Axxman

The problem is... the state of humanity today has made spanking completely unreliable as a form of discipline. My dad was spanked, my mom was never spanked. Both grew up to be amazing parents and servants of Christ. Child abuse is rampant, as is neglect. Parents don't have much restraint...and the CHURCH has largely failed in the training of proper discipline. I challenge you to ask ANY police officer what his response would be if he went to a domestic abuse call and found a child with bruises from spankings. It sickens me that the church has allowed this type of abuse to foster because they have REFUSED to look at common sense. The "rod of correction" that child abusers love to toss around as an excuse to beat their kids with anything from straps of leather (belts) to pieces of wood...is a HORRIBLY mistaken theology. First of all there are about 8-10 different meanings for the word "rod" in the O.T. The word means everything from a shepherds pole, to an arrow's shaft, to a tribe of people. Ironically, nobody ever says "Hey, lets have the tribe (community) help us with the discipline." NO, good Christians of the world go right to "lets beat them with a shepherds pole!!" Maybe you should all go watch a Shepherd in action. He doesn't beat the sheep with the pole! When one of the sheep begins to get off-course he uses the pole to guide them back. If one of the sheep is REALLY bad ad takes off running...the shepherd doesn't chase him down and beat him with the rod until he goes back. No, the shepherd will actually pick the sheep up and carry him if he has to...but most likely a gentle prodding from the "rod" will guide the sheep back into correction. I think it is a horribly failed idea to hit your kids. Worse, there is absolutely NO evidence that spanking makes kids turn out better, or worse. I understand the idea behind spanking, and I believe that it can be done with "loving intentions." Unfortunately, because of the VERY FEW parents that actually hold to that we have an epidemic of child abuse due to spanking in our culture. Be like the shepherd...find a way to guide your kids without hitting them.

This is already a topic in "Controversial Issues" with lots of people making valid points. DO you drink? Link to other thread I would say that it is NOT okay to drink. There is little, if any, evidence that Jesus drank alcohol. There are LOTS of warnings about the dangers of alcohol. Also, the alcohol content in most of todays beverages is so high that even a small amount (4 oz.) of wine will begin to have immediate effects on a person without them even knowing it. I believe that the social consumption of alcohol is a sin. I am neutral about drinking in the privacy of your own home.

I firmly believe that God allows certain gov't for certain reasons. I believe God allows communism, I don't know why, but he does. The same way He allowed Pharoah to rule over His people the Israelites. God admittedly hardened Pharoah's heart so that He could show His power. I don't always understand why God allows the things He does...but I am quite certain he allows it. I also NEVER said that "everything they do is for my own good." Thats simply not true. I don't think Social Security is run for my own good. I don't think the tax system is run for my own good. But I DO THINK that I am obligated to obey the system that God has put me in. Romans 13:5,6 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience

Stephen Collins Foster wrote "Oh Susanna" in the mid 1800's. He also wrote notably un-christian songs such as "Open your Lattice my Love." Trivia bonus: A couple of lines of Oh Susanna have been changed or removed since Mr Foster died. The original lines "And killed 500 niggers" and "Dis Darkie will surely die" were removed. While I'm not sure that songs from the 1800's are fair game in this convo...it sure was nice of you to throw in ANOTHER good example of secular music.

