Axxman

Hey Shiloh... I think we're done here. Its just the two of us now and the convo has basically disintegrated into you calling me a liar, and me saying "no I'm not."

I said it was a joke...lol....loosen up! I say one thing that you took the wrong way, and I quickly explained, and suddenly I'm on par with this guy that throws verbal grenades everytime he gets in over his head.

That's been going both ways, though. Has it? I don't recall defining the spirit of his every post...hmmm. I don't recall saying anything close to accusing him of "having a crush of Islam" or "treating Islam like a 90 yr old grandmother." Or any of the other attacks and innuendos. In fact, I have tried several times to let him know that he is of value to me, that I have learned from him, and that I consider him a source of knowledge on certain topics....there is no BOTH ways about any of it. But I'm okay

Aliens? Really? Thats your bar for over-the-top and outlandish? LOL!!! SO nothing anybody says is ever outlandish to you unless they bring out the extra-terrestials? Gimme a break bro! While I agree that would be crazy...I also happen to think that sitting on National TV and saying things like, "Yeah, they thought I was a genius, you know, so one of the top spy agencies in the world dropped their agendas and started working for me and my agendas." is an equally over-the-top statement...along with the multiple other things he has said. I could almost buy that line of reasoning...if he didn't reiterate the point by saying "I said it earlier, and I don't know if you believed me or not, but I was serious..." Also, many of his outrageous comments about Israel are repeated in many interviews...its how he feels. I am not assigning anything to his words. Hmmm...Upon re-reading the exchange I can see that you may have been referring to the second sentence about not knowing about "G's" dismissal. I wasn't trying to misrepresent you. I simply thought you were referring to the whole portion of my comment that you re-quoted. I apologize. ME: No, it was more the fact that you simply didn't know the material. You had no idea that "G" was dismissed from the Shin Bet. YOU: No, I didn't. So what?? Assuming that I'm reading it right now, that was an easy mistake to make...totally unintentional. Hold up!! We get points for this??? You keep accusing me of misrepresenting him...but then you say you've read and/or seen other interviews with him. That does not compute with me because so have I and he says the same thing in almost all his interviews...lol. I will admit that Amanpour is the only person I've heard him tell that he could go home and live if he wanted to. But that stands to reason since shortly after making that statement he suddenly became afraid to go home and launched his "the US gov't is trying to kill me" campaign. Tell you what...you show me ANYTHING, from any interview that refutes these comments that I am allegedly misrepresenting. I have to admit that the thought has crossed my mind that if you were as good at reading those guys, as you have been with me...its possible they had a point. Cuz you have me pegged all wrong.... Stop attacking me because you got this one wrong from your very first post. I doubt you could judge my character (or spirit) if we were in the same room...let alone by my typing style on a forum...lol!!!

I am happy that he commemorated the 4th of July in such a fitting and patriotic way! Good for him. I just wish the President we had on Sunday was the same president we have on Monday...

