Tzav_LaTzav

Ah, the weekend days with all the holidays are over, and alas! I can only be on the computer a short while, 'cause it's back to work. Regardless, I caught this new answer from Mike: What I don't understand is this: if speaking in tongues is of the H Spirit, why does anyone need to discipline them, because in doing so, one is disciplining the H Spirit! Also, if the person speaking iin tongues needs discipline regarding tongues, it seems to me that this automatically means that the tongues are not of the H Spirit but of human origin. If they are of human origin, they are not of G-d. That is pretty frightening! . . . if the Gifts of the Spirit are not for use, why were they even included when the Bible was set up for cannonizaiton???? would they not have been deleted if they were not longer needed???? fact is, they are still in operation this day, and will be UNTIL ALL IS MADE PERFECT.... that will not be until Christ returns and takes His throne on this earth..... mike Mike, I have No Doubt that the gifts of the Sp rit are both extant and in use -- I never wrote that they were not (not that you accused me of such). What I am writing is this: I have seen tongues faked many, many more times than I have seen them appearing to be real. I have been around their use when the atmosphere was spiritually-discernably icy-cold and uncomfortable and when it was not. With regard to falling backwards, I have only been around that once when I walked into a church in the middle of the service, and the feeling in there was unmercifully like walking through an electrically-charged field. My hair stood on end and prickled. It was not nice. There was something in there . . . definitely something. Otherwise, all I know of these things are what I have seen on television on those very few times I have watched this out of curiosity. I operate in one of the listed gifts on a daily basis, less in another of the listed gifts. Neither of these gifts are showy or exciting, and I am very happy with that. G-d does not have to create a show to get me excited about Him and living The Life in Him.

Thank you! I may take you up on that!!

Nice!

Sarsams on your part or not, I don't recall anyone in this thread writing that they deny the gifts of the Spirit.

Hr, what is completely blasphemous to me is that some of these magicians disguise their magic and call it the H Spirit, when He has not known them! Such are of that group who will hear Him say, "I never knew you!" I have been around such, in one church service, while I have not been around ANY who can knock people over in the actual power of the H Spirit. I also do not believe people can give anyone the H Spirit. Judgmental? You bet. But I am writing from personal experience.

When Moishe received the Ten Words, HaShem says to him, he says, "Moishe! You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk!" So says Moishe to Him, "Oh, HaShem," he says, "Do you mean that we should not eat milk and meat at the same meal?" "No, Moishe; what I mean is you shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk." "Oh, HaShem! I understand You now! You mean we should wait an hour between eating milk and eating milk!" HaShem says, He says, "No, no, no! What I mean is you shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk." "Oh, HaShem! Forgive my stupidity! So You mean that separate dishes should be used for meat and milk products!" "Oy!" says HaShem. He says, "Have it your way!" _____________________________ A rabbi and his friend, a priest, were conversing. "Rabbi," said the priest, "I just don't understand why you won't eat pork. It tastes so good. Why would G-d have created something so delicious if not for you to have it? When will you finally break down and try some?" "At your wedding, Father."

From post #4 I have a question: What would you expect, had this guy "work[ed] his magic"? I have no clue!! I really would like to know what anyone here thinks: if one is not willing to speak in tongues or fall backwards, do you know what would happen if a preacher like this tried to "work his magic" on that one? Now, does it make sense to you?

Oh, my. I haven't had the best fortune in this matter. My first love, when I was in first grade -- one Sunday morning, he was run over by a drunk driver while crossing the street to meet his father. My second was killed in a plane accident after 8.5 years of marriage. I don't know -- I think this kind of thing gives a person a certain hardness. But I am trying, by the grace of G-d, to soften those rough, sharp edges.

I have a question: What would you expect, had this guy "work[ed] his magic"? I have no clue!! I really would like to know what anyone here thinks: if one is not willing to speak in tongues or fall backwards, do you know what would happen if a preacher like this tried to "work his magic" on that one?