You sound so worried. I pray you find peace in this life. I look forward to reading what else you have to say about my comments. In the meantime...how is Hosea 8:4 in any way proof that God is not in control of gov'ts. First, Hosea is a VERY metaphorical writer. He often doesn't even string thoughts along in any sort of cadence (i.e. one thought is not related to the next.) What Hosea is describing is the very hand of God at work in setting up the leadership he desires. God had promised the leadership to the lineage of King David and the people revolted and tried to set up their own gov't by replacing Rehoboam (Solomon's son) with Jeroboam, a man of their chosing, outside the lineage of David. Here's were it gets a little tricky with Hosea. God appointed Jeroboam, yes the SAME Jeroboam that Hosea seems to imply God was clueless about. Well, if there is one thing we know about God, he ain't clueless. This is what the Lord told Jeroboam: I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel. And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee, I Kings 11:37-38. So what is Hosea rambling about??? You actually nailed it. Free will. Hosea was being a bit liberal with his writing style (as he is throughout Hosea.) Its not that God was clueless about Jeroboam's kingship...it was that it was not what God intended for His people. But God allowed it, and God actually gave Jeroboam free reign. What upset God so much in Hosea is that Jeroboam went and started worshipping false gods right away (golden calves). If you read the next verse, Hosea 8:5, you will see that I am correct in linking the two. Hosea 8:5 Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity? As you can plainly see. God was in complete control and allowed the leadership that they had chosen. God was not blind-folded. He let them have their way and as soon as they messed it up, he put them back on course. God was always in control of the established gov't. As you correctly said (albeit for different reasons) Hosea 8 does have implications for Romans 13.

Alrighty guys... Maybe I misrepresented my views. I'm not sure what happened, but I am not actually disagreeing with alot of what you guys say. Sure, I disagree somewhat, but thats just normal. Vickilynn I find myself agreeing with you ALOT...you seem to have it right, and I can't really argue with what you are saying. Since the onset of this discussion my ONLY intent was to encourage people to support Christian music MORE. I wish Christians would not buy secular music, and instead buy Christian. Now in trying to make my point, I gave several examples, which I admitted made me sound a bit legalistic. I am not trying to be a legalistic, stuck-in-the-mud kinda guy. I just want people to be aware of what they are supporting and maybe inspire a change of heart in regards to Christian music. Why do percieve that a change of perception is needed? Good question. What really got me going on this was the two links at the top of this thread. The persons involved had some VERY negative words about Christian music (and some people I know and have met, and have worked with.) This bothered me. Compounded with some of the discussions in this thread about secular music, I just wanted to put a positive spin on the Christian industry vs. secular. I stand by my claim that there are NO secular artists out there that accurately represent what we as Christians should look for in our entertainment choices. But I have said again, and again, and again, that those are personal choices between you and God. I am okay with that. Cobalt...it was not my intention to try and pass judgement on you, or anyone. If it came across that way, I apologize. If you listen to Christian music 80% of the time, that is awesome. Thats all I I've been trying to say. Support fellow believers more than secular artists. I listened to secular artists for many years...even when I worked in Christian music. There just came a time for me when I noticed a disparity amongst Christians concerning secualr artists, and it bothered me. In my life, I am very extreme. Its either hot or cold. Yes or no. On or Off. Its almost like a competitive thing in me. But thats just me, and I accept that not everyone is like that. I will always try and persuade Christians to be 100% against non-christian artists...and support Christian music. What you do is up to you. Vickilynn...Should my family ever be honored enough to meet you and your family...you can leave the music on. I am not that bad