So you've read one interview (thanks to me), read or heard some snippets, and skipped the book...and now your the authority on what he says, and in what context? I don't think so. You have it wrong! I've seen and heard quite a few radio and tv interviews and I read the book. These things that you keep saying I am taking out of context are things that he repeats over and over and over again. Now, we may disagree on the definitions of over-the-top or sensational...that could be a key. I happen to think that claiming that the Shin Bet worked for him and his agendas is over-the-top. I happen to think that his claims that he could go home and live in his hometown in Palestine is sensational. I happen to think that his comments about Israel being occupiers is outlandish. If you don't think they are sensational or outlandish then there isn't alot to be done about that...I can't change your mind...but you can't change the fact that HE HAS made those statements. lol...boy do you have me pegged wrong. I am hardly an expert on every subject which is why I spend MORE time reading comments on Worthy than I do commenting. I don't comment on 90% of the subjects on Worthy...because I am clueless on 90% of the topics on Worthy. I am consistently amazed at the knowledge that people have on various subjects...it really is a wonderful and varied group that is collected here. And believe it or not...you are one of them. I agree with you and learn from you more than you know. There are many times that I have avoided commenting in topics that I am familiar with because you or somebody else is already all over it and I'm afraid to sound stoopid in comparison...lol. With that said...there are some topics that I am pretty good with and I pretty much keep myself in that little corner. You don't know me...I wish you did because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't dislike me so much...but you don't so quit thinking that you can judge my spirit because you don't like my typing style. Thats weird. I don't think I discredited either of them. If anything I discredited a newssource that got it wrong. You are back to square one trying to insist that I don't like the guy. I've said repeatedly that I don't dislike him, or judge him...but he says some things that bother me. **edit to add** ---> Maybe in a way I am discrediting him in your view. You seem to have kinda had him on a pedestal (not literally) and I'm telling you things about him that make him look worse than you thought. From that perspective I can see your point. Its not really an effort on my part to discredit him...more of just telling people why everything he says doesn't quite gel for me. Now your having to admit that you did not have a grasp of the materials, you weren't following the story, and your defending a guy who is shady at best in his defense of Israel. So instead, you have to go after me...the one who was following the story and had a grasp of the topic...as a know-it-all, arrogant bully. The fact is, you are still claiming that he didn't say these things by accusing me of misrepresenting or spinning things that he has repeatedly said. Wow bro...you really need to research this guy then...lol. Yes, he does tell the truth about radical islam from his experience. He is equally harsh in his comments of Israel...which bothers some people. Well...maybe not equally harsh...but pretty bad. He consistently blames the Israeli occupation and violence by Israel for the rise in terrorism. We both know that I am sympathetic to the Muslim community, I don't apologize for that. Yousef trumps me in that catagory BIGTIME! You'll never hear me blame Israel for the rise in Islamic extremism. I heard him on the radio 2 days ago...the interviewer asked him TWICE to explain how rough it was growing up in Hamas. Yousef immediately began talking about the Israeli occupation and how rough it is growing up seeing Israel destroying villages...the interviewer cut him off!! The interviewer then re-asked the question about Hamas and childhood...and again he began talking about Israel and how Palestinian children have it rough because of the occupation and settlements...they let him talk for a minute before going to commercial. So yes, we can give him credit where it is due...but he repeatedly says things that give me pause. You call it residue...I call it a reason to be cautious. I think it's important to note that Mosab has made a number of anti-Israeli remarks, lies and blood libels against the Jewish people." -- Pamela Gellar "Israel can be a problem, yes, I admit that, and I agree, I am against occupation. But they blame everything on occupation, Muslims look at themselves and say,

I'll bet people hate us...lol. We get in these discussions and we just run with it. We should have a talk show...NO CALLERS! LOL!!!

LOL...so I'm the over-the-top one..and he's completely okay in seriously claiming things like Shin Bet saw him as a genius and dropped their agenda's in order to work for him. Okie-dokie.... I'm not trumping anything up...those are his own words. If its trumped up its because of him, not me. Oh brother. Now you can read my mind?!?! I don't think you're stoopid...generally...but you are the one that came blustering into a topic that you know absolutely nothing about. I would never use the word stoopid or idiot to describe you. On topics that you have studied you are brilliant. I'll give you all the credit in the world when you are right. For example, you've basically single-handedly educated me about the flaws of replacement theology. I appreciate you for that. Don't presume to know me so well. You'll just have to trust me on this...its my style of writing nothing more. We both know that if I want to say something arrogant or inappropriate to someone I'm generally stoopid enough to shove my foot down my throat and do it. No, it was more the fact that you simply didn't know the material. You had no idea that "G" was dismissed from the Shin Bet. You had no idea that Yousef had said some of the things I posted (context or not, he said those things). And you had no idea that some people were criticizing him for anti-semitic and pro-hamas statements. I'm certain you haven't even read the book because those sentiments jump off the page in spots. You didn't seem to have any clue about the gov'ts position on the routine hearing and their all but apologizing for it coming to that. Its not about being a know-it-all...its about having a discussion with someone who doesn't know any of the details and they are consistently arguing that you are wrong about details they didn't even know existed. You didn't reach any conclusions in this discussion based on prior research...in fact, the only conclusion you reached at all was after I led you to the info in the first place. Any other conclusions you reached were about me, and what I was thinking and why I alledgedly didn't like the guy at all. Who knew you could be so gracious to a guy who says terrorists are victims. I mean, of course, we should pray that he comes to understand that children don't grow up to be terrorists simply because they grow up under Israeli oppression and violence...I just can't imagine what kind of hell you would unleash on a person if they said that in a thread on these forums...lol. But I suppose spending a few days defending the guy before you realize he had these sentiments, softens the heart. You're Welcome...because I am certain that without my research into the man, you wouldn't have known that you would like to distance yourself from him. thanks btw...now you've got me all self-conscious about my "lols" and "!!!"

wildlife apocalypse! rofl! I'm sorry...i just don't get it...any of it.

