Vickilynn

Shalom Karen, No one said YOU advocated anything. Actually, if you've read the thread, the topic is a split from another thread where people said those with mental illness should just repent. No one is referring to you Karen. If she is a born-again Christian she cannot be not demon possessed and has nothing to be "cast out", that's not what we're discussing here. Please, let's stay on Topic. Thank you!

Shalom, Another example in my life I thought about today. There is a precious sister in my LifeGroup who has severe OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder). She longs to free of her behavior, but she cannot control it. In fact, she does it without thinking about it and only sees the results. She picks at her face until she is a bloody pulpy mess. Then, she is so embarrassed that she won't let anyone see her. People have told her to just "repent of her sin" and she has tried as she says she loves Jesus. However, this disease is beyond her control and it has nothing to do with just repenting of sin. She has other self-destructive behavior as well. As the Body of Messiah, we are to love her, encourage her, try to get her medical help and accept her in the love of Jesus. Not rebuke her or tell her to just repent and she won't cut herself again. That's not possible! She's ill and needs our help as well as our love. That is what this thread is about.

Shalom ladypeartree, Thank you for sharing this, it is something we ALL should think about. When we were preparing for Y2K (OK, don't laugh, there were some valuable lessons to be learned) we thought about the fact that everything was automated and if the "machines" went down, where would we be. We did prepare by having stored dry goods, extra supplies, extra gas and extra cash on hand, just in case. Now we STILL do that to some degree, but of course not as seriously as when we thought we were going to live like that, but it's something we should be prepared for. Good reminder Ladypeartree, thank you.

Shalom, That was the PENALTY for breaking the Laws. Jesus bore our penalty. Oh and now they just fry people or give them lethal injection.

Shalom, Amen. I think some people get confused with "fulfilled" as in ended. But, I like the "made full" explanation. I usually say that fulfilled means that He "embodied" the teachings of the Law, as in walked them out, not ended them. I believe the confusion is because of the word "fulfilled" and how people interpret that.

Shalom Emily Anne, Examining the difference in terminology is really off topic. It doesn't matter what you call it as far as the OP topic. The issue is how should we treat ill people?

Shalom Emily Anne, Absolutely. That's what I've been saying.

Shalom Emily Anne, That's circular reasoning and really not what we're talking about here. The point is you CAN'T prove it's NOT caused by something medical. So telling someone to "repent" of their disorder is wrong. They may not be able to do anything about their condition. Your opinion. Mine differs and the key is, it IS valid. I don't really care to argue semantics. Let's discuss the heart of this thread, not the surface. How does what you're arguing relate to the OP Emily Anne?

Shalom Axx, And I state again, we cannot say that ALL people with mental illness have this disease as a result of THEIR sin. We cannot know the causes of everyone's diseases because we cannot see their hears. Only G-d can. I do. It is a very real medical condition caused by our body and not some external source and not our sin. It is essential to this discussion because it is the position that not all mental illness can just be "repented" of. Good for you! However, since none of us are drs, the point is, none of of can KNOW for a certainty what is transpiring in someone's body or heart. So, THAT is not helpful to this discussion. Funny how you two only picked on diabetes and not the rest of my post:

Shalom Emily Anne, The criteria for diagnosis is not a blood test. You and Axx have made that argument, but it's really not valid. There are plenty of physiological illnesses that cannot be diagnosed through blood tests, but rather ruling out other diseases and treating the symptoms. Not true. Illness is illness. The topic of this thread is why is mental ILLNESS treated as sin? Because it's not a sin, it's an illness. To treat sick people as if all they need do is "repent" of their illness and they'll be all better is a horrible thing to do. Can a blind person repent of their blindness? No. Did you know that some blindness can be caused by emotional trauma? Saying someone has an emotional disorder is NOT saying that their illness is sin or they can just repent and get over it. Can Jesus HEAL their blindness? YES! Not the same thing as telling someone to repent of a real illness. That's the topic of this thread. None of us are drs, so we'll have to leave the diagnosing to another thread.

Shalom Emily Anne, I disagree. The same way that diabetes is a physical chemical imbalance in our bodies, real mental illness can be caused by a lack of certain chemicals and/ or an imbalance of others. Seratonin for one. True. And those chemicals affect our bodies. For example, when someone is severely frightened or very stressed, their brain may signal the release of adrenaline which causes the heartbeat and blood pressure to increase. It can cause hypertension and even heart attack. It is called the "Fight or Flight Response" and it's very real. Hormones can become imbalanced very easily, as you mentioned, by stress, illness, age,other medications etc. Hormonal imbalances can cause a myriad of physical problems, including some mental illness such as depression or anxiety disorder. Chemical imbalance is very real, and causes very real physical symptoms in both body and behavior.

Shalom wc4Jc, Huh? Oh, welcome to Worthy!!!

Shalom Kari, C'mon now, don't be shy, tell us what you REALLY think!!

Shalom, Yeah. That's what the Internet is for.