My wife persued me. She was a non-christian, and I was NOT interested. There were so many things about her that I didn't want in a friend...let alone a wife. She was a drug addicted, single-mom, who'd been arrested. She was in a gang, and was in multiple fights. I laughed that she even thought I would sink that low. However...I was a Christian, so I did have an interest in seeing her life change. I began witnessing to her. Whenever I saw her (which wasn't that often) I made sure she saw at least a glimpse of my faith in Christ. On an honest note...she was so messed up I didn't think it would matter, and I had NO interest in "hanging out" with her. One day she shows up at my work. I'm thinking "STALKER!!!" She tells me she's getting married..I tell her congrats and see you later. A bit curious about the guy she's marrying, I used my contacts to look him up. I expected a gang-banger punk. Instead...it was a guy with a record for child molestation...and a warrant for his arrest. I drove nearly 100 miles to the "area" she lived (area is a better description than town) and asked around until I found her. Needless to say...she was stunned that I was "stalking" her now...lol. We went for a short walk and I told her about the fiance...shockingly she already knew about him. She started crying and telling me that she was so confused and that this wasn't the life she planned. I again shared with her about Christ, and I offered to find her a place to stay through my church. She said she couldn't leave because she had a "coke deal" to run that afternoon (I'm not even joking...I wanted to run away right then.) I told her that she had to make a decision...I wasn't gonna offer again. She basically told me we were being watched and that we'd have to sneak away fast. We casually walked to my car, and she left EVERYTHING behind. Unfortunately, some guys saw our getaway and we were literally chased by guys with guns running behind my car. When we got to my place, she sat on the couch crying. She thanked me for helping her, and asked if I would help her pray. After the day we had I wasn't expecting that. It was an unbelievable JOY to explain the gift of salvation, and to pray with her. It was more exciting to see the dramatic changes in her life. She asked me to go to parenting classes with her so she could start the process of getting her daughter back from CPS. Which I did. I often tease her that she entrapped me with "the daughter" cuz she was so adorable. She doesn't deny it Nine years and counting...Praise God!!

I am not trying to change people's convictions as much as I'm trying to encourage them to purchase and support their fellow Christians in ministry. I don't know the first thing about Toto or F-Mac so thats up to you. I think I would be very surprised if they did not have some ungodly lyrics or lifestyles that you support by purchasing their music, but again, thats up to you. I would like to think that you could be just as passionate about Christian music as you are about Toto. I don't see how my view on secular music translates to how I purchase other things. Music, art, movies are forms of entertainment. Music is spoken of throughout the Bible as a way to praise and worship our Saviour. If I am going to buy a form of entertainment then I want to be entertained by things that uplift me. As I said before, its also about the influence that you promote when you purchase secular music. Now when I buy a car, I don't see the car dealership as having a secular influence...while they may employ secular minded people...their influnce is selling cars, not a secular lifestyle. However, in my town we have one of those car dealership owners that is "everywhere"...biggest car-dealer in town and he is popular. He sells all types, but mostly Chevy. My mom worked in his office. One day he pops up on the news saying he is a homosexual. Because of his popularity, he was now becoming a secular influence. He is known as much for selling cars, as he is for "being brave" for coming out. I won't buy a car there, and my mom quit working for him. I rather pay more for a car than support his business. In our city we have a Christian Business Directory. Its far from foolproof, but I often look up businesses for services out of that directory simply because I feel better supporting a fellow believer. In regards to my entertainment choices...I am VERY pro-christian because Christians tend to provide the type of entertainment my soul craves....and secular, non-christians, do not. Just did a quick google on toto lyrics..."She knows the Devil, and the Devil knows me." That was a quick search too. I could go deeper, but for me thats enough to remove the music from my home.

Shalom Axxman, The point is, you don't know if Alan Jackson is a Christian or not. Simply because he does not record all Christian music does not mean he does not have a relationship with Jesus and he himself is a Christian. That is the point of the question about knowing his heart. You cannot judge someone's salvation by what type of music they record. There are plenty of artists that record secular music and they are Christians. There are plenty of artists that record Christian music that are not Christians. I have no problem with anything you said. I think that we should support Christians in ministry more than we support non-christians. We are talking about entertainment here. I choose entertainment that is in line with my spiritual beliefs. I won't support Christians who won't proclaim Christ...and I won't Support Christians who show no fruit. However, instead of digging, and digging, trying to find those guys who are Christians in disguise...we should be supporting people who are proudly and loudly praising OUR Saviour with music. We should at least be supporting them more than the "other guys."