Ohhhh...so it just comes down to a difference of definitions of the words...lol!!! Well, I think its sensational for him to state, and reiterate, that Shin Bet thought he was a genius (and he was serious cuz he said so) and so they did whatever he wanted and worked for him. Define it how you want...its pretty over-the-top. But hey, it sells books. Don't care if you don't like my writing style...it hasn't changed...and it wont. People don't like that i use "..." instead of commas either...lol!!!! Actually, I find it hard to believe that you researched. If you had, then I don't think you would like him as much...and you'd quit saying that I dislike him. Fact is, you are just wrong. You keep saying I don't like him because of his views on Islam. I think that he is pretty dead-on about Islam...but he has incredible compassion for those entangled in it (as I do.) That makes me like him. However, he says some pretty weird things about Israel that give me pause. He is pretty critical of Israel...and if you researched like you claim you'd know that he accuses Israel of being occupiers, and killing innocent children. Even his book (which I'm guessing you haven't read...lol) says this stuff. You are generally more of the Robert Spencer and Pamela Gellar crowd...if you had researched AT ALL you'd have found that even Gellar and Spencer are "distancing" themselves from what they call Mosab's anti-semitic rhetoric. But hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...maybe your softening up a bit. ...and the hits just keep on coming...hehe

Asking you to source your claims is not lazy on my part. I am simply interested in reviewing your sources. You may have access to sources I am unware of. Simply because I am not privy to every source you have may simply because my search engines have different information than yours or I simply didn't put in the right words. Do you need a tissue? Yeah, it would be so much easier if we would just take everything you say and assume you are right on every point, never challenge you or ask you to cite your source for your claims. If the board members were willing to be cowed by your "anybody who disagrees with me is an idiot" attitude, it would be so much more pleasant for you, wouldn't it? Let's examine those "crazy" remarks: Context, context contex. Yousef did not say Shin Bet worked for him. Here is the context of those remarks: AMANPOUR: How was working for Shin Bet stopping killings of Palestinians? YOUSEF: First of all, as a Shin Bet agent, when I had information about someone, that helped arresting them. When the Shin Bet didn't have information who carried the attack, they had to hit randomly without -- it's not -- they didn't have specific targets. But when I specified that this person is responsible for that thing, and I had a condition that you don't kill that person -- I remember once I had five suicide bombers in one place, and Ariel Sharon decided to drop a bomb on them, and I said, "I cannot kill them, first, as a Christian, second, as a Palestinian, those are my people, and those people don't understand what they're doing." Nobody did this in the Shin Bet. And this will show you that I wasn't working for the Shin Bet agenda. In fact, Shin Bet worked for my agenda. Yousef had a pre-condition in place as part of his participation with Shin Bet, namely that they would not torture or murder the people his information helped to capture. In that sense, Shin Bet was working for "his agenda." He did not claim they were working for him, personally, but that they agreed to allow him to work for them on his terms. What was really said: AMANPOUR: What was their response when you said, "Give me information. I can help you"? YOUSEF: They didn't want to get involved. They were afraid, simply. AMANPOUR: Did Shin Bet let you down somehow? YOUSEF: To be honest with you, I maintained very strong position inside the Shin Bet. I mentioned something to you, I don't know if you take it seriously or not. I said that the Shin Bet worked for my agendas, and they really did. AMANPOUR: Did they know they were doing that? YOUSEF: In the -- directly they would think, "OK, this guy's genius, you know? He's like just doing whatever he wants to do," because I was working with lots of conditions. And I remember once they told me, "We don't work with anybody with conditions." I told them, "OK, then goodbye." And they didn't want to lose me. They had no other option. I'm not telling you that there are lots of Hamas people who work with the Shin Bet or even Palestinians. But there are technologies, there are lots of sophisticated devices today that -- even the Mossad was discovered with every move they did in Dubai by police, not by intelligence. Today -- so think about