I don't anymore. I used to, but I walked away and dusted them off my feet. The only type of people that has followed me from that place is The Correctors: people who think they must correct others, yet these are in the Plank Pattern -- they see the sliver in the eye of others while ignoring the plank in their own. Fortunately, in the year this person has been in my place of worship, he has only done this to me once, so this is easily forgivable. It's funny, though, regarding this type: they so easily use the Scripture regarding the "weaker brother" without realizing that the "weaker brother" is them!! They, however, need to be inb the congregation, because they teach us some good things: how to be patient and how to take these things in silence, until we know for sure that we should explain things to them. Personally, I am glad for every type in the congregation we see in somewhat negative terms. Each one has taught me (actually, wonderful) lessons: The loud ones -- the boistrous ones -- sometimes teach me that I am too restrained and unemotional. The correctors teach me to recognize my own critical spirit. The narcissistic teach me to see my own narcissistic responses and actions. The quick-to-speak teach me that I can also be like that and that I am sometimes too slow to respond. And so it goes. _________________________ Bolt -- Just wondering: are you The Bolt because you are among so many Nuts?

Did you think I was avoiding this thread? You were right. ...which Scriptures exactly? I want to reassure you that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves. Yes, I understand that no Scripture contradicts Scripture, when it is properly translated from the autographs, and when properly-translated Scripture appears to contradict, there is error on the reader's part. Regardless, I still have questions about this, because I am a Bible student, certainly not a scholar, and I have much to learn. I have my nose in the Bible at every chance, but there is so much there as well as a lot for me to unlearn. I have so much to learn that I really have not broached this subject as must be done. Until I can get to the point at which I can study it, I simply live like a holiness-Arminian but accept the reformed doctrine as a likely truth.

Why, read Pauls admonishment of the Corinthian Church. See if that church does not sound like many of the modern day Pentecostal churches that also need that admonishment. I have read it, Hr.jr. That's what's scaring me. It was all there -- right down to the abuse of G-d's Torah re sexual matters. I have a curious question for you. Why do some people type G-d? Why is the 'o' left out of God? Just curious! It's out of respect for His Holy Name. When Jews copied out scrolls, they would break their writing utensil after writing the Holy name of God, because it would never write a greater Name (they might do it still, for all I know). I think this is something along those lines. Wow! Interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks. Well, in short, after years of consideration and of not writing the whole name of G-d or of the words directly connected with Him in our society, it comes down to this for me: the more I learn about Him, the more I love and respect Him. Now, I do not do this out of tradition but out of that love and respect. It is just my response, with no judgment whatsoever that reaches outside of myself.

Oh, now, you're scaring me, hr.jr.

I used to belong to a church that believed in speaking in tongues as the only evidence of the receipt of the baptism of the H Spirit, but people did not speak in tongues there outside of in prayer in any service I attended. (Tongues, there, were never interpretted in my presence, although I was in that organization over 50 years.) Having been reared this way, I have spoken in tongues -- a very few times -- and only once did I truly believe it was genuine. That one time was toward the end of my tenure in that church. It was the pastor's last night in that church. Because the leadership in that church had lied about him to organizational authorities, spreading rumors without truth in them about him as well as rumors that were recreations of the truth with only small bits of truth retained, he had been removed from that pastorate by the headquarters church. That night, I did speak in tongues, and it was very uncomfortable. I didn't want to, and I resisted but finally gave in. After a few words, I clamped my mouth shut. I have not spoken in tongues since. I have turned that over and over in my mind, until one day about four years later, I was reading Isaiah 28. Then, I understood a little better . . . a little. I left that church a year and a half later. I was one of the latter ones to leave. While the pastor who was removed was still there, we averaged 220 on Sunday mornings. It took a little over a month after the pastor's removal for the Sunday morning attendance to drop to about 75. When I left, it was down to about 50. After I left, in about two year's time, it dropped to about 25, where I think it remains today, seven years later. I now attend a place of worship where tongues are neither denied nor practiced. Bluntly, I see more of G-d in the lives of the leaders and people where I now attend than I ever saw in the other church, in spite of their claims of being so holy. I am so unimpressed with the tongues movement, that claims that one must speak in tongues -- as well as those who claim one must fall backwards to the ground in order to experience G-d.

Well, it didn't happen with either of my children: both are serving the L-rd. We all have a personal society that varies from others' societies, but this kind of thing simply is not normal in mine. Sorry -- the strongest thing I drink is Market Spice tea, and I have been personally in the war against abuse since I was age 22. Nope -- not interested in abusing you either! We are new here together, and while I have only read a couple of your posts, I happen to like you. Hey -- maybe you are one of my grandsons!!

Oh, thank you! How delightful!!!

That was written by me -- I had to change my name, so Sideir is "dead." I want to definitely come nearer to Him I want to take more biblical classes I want to become gentler I want to be more attentive If G-d can accomplish these things through me, 2007 will be better for me and for those around me.