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Face recognition is in its very young stages...everyone agrees on that. I also don't believe that ONE person has ever been arrested because of facial recognition software. Lastly..and this is important...it is pretty much universally understood that this software is nothing more than a tool. This tool is not going to do anything except try and recognize faces. It will still be up to police to contact and verify the actual identity of suspects. So you would rather a child molester roam freely on the streets...a murderer...a thief...a thug. What is the harm in adding a new tool to the shed? Are you also against fingerprinting? I can tell you that the government "trawls" through millions of fingerprints too. You should see the new technology. I am a livescan operator and it is pretty rare that a person doesn't marvel at the technology the first time they see it. New technology to keep us safer, and my children and their descendants. I don't believe that worry about the future is productive or scriptural. Jesus told us not to worry about tomorrow because today has problems all its own.

LOL...I enjoyed your explanation of my mistaken quote. Maybe subconsciously I do care a bit and it just came out on my keyboard... Scott Thurston's site is the one I spent alot of time at. The J.A.I.L website didn't have anything about Scott on it, so I didn't see the association. The Jail4Judges legislation was beaten badly in South Dakota...what I should have said is that no judges have been jailed because of that legislation. However, it is possible that the people related to JAIL have had private success. I just found Scott's website hard to navigate, and I couldn't find the specific things you had mentioned. I am really interested in finding out more about this ban on traffic tickets...I find that so hard to believe considering my law enforcement background. <---- thats the part where you understand why I say the things I say

Hiya Ronald...as usual I will try to give my best, honest answer. NO WAY, do I claim to know the hearts, minds, or souls of every persons music I buy. I've also said that I have certainly been duped by the "I'm a Christian" tag used by some musicians. I've got no shame in admitting that. I can only be responsible for my actions. When I purchase music it is my intention to support persons who say they accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. I WISH more Christians felt the need to support them often. However, when I later find out that they are not acting out in a Christian way...that ends my desire to financially support their ministry. Don't have to know his heart. He is NOT a Christian artist, nor does he claim to be. He did an album of old church hyms, not because of his depth faith...but for his mom. I suppose some people think its pretty awesome that just any 'ol person can sing Jesus songs and make millions of dollars, while people who lift their voices to the Lord daily get little support...even from their own brothers and sisters in Christ. Randy Travis on the other hand has worn his Christianity on his sleeve for quite some time. He is a "real" Christian artist. Randy Travis does NOT sing secular music, but he does work within the secular music industry. He also has a Christian music record label. Randy Travis does NOT sing songs of a secular nature, although he has in the past. I think it is debateable on whether or not secular music (un-christian) is evil. Hmmm...do I consider a drug addicted, alcoholic, who beats his wife ungodly? Okay, you got me. I don't care what he wrote...I wouldn't support his music or his lifestyle in ANY way. Can ANYONE write a Jesus flavored tune and you guys will drink it? Is there no limit, or boundary, or standard? If Korn released a Jesus tune, but kept on with their drug induced, womanizing, binge drinking...would you be out buying their music and singing hallelujah. I doubt it. However, when Brian Welch became a Christian he left that Band and became a different person...you could see God in his life. Thats what you should be supporting. I am truly blown away by the support of non-christian music here at Worthy. I won't be judgemental because you all have to reconcile your choices with God. All I'm saying is that you should all, as Christians, be on the forefront of promoting music that is written, and performed by people who proclaim Jesus as their Saviour. Since the moment I suggested supporting Christian music over secular I have received nothing but excuses as to why non-christian (i.e. secular) music isn't all that bad. I've even gone so far as to suggest that "maybe" there is a secular musician that isn't writing bad music or living a bad lifestyle...but not one person has shown them to me. In fact, all I've discovered is that perhaps one Christian artist isn't what he claims to be.