organized governmental organization. Again, I fail to see the "outlandish" nature of his statement. He is relating the words of some people in Shin Bet and it reads more like they were being sarcastic. Mosaub is not claiming to be a genius or that people saw him as a "genius" in the absolute sense. "AMANPOUR: How does it feel never to be able to go back? Or do you think you can one day go back to the Palestinian territory? YOUSEF: Who told you that I can't go back? I think, with my experience, I can live in my own town and nobody will know that I'm living there, if I want to." What was really said: AMANPOUR: How does it feel never to be able to go back? Or do you think you can one day go back to the Palestinian territory? YOUSEF: Who told you that I can't go back? AMANPOUR: Well, I'm -- it seems extraordinary if you could tell all this story and describe all these things that you say that you've done and then want to go back into Palestinian territory. YOUSEF: I think, with my experience, I can live in my own town and nobody will know that I'm living there, if I want to. AMANPOUR: Because you're so good at disguising and faking your experience? YOUSEF: I don't want to say that I'm so good, but if I want to go back, I will go back. AMANPOUR: We talked a little bit about it before, but I want to ask you again. It's one thing to turn your back on your own father. YOUSEF: I didn't turn my back on my own father. I saved his life. Today he's disowning me while I saved his life. My dad would be killed. When the Israeli cabinets send the pictures and the names of people who would be assassinated, the Shin Bet tried to hide my dad's picture so they don't hurt my feelings to tell me that our prime minister wants your dad dead. And I said, it doesn't matter. It's not about my dad. It's about everybody on the list. Let's arrest them. Let's put them in prison. I was willing to put my dad in prison to get him away from trouble. I saved his life. He would be -- he was an easy target. I fail to see the "outlandishness" of what you cite when placed in context of the interview in what preceded and followed his remarks about returning to the territories. If he returns at a time and manner of his choosing, he believes he can avoid being spotted by those who would kill him. Being deported would not have afforded him that option. Again, none what you claim to be "crazy" or "sensationalized" is any thing of the sort. YOU the one making more of it than what is there and you misrepsented him and assigned values that are not present to anyone who reads his words in an unprejudiced manner. LOLOL!!! Moments after you read the words for the first time...thank you for reposting an interview that I have seen and read many times. You can try and re-state and re-define his words ANY WAY YOU WANT...it doesn't change what he said...and plainly reiterated just in case you missed it the first time...now you want to pretend that he was trying to relay their sarcasm??? Oh your funny! He plainly said those things and reiterated it because "I don't know if you take it seriously or not..." He was being serious!!! You dug a hole defending the sensational nature of the comments he made while trying to sell a book! I said it before...you are his audience. He was looking for people that wouldn't dig too deep and would believe everything he said. You're that guy. In this case it would have saved you some time...lol. Face it, you got pwned in this convo. You were defending a guy on a topic that you hadn't even researched. win some...lose some...all in good fun I hope!

"And this will show you that I wasn't working for the Shin Bet agenda. In fact, Shin Bet worked for my agenda... I don't know if you take it seriously or not. I said that the Shin Bet worked for my agendas, and they really did... directly they would think, "OK, this guy's genius, you know? He's like just doing whatever he wants to do," "AMANPOUR: How does it feel never to be able to go back? Or do you think you can one day go back to the Palestinian territory? YOUSEF: Who told you that I can't go back? I think, with my experience, I can live in my own town and nobody will know that I'm living there, if I want to." source

Oh geez...sometimes it sux being right. Then you have to do all the work that others were too lazy or simply not smart enough to do for themselves. I GUARANTEE you didn't even try because a chimp coulda googled this stuff! And then...if you get fed up with doing every other persons homework (as I have in the past) and try to make them do it for themselves...they foolishly assume you are wrong or a liar just making stuff up. Second time in this thread i've had to source info that is readily..and easily...available. Good grief...gimme 10 minutes!