I suppose everyone's experience might be slightly different as we each have a different temperament. For myself, I speak in tongues only occasionally, in times of private prayer when I am experiencing great distress, or great joy. Paul said: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" and "forbid not to speak with tongues." If any denomination teaches against speaking in tongues they are teaching contrary to what Paul said. If any church has no one in their congregations who speak in tongues, one would have to wonder why. However, everything must be done in Scriptural order. Yeah, it is irritating that a lot of churches (though by no means all churches) seem to go to extremes with it: either completely teaching against it or just letting people go nuts with it. this is what Paul was teaching in 1st Corr 12, 13, 14.... dicipline... use and abuse..... What I don't understand is this: if speaking in tongues is of the H Spirit, why does anyone need to discipline them, because in doing so, one is disciplining the H Spirit! Also, if the person speaking iin tongues needs discipline regarding tongues, it seems to me that this automatically means that the tongues are not of the H Spirit but of human origin. If they are of human origin, they are not of G-d. That is pretty frightening!

Reconditioned, perhaps it is because I am old, but you sound young to me. That is nice. Here's the thing: understanding His will, discernment, and coming to know G-d on a deeper level comes with studying and hearing the Bible. It's that simple. Simple, but it takes time. G-d does not expect young people to have 60-year-old heads! His plan is in action for you, and He loves you young, while He loves me old. If you are responding to the knowledge you have been provided, you have to accept that you are perfect. Biblically, perfect, as you probably know, is mature -- mature in what you know/have. What He wants for every believer is for them to desire to know Him and to be willing to be mature in Him. Maturity comes with attentiveness -- not to a teacher, because people fail us but to Him and the book He has provided. Take time to read it, but more importantly, take time to study it. It is a gripping book that never grows old, and when you think you know it all, when it becomes boring, you are likely standing on the precipice of another biblical journey into new growth, if you apply yourself and you don't get lazy or neglectful toward it. If you don't have a desire for His Word, ask Him for it and for wisdom. I am SO serious -- if you will ask, He will give it to you, then you need to let that desire do its work in you. If you lose the desire, ask again and apply yourself again. You will never know G-d, never know His will, until you reach out to grasp the instruction book He has provided. He does not usually knock us on the head and say, "Stop that!" or give us a shove in some particular direction, but he gives us a conscience that will tell us right from wrong if we don't sear it by persistent wrong-doing. A conscience is a tender thing: don't hurt it, and it will be there for you; go against it, and you wound it, making it harder and harder to hear it. I understand that a little too well. However, He is apparently not like the earthly father figures you have known. This One cares. This One knows all about you and loves you unguardedly anyway. This One seeks only the best for you. This One is absolutely void of selfish motive toward you. This One has actual PLANS for your success! Just get to know Him through the Bible -- it's the only way.

I am not sure what the Nazarene church teaches about this -- their definition of it -- but I know many Nazarenes, and not one of them sees themselves as having reached faultlessness. They do, however, believe in living perfectly, as in maturely, the biblical definition of perfection. As I understand it, entire sanctification is maturity in Messiah -- living according to their received understanding.

I was reared on KJV and had attended a church that taught against other translations, but I enjoy the NASB especially. But mine is too big to carry about, so I am trying to purchase the smallest one I can find. I found one offered on the Internet and ordered it. They said it had been mailed out, then they wrote and said they were out of them! I've been waiting for two weeks now. It's killing me!!!

While I don't observe either Christmas or Easter, I think people who do not often get down-right mean about it, accusing one another of being pagan or irreligious or -- well -- whatever. Certainly, most people who haunt the Internet sites for believers know its origins, know its problems, etc., those who celebrate it have made their choices. It does no good to berate them. Sometimes, I look at people who call themselves believers and wonder how they think they will survive eternity with the people they berate here. I'll tell you what: when I become perfect, I will surely let you know. I am sure that I do things that are not perfect before the L-rd. Not that I want to, but I know that I do.

My husband and I always talk about going to a movie, but we rarely do it. There's always a bit of dread in relation to going. At home, I tend to stick to the History Channel, National Geo, and Animal Planet. Hey -- Dog Whisper rules! Especially considerring the fact that I have been bitten so many times I lost count.

Well, I did, but I think I was in too big of a hurry!

clear error on that leaders part. Amein! The above was actually written by me, under a name I will no longer use. I have a question: What would you expect, had this guy "work[ed] his magic"? I have no clue!!