Leonard...first I wanna apologize. I didn't realize you actually knew these people and it was not my intent to call you a liar or anything like that. I thought you were just relaying a story you'd heard...thats why I said it sounded like an urban legend. Just for the record...JAIL4Judges has not put ANY judges in jail. It was resoundingly defeated by the state of South Dakota 89%-11%, in November. The people who run JAIL are pretty much thought of as conspiratorial wacko's. They have almost ZERO credibility. He was arrested for attempted burglary and served 6 days in jail, during which time he was unccoperative and was tased. You know these people? I didn't see anything on the website that really stood out about drivers license law. I just spent about 2 hours reading over a unch of stuff on that site, and I disagreed with MUCH of it. He is obviously anti-police/law enforcement. I have a serious issue with that. He also claims to have the cure for Cancer, Heart Disease and other degenerative diseases. He is generous enough to sell the book to "members" for ONLY the cost of lab work. I saw no claims that he cannot be pulled over in Arizona while driving. It was more like reading a sales pitch with a bunch of liberty and freedom quotes thrown in. More than anything, my impression of this guy is that he works to get guilty criminals out of jail. He finds some obscure technicality and runs with it wasting, who knows how, much gov't money with all his senseless appeals...just so he can get a murderer (its on his website), a DUI, an assault, etc...out of jail. It seems 50% of his website is devoted to selling his natural healing aids. I just don't get it.

I believe I have the "right" to serve God to the best of my ability based on what He has given me. I don't have the "right" to say what I want, because I am bound by my resposibility to God. The same goes for all the other so-called rights. American Christians are so spoiled. God has blessed me with the opportunity to serve His will in America, and part of that is to respect the government he has placed before me. If you were in China or Cuba I could spare you a little grief with the gov't. How about some real-world stats on the number of people who are wrongly arrested because of facial recognition miscues, rather than a blanket statement used as a scare tactic. Better yet, back up the idea that many people "lose a great deal of money" or get regularly "beaten" in jail too. I'll bet those numbers are FAR LOWER than you suspect. I am NOT scared of the gov't. My life is in God's hands. Do you realize how many Christians are beaten and jailed in this world simply for professing the name of Jesus? And you wanna worry about the ultra-slim chance of having your drivers license picture being recognized by facial recognition technology? I am simply not that worried about it...The bible clearly has a policy about not worrying about what 'might' happen tomorrow.

Nice one Vickilynn!!! I haven't heard that song in years. That is one bad thing about the Christian music industry. Secular music pays homage to the greats of the past by re-re-re-releasing the classics. Most Christian musicians, no matter how great, are forgotten and not really looked on as much. Just fade away.

I could care less about this kinda stuff. The gov't can look at my face all day long if they want. I have no problem getting a drivers license or following BASIC safety laws for the betterment of EVERYONE on the streets. This deal about two Arizona guys sounds more like an Urban Legend. I don't thinks its true. I happen to know that Arizona has a high arrest rate for Driving on a suspended license...so it seems unlikely that two guys could just do whatever they want.

1) The "news" is difficult, as are other topics. There is the "news" then there is "opinion." I try to catch the news, but when the news becomes opinion, I tune out. I rarely watch the news channels because they are all about opinions of the news and rarely actually try to put out an un-bias view of the news. Newspapers are okay as long as I don't linger in the op-ed pages cuz again those are mostly opinions of the news. Usually, if its not a headline on the opening page of the internet, I'll not know about it until later. 2) I wouldn't support Phil Keaggy by buying his "tribute" to the Beatles. That is very disappointing to me, BUT it doesn't make him a non-christian. I would hope that he makes better decisions in the future regarding the type of music he "tributes." Of course, now I've had to do some looking into Keaggy because I need to know what I'm supporting. I was disappointed to find this..."When I think of gospel music, I think of spreading the Good News with words. But maybe it's just because I was heralded once upon a time as one of theirs. I guess if he's not "one of us" anymore he can forget about getting "some of mine"...no matter how talented he is. What a bummer! 3) This should probably be discussed in a different topic. I don't have to be friends, or hang out, with unbelievers to fulfill the Great Commission. In fact, I've found that the more I "preach the good news" and put myself out as a "booster for Jesus"...the less they want to have to do with me. I am not unpleasant to them, its just amutual acknowledgement that there is no common ground between us. In my opinion, that alone is how I show the light. For example, a guy at work told me "its too bad you don't party cuz a few of us are going out this weekend and it would be cool if you came with us." I politely declined and told him if they wanted to hang out I'd be going to church that weekend and it would be cool to see them there. A polite chuckle between us...and done. I've been to the "darkness." In fact, I was rescued from it. I don't plan on going back there for a second. Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so] That hostility towards God is also called enmity. Enmity is defined as "a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism." This is the state of the carnal mind (i.e. non-believers) towards God. The bible also teaches that ANYONE who wishes to have friendship with those who are in enmity with God...are also enemies of God. "Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4) Again, this is a topic that should probably take place somewhere else, but since I brought it up I feel required to answer. My biggest issue when coming to this topic was that people understand that we should be supporting our Brothers and Sisters in ministry more than we support non-christians. I was taken aback by the VERY insulting statements on the provided links about Christian musicians.

