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Just a fulfillment of the OT Scriptures. JB

I would argue that the Sabbath is more 'commonly known today as' Sunday. But the truth is it is the day after six days of labour. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work

Jemdude jenwat3 God's commandment is based 6 days of labor and one day of rest not on some day assigned by man and his calendar which changes from across the world. As far as the Jews have successfully preserved the 7th day Sabbath, are these the same Jews that heard the prophets teachings of the coming Messiah? Well they sure got that right didn't they. Sorry but the Sabbath means day of rest not Saturday. That day very well may be on a Saturday for some but for most it is not. It is amazing how you can take some parts of the commandment literally and other just brush off because it doesn't fit your life style. IHS JB

Jemdude jenwat3 This is not a debate on observing the Sabbath or not observing the Sabbath, it is about WHEN to observe the Sabbath. And here is what He wrote. 8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work

Which counsel would that be? Since the Sabbath was made for man (His counsel), it was made for you to keep. Or are you not a man? "This man is not from God" was not Christ speaking, so it was not His counsel. Colossians 2:16 Therefore don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day. 2:17 These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah. Romans 14:5 One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind. 14:6 Whoever observes the day, observes it to the Lord. Whoever eats, eats to the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is to the Lord that he does not eat, yet he thanks God. 14:10 But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will give praise to God. 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore, let us no longer criticize one another, but instead decide not to put a stumbling block or pitfall in your brother's way. So for sure it's not your counsel. IHS JB

jenwat3 and Vickilynn To be able to tell me when the Actual Week or the Biblical Sabbath is you must first be able to tell me exactly how many days ago God said let there be light. Then it is a simple matter of dividing that number by seven to find out what day today is. I have been watching this thread with interest it appears that some of you would like to see the Sabbath used as a stumbling block for man. A famous man once said, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And it was said also of Jesus, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." If you don't mind I'll keep His counsel. Have a nice Actual Week. JB

I get my mail from the first day to the sixth day and I rest and worship on the seventh day. It is obvious that the authorities have chosen which is the day of rest and I follow their authority as directed by Scripture. This is about the work week and the day of rest not the stumbling block the pagan calendar. Some start their work week on Saturday. JB Shalom JB, The AUTHORITY of G-d is that the 7th day is not Sunday. But, you know, you are free to rest any day you wish. It does not negate the Sabbath day being Saturday, actually, Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Authority to set the work week Rom 13. JB

I get my mail from the first day to the sixth day and I rest and worship on the seventh day. It is obvious that the authorities have chosen which is the day of rest and I follow their authority as directed by Scripture. This is about the work week and the day of rest not the stumbling block the pagan calendar. Some start their work week on Saturday. JB