Since I am not confused at all, I feel pretty confident that I have pwned this topic...lol. Let me try this. My former comments were based on the over-the-top statements presented by Mosab Yousef in the OP of that thread. My current comments are based on the facts, as they have been learned since that time. The one thing that has remained consistent (and which you consistently ignore) is that I was clear in my previous comments and in my later comments that it was not my intent to judge his salvation or call him a liar. In spite of that consistency you still are operating under the false "impression" that I was judging him and/or calling him a liar in teh previous thread...

Like I said...you clearly don't even know who you're defending and every single one of these responses is evidence of that. I take it by your responses that you would find the statements made by Yousef outlandish and sensationalistic. If the gov't had witnesses and evidence that Mosab was a terrorist he wouldn't have been surfing, writing books, blogging, and doing interview after interview all over tv...he would have been where every other terrorist is that they have witnesses and evidence against. Heck, they lock up suspected terrorists all the time...but you want us to believe that if the gov't had it out for this guy with witnesses and evidence that he would have been allowed to keep right on truckin'. Thats simply not logical. It wasn't logical to believe that a routine hearing...that the gov't all but apologized for having to conduct...was anything more than a formality. The ONLY reason anyone (myself included) thought that the gov't might have something on him, or something against him...is because of his over-the-top reaction to a routine hearing.

HAHAHAHA!!! Maybe I'm just easy to entertain...lol. Granted they weren't the best movies ever, but I was entertained by them....and I've seen quite a few that were waaaayyyy worse.

I think every director has his yawners. M. Night is no exception. However, the Sixth Sense was a great movie, imo. I also enjoyed Signs and The Village. For my money...M. Night is creative enough to get me to the theater. He's worth the risk..hehe.

Of course...because accepting my explanation would mean accepting that I wasn't attacking or judging him or his salvation. Those comments from the other thread were made after reading a blog by Mosab claiming that the gov't was out to get him. I was merely saying that maybe the gov't knew something we didn't and that we should look closely at anyone who claims to be a former terrorist and suddenly wants to be friends. The fact is, the gov't wasn't out to get him and that he wasn't the threat that he was pretending the gov't thought he was. At worst I am guilty for thinking its okay for the gov't to scrutinize former terrorists. I made it clear in that other thread that I was not calling him a liar or judging his salvation...but you chose to ignore that because it undermined the impression you were trying to shape of my comments.

Once again you are having a discussion about a subject that you clearly haven't researched. C'mon bro...at least do some research. He totally 007'd himself! This guy says all kinds of crazy stuff. Even some of his public supporters and people who are knowledgable on the workings of Israeli Intelligence say that he exaggerated and sensationalized his story...but they accept it because they know he's also trying to sell a book. I said HE hyped up and sensationalized the story of his deportation. I never said it was the biggest story in America. If anything, all you are arguing is that he wasn't very good at drawing attention to his cause. I happen to disagree because I think he is very good at it. He is a very likeable and charismatic...plus his story (and situation) are fantastic. He had members of congress, major news commentaries, and international media attention because of his efforts. I'd say thats pretty successful. Eh...I think you just dislike me and want to paint everything I say in a negative way. I've given him plenty of credit (which you conveniently ignore) and haven't called him a liar. Well lets make this easy then. You 100% believe that Shin Bet worked for Mosab? That they thought "this guy is a genius" and gave him the run of the place working for him under his direction? You also believe that Mosab is so experienced as a spy that he could return to his hometown in Palestine and live safely? Since you seem so opposed to using logic to form opinions on these things...then I look forward to you providing "actual evidence" for believing Mosab Yousef's claims. C'mon Mr "actual evidence"... There is/was NO evidence at all that this was anything more than a routine hearing required by law. There was NO evidence that the gov't at ANY level was out to get him. Name ONE branch of gov't, heck ONE person in gov't that came out against this guy publicly. NOT ONE!! LoL! I feel like I just watched a game between an NFL team and a high school team and the scoreboard shows 100-0 just like any logically thinking person would expect...and your tellng me that just because the game was played that it could have turned out either way. Again...you are misrepresenting my views. Your repeated attempts to lie about me and draw me into a fight are not working. So please stop trying. Again, not true. I merely said it was okay for the gov't to scrutinize anyone from the enemy claiming to be friendly...just like they did during the Cold War when being a communist defector was all the rage. Just because a former terrorist shows up claiming to be a pro-american christian doesn't mean we should just believe them...as you guys have said numerous times...extremist Islam teaches that it is okay to lie to your enemies. At the time when I had made those statements we were discussing the wild claims made by Mosab Yousef on his website that the gov't was out to get him and that he was going to be deported. All I said was that maybe the gov't knows something we don't about his claims to be a good guy. As it turns out, the reason for ANY confusion was Mosab himself, as the gov't clearly wasn't out to get him as he had claimed.