I don't buy Christian products to make religion a business. I buy it because I like to surround myself and my surroundings with things that remind me of Christ, my salvation, and my responsibilities. Quite frankly, I don't get that by listening to Zeppelin and having Stephen King on the bookshelf. I wear as many Christian t-shirts as possible, and recently bought my first pair of Ezekiel Jeans...bit more expensive than Levi's, but who cares. There is NOTHING wrong with making money as a Christian, as long as you honor God in that blessing. Personally, I wish more companies would listen to you and realize there is a market for Christian products, because quite frankly, I feel the worldliness in our times is just about over-cooked. I agree with you, this is the main reason we're not quite seeing eye-to-eye on this. Personally, I think thats okay. I realize that I sound a bit legalistic and overboard. That is not my intention, and I try to not be jugemental about it. Once you guys get to know me, you'll find this is a recurring theme with me in most area's of my life. I am very pro-Christian. I don't care how much "good" non-christians do because "their righteousness is like filthy rags." You'd think that what little good they do would matter, but it doesn't. I find it interesting that you say "some of the kindest people you know are non-christians." I can't really echo that sentiment because I don't really know any non-christians, nor do I care too. I have NOTHING in common with them. I can't hang out with non-christians because ultimately they can't discuss the things I like to discuss. They usually want to discuss the worldly things that appeal to them, and I just wanna share Jesus with them. I just wind up being that "Jesus guy" that doesn't get invited back to the barbeque. Honestly, thats okay by me. I enjoy Worthy because I can talk to people who have the same passion for Christ as I do (in most cases) and I LOVE THAT! I would rather talk about stuff like this all day long with fellow Brothers and Sisters than talk to my neighbor about whatever worldly garbage he's involved in. I don't need people to agree with my position on music, politics, sports, or science. Just tell me you have an interest in growing spiritually and fellowshipping and I'll talk your ear off.

Dylan's dead? When did that happen? Phil Keaggy does secular music. You should be ashamed of yourself supporting such an evil product. Hmmm...the last photo I saw of Dylan...he certainly looked dead Regarding Phil Keaggy... A) He's a Christian, who has written some VERY beautiful music. As a Christian I am not supporting secualr musicians by supporting Phil Keaggy, I am supporting a Christian artist. B) If Phil Keaggy does secular music I wouldn't know it because I don't buy or listen to secular music. You'll have to enlighten me on this so called "worldly" music that Keaggy is involved with. Wouldn't be the first time that somebody duped me with the "I'm a Christian musician" claim. I can only be responsible for my intentions, and my intentions are good...even when I buy Phil Keaggy's music.

Okay...since it seems I am pretty much the ONLY one here in favor of anti-secularism (or at least defending it) I hope you all bear with me as I try to answer you. I think I have been somewhat misunderstood...but only slightly. I'll do my best to explain, and MOST IMPORTANTLY I appreciate all your questions and comments as I find the fellowship VERY enjoyable. Not ALL non-christian songs are bad/evil. However...non-christians are by their very nature in enmity with God. So while a non-christian may write an occasional song that is seemingly in line with our beliefs, that is the exception, not the rule. You would be hard pressed to find a non-christian musician that NEVER wrote about non-christian ideologies. SO my question is WHY support those people? Why would you support somebody who writes music from a sould that is in enmity with your Saviour? I would agree that this theology puts us in a position of having to watch out for ANYTHING no matter what media form it is in...but I don't necessarily find that a bad thing. There are some authors who write fiction (i.e. make believe) stories but then act as if they are based in truth...that is a danger. Same with TV, plays, and art exhibits. Lastly...there is a wealth of scientific evidence that MUSIC affects our brains more than any other form of media. Why wouldn't you buy a mint with a cross on it? The point of the testa-mints is to spark conversation, thats it. Also, I clearly stated earlier that I don't believe that you have to ONLY support Christians. If you want certs, but them. However...if you find out tomorrow that the company who produces Certs has got a plan to produce "Cert-ain Demons" with pentagrams on it...then you should cert-ainly stop buying them. Fogerty...had to look him up cuz I hadn't heard he was born again Christian. Still don't know it cuz he doesn't EVER mention it in interviews. In fact, I have a hard time believing that he would re-release an album of music celebrating his former association with clearly satanic CCR. Keaggy...glad you mentioned him. I love this man as a brother in Christ, and his music is soooo special. Dylan...his "christianity" lasted long enough to record two albums. He died claiming to be a humanist who made a deal with the devil. Cash...An enigma. He sang songs written by KNOWN satanists...but claimed to be a Christian. If you wanna support a person who sings songs written by openly admitted satanists...thats your call. Of course, I get your point. For me its about influence. I have said that I don't think we have to support ONLY Christians. However, I would certainly support a person who claimed Christianity over someone who doesn't. This topic isn't about not giving $$$ to non-christians...for me its about not supporting a non-christian influence. Non-Christian musicians have a massive influence in our society and it is not wise (IMO) to give money to people who weld that type of influence. If a restaurant I loved began to attempt to influence non-Christian values...then I certainly would not continue going there. This is why I don't frequent bars, or strip clubs...they have a decidely non-christian influence on their patrons. However, I don't stop going to restaurants simply because they have wine on the menu, even though I am against the consumption of alcohol. The restaurants influence is not to get you in to drink alcohol, they simply provide that option. A secular performers influence is decidedly non-christian. You mentioned cookbooks, but I truly don't know how much influence a cookbook has over people, whether secular or Christian. However, if you had two cookbooks to choose from, I would hope you would support a fellow believer over a non-christian. I hope I made a little sense here...lol

While Bill Clinton was President there were 7500 active duty deaths in the military. This is according to the Dept of Defense Manpower Data Center. This was during a time of "peace." There have been Approx. 9000 deaths under President Bush (sorry no "real" stats after 2004 so I'm kinda adding in my head the last two years)..and we've liberated Afghanistan and Iraq. Do we REALLY want the democrats in charge of what happens to our troops? They have shown NO ability to care for, or provide for, our troops in the past. While the media makes us think the American holocaust is happening to our troops in Iraq, we need to look at how well the troops have been managed by the President so far. The President is right. More troops on the ground eases the tensions and provides a higher level of security and provides more downtime for recharging. The democrats want to lose the war for political gain and they are willing to put American troops in harms way to accomplish that goal.