Totally agree MG. I would have pulled out all the stops. I don't blame the guy at all. That doesn't make any of his outlandish claims about being deported true...it just means he was willign to do or say anything to drum up support. He is really good at it and he has the resources so why not use them.

Completely untrue. Non-Christian groups/organizations have been litigated against for many of the same reasons as Christian groups. Everytime their is a ruling against a Christian group doesn't mean that their is some type of religious persecution going on. Remember the story of the boy who cried wolf....

WHAT!?!?! I never said he was lying...in fact, isn't it curious that you forgot to post that comment from the thread. I have said in this thread, that thread, and any other thread that I don't judge his salvation. I even said that in the quote you posted. I wouldn't have prayed for him and sat next to my computer watching the live feed this AM if I thought he was a liar and a deceiver. I am however, suspicious of people claiming to be former extremists muslims and terrorists and now want to be our friends .. especially when the bulk of their story is based on the premise that they were lying to the terrorists in order to spy on them. The point of that thread was whether the gov't was right to be suspicious of him...and clearly ANYONE in that position should be thoroughly vetted. ...and even all the way back then I was right about this hearing being nothing but alot of hype invented by him...lol.

oh...big shocker there! lol

By definition...he did exploit his story. Maybe you could explain how he didn't. I think his story is great...I think he is a fascinating person who is a hero. I don't think he walks on water and and I don't have some crazy need to believe everything he says is 100% accurate. He is selling books and he is telling a sensational story in an exaggerated way...and even his many supporters admit that publicly. If you don't know that then maybe you don't know as much about him as you think. I think the sensational way he 'exploited' this deportation story is evidence that is true. Told everyone so...actually...that this was a non-story and that there was no chance he would be deported. He, and he alone, hyped up this story through his blog. This would have been a complete non-story if he hadn't made it one. I never said it was a major story...but he still overhyped it, got international attention, and did multiple interviews on national tv saying he was afraid for his life (which, btw, flies in the face of his earlier claims that he was so experienced as a spy that he could live in his hometown in Palestine...lol.) drama, drama, drama. Of course it wasn't front page drama...lol! Why would it be? How have I discredited him? I think he is very good at what he does. I've said he is a hero and brave. I fully support his efforts to sell books. Of course I wouldn't post anything about him if people weren't so susceptible to believe every word that drops out of his mouth as if it were gold. Just like all of you believed he was on the verge of deportation and death...lol. Seriously! What gave you that impression? Oh, thats right...he did. He was the ONLY person saying everything reported in the media. In the meantime, those more logical and not so moved by sensationalism, believed that everything would play out exactly as it did...a 15 minute hearing with ZERO opposition from the gov't in giving this man asylum in the United States. I will be honest though...my faith faltered a bit. It took about an hour before the news of what happened in the hearing broke. I was thinking to myself, "Self, this shouldn't be taking so long." Fortunately, it was just a case of the media being slow...whew! lol (btw, yes that means i was watching the live news feeds for an hour while praying for my brother) LOL...your still buying the hype. How could he "just as easily" have been deported? How was that gonna happen exactly? Was it the ZERO witnesses testimony? Was it the ZERO gov't objections? Was it the evidence against him provided during the lengthy 15 minute routine, legally required, hearing? The gov't was basically apologizing long before the hearing began that it had gotten this far...but that the hearing was legally required. The ONLY reason you believe he was in any danger whatsoever is because Yousef made you believe it! In the meantime...before the hearing he and his friend ("G") were laughing all morning before the hearing (you can look at the photos yourself) as they prepared for a routine hearing that could "just as easily" have led to his deportation and death...lol! Of course, we should always give glory to God...even in simple matters such as this.

Isn't the University a gov't institution? There is nothing saying that the group can't meet and be exclusive apart from the University. However, if the University is funded by gov't money (as admitted in the article) then it should be open to all taxpayers equally.