Personally...I say yes. All non-Christian music IS bad. However...I try to not be overly judgemental about it. I've done the whole "burning my music" before and I realize now the horrible idea it was. I now call for Christians to trade their secular music into a shop that buys music CDs. Then take the money and go to a Gospel store and start supporting Christian music. Sure, its not always a fair trade...but its more productive than a bonfire, IMO. I think the distinction is NOT that non-Christians can say things representative of God, but rather that God can use things non-christians say and do...for His Glory. Like Paul, we as Christians, should always being viewing the spiritual nature of things and using them to Gods Glory. That does not mean that we should yoke ourselves to those non-Christian lifestyles or musings so that we can try and glean a spiritual message from them. Briefly, about Paul's quote (probably better in another topic): Paul was well educated, but not as a Christian. It is certainly no stretch to conclude that Paul was able to use the poets line to invoke his authority on the topic he was speaking about. It is quite likely that the poet's quote was learned by Paul, not as a Christian, but before his conversion. Just a thought.

Brookings has been tallying stats on Iraq since the beginning. This is NOT difficult to look up. Attacks against the coalition have been greater than attacks on civilians since DAY 1 of this war. And now that the Iraqi security forces are growing...the attacks on the Iraqi security forces are growing BEYOND attacks on civilians. In the interest of honesty...its only fair to agree that attacks on civilians is growing. However, attacks against the coalition STILL heavily outweighs attacks on civilians. To further advance my point (which it seems I am the ONLY one willing to back up statistically)...the attacks on civilians is largely attacks by the Shiites against the Sunni's. It has been reported that in some cases Shiite militia are being warned by Iraqi security of coalition forces in the area. AGAIN...this is not a civil war because the Sunni's are powerless to stop what is happening. People distrust the Sunni's because of their action under Saddam and want to be rid of them. The people of Iraq are trying to expel the Sunni's in what is termed a "violent expulsion." And who can blame them. This is NOT a civil war by hardly any definition. To view civil vs. Coalition insurgency attacks... goto PAGE 24 of the pdf file A "civil war" by definition requires that the war be primarily fought between the people of a national territory, fighting between themselves. While there is certainly some in-fighting. Iraq is still a war fought primarily between coalition forces and the insurgency. A "civil war" must also be "a war." The dictionary calls "war" a "hostile contention by means of armed forces." This implies that their MUST BE at least two armed forces primarily engaged with each other. A civil war requires leaders who say what they are fighting for and why, and a public that understands what it is all about -- the divisions, the people and the goals. Again..regarding the Iraq War this can ONLY be said concerning the Coalition and the Insurgency. The third principal condition of "civil war" is authority, and it is just as important. The point of the violence must be sovereign rule: combatants must be trying either to seize national power or to maintain it. Since the violence is primarily between two forces OUTSIDE of Iraqs national borders, this does not apply. The Sunni's have NO hope, or authority in the region. Iraq IS NOT in civil war. Although it would certainly slip into civil war if the coalition forces abandoned the gov't. Or it would become a full on genocide/expulsion of the Sunni population.

Oh...I see...you only take "good" drugs. The bible says to bring "into captivity every thought...2 Cor 10:5" That would apply in every instance that you place your mind into the hands of anyone who wishes to entertain your mind. I think you should be more interested in supporting artists you have more in common with spiritually. I cannot think of ONE non-christian artist that I am like-minded enough with to purchase his music. Books and TV are just as influential and people enter in at their own peril. ...AK...just curious about these "good" non-Christians you support. How do you justify that? I'm not saying that you have to sponser ONLY Christian people. However, in the case of music, you are supporting a musician that spreads a non-christian message to as many people as they can. If they are not serving Christ, who are they serving? And should we financially sponser their service? And just who are these non-Christian musicians that have no "evil" in their lyrics? I just wanna say...I realize I sound like a total "stick-in-the-mud" on this topic, and that is NOT my intent. I am very passionate about Christian music. Having worked in that industry I can relay the frustration of dealing with Christians who are continually trying to ride a fence in regards to secular and Christian music. To see young people come to a Christian concert wearing a $30 dollar T-shirt sponsoring their fave secular band...and leaving without supporting the Christian band the same way, is sad to me. If you guys like secular music..fine. I just don't think we should support it financially, before supporting our Christian brothers and sisters in ministry.