Shalom, The Declaration of Independence. THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE Action of Second Continental Congress, July 4, 1776 The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great- Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World. HE has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good. HE has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. HE has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only. HE has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures. HE has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People. HE has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of the Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and the Convulsions within. HE has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. HE has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers. HE has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries. HE has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance. HE has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures. HE has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power. HE has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: FOR quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us; FOR protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: FOR cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World: FOR imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: FOR depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury: FOR transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences: FOR abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rules into these Colonies: FOR taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: FOR suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever. HE has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. HE has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People. HE is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation. HE has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. HE has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions. IN every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People. NOR have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends. WE, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATED OF AMERICA, in GENERAL CONGRESS, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Note: This document is public domain. Void the copyright statement below.

Shalom, What does G-d's Word say about false prophets? Ezekiel 13:9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Matthew 7 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep

Shalom Axx, But, if that's your standard, it goes both ways. If there is no definitive test FOR mental illness, you can not RULE OUT that mental illness is present. You see? When I was being diagnosed for FMS they thought I had lupus. However, there ARE blood tests for lupus (ANA etc.) which we negative. So, I did not receive medication for lupus. At the time, there were no medical tests other than subjective symptom assessment to diagnose FMS. This is the same criteria with mental illness. They rule out other diseases and see if the patient displays certain symptoms of the mental illness. It is just as valid as with the medical illnesses. One person in my life I am close to is clinically depressed. I'd rather not go into all the details, but suffice it to say, he had no control over what was happening to him - the auditory and visual hallucinations, the suicidal thoughts, the erratic and violent behavior. Many things transpired, including many of his Christian friends saying that he should just repent and pull himself up by his bootstraps and back to serving G-d. He tried and failed and felt more condemned and more depressed because he was constantly being told that it was HIS FAULT and that he could get over it if he just trusted Jesus enough and surrendered himself enough. Well, he FINALLY got the help he needed, including several medications and he is much much better! No hallucinations, no suicidal tenancies, no violence etc. In this person's case, his chemical imbalance (physical cause) resulted in his mental illness and is being successfully treated with medication and Christian counseling.

Hey Vickilynn... I sincerely appreciate this post. I so DO NOT desire to hurt anyone, but I really feel for this topic because I have dealth with it personally and professionally. I promise I don't feel condemned...and I promise to try to deal with the issue gently. I have had many discussions with most of you...and hope to in the future. Whether we agree or not. Shalom Axx, I hear ya and appreciate it! Let's discuss the issue and I pray that people will understand that no one is pointing any fingers at them personally or trying to speak to anyone's specific situation. I won't be offended if you disagree with my experience with my loved ones or my views.

Shalom Phil, Yo dude! Hey! It's not about YOU! Seriously. It's about G-d. No one is criticizing YOU, but rather the view that being slain in the spirit is Scriptural. We are talking issues here. You are the one making it personal. No one is dissing your experience or opinion. If I may remind you, it was you that dissed others for not sharing your view. So, let's leave off the personal stuff and just talk issues, OK?

Shalom Eric, On this you and I are in agreement. The term "friend" here is causing some misunderstanding I believe. There is a huge difference in spending time with someone to share the Gospel and in hanging out with someone to socialize. I believe that we SHOULD go to non-Believers to share the Gospel, but not to be friends, intimate, sharing our lives.

Shalom Dear Ones, As the OP I just want to plead with everyone not to take people's posts personally. We do not know your particular situation and cannot accurately assess it. Nor should we! I'd really like to have the discussion without people feeling as if they are being condemned personally, as I know that is not anyone's intentions. I know this is an emotional topic, especially for those of us who live with loved ones struggling with mental illness, but let's discuss this objectively and not personally.

I don't think that was established AT ALL. All that was established was that it was difficult to discuss the root cause of mental illness because people have emotional attachments to their personal situations. However, just because some people didn't want to hurt or "pile on" to the pain of people they respect by continuing the convo does not in any way indicate that a consensus was established. Shalom Axx, It is established by the Word of G-d that man cannot see into another's heart and make a judgment concerning sin. I understand that your opinion is that mental illness is not real, but that doesn't make it truth, I'm sorry. And, as I replied in a similar thread, there are plenty of REAL medical illnesses that have no specific test to diagnose them. The diagnosis is made by ruling out other diseases and assessing the symptoms. You know that if you know anything about the medical field. So, the argument that there is no medical test for mental illness is not a valid argument to disprove the reality that mental illness IS a real illness. I challenge you to PROVE your opinion that mental illness is not real illness. You cannot by the same standards.

An excellent question, Vickilynn, and one that I will try to answer for you. When I read bigblue's posting, I could see myself walking down that same path earlier in my Christian life, for I once believed just as bigblue and the other posters that do not not have any use for the phenomenon called "slain in the spirit", a term that is not found in Scripture per se, but is the Pentecostal explaination for the experience of being on the ground under the power of the Holy Spirit. So why bigblue and not the others? Because I empathized most with bigblue in his journey as it is so close to the journey I also travelled as a young Christian. Besides, when you've answered one critic, you are also answering the others as well, in a sense. Shalom Phil, Thanks for your reply, however as I read bigblue's posts, they do not sound like a "journey", but simply posting his beliefs from Scripture as the rest of us are doing. And from what I read in this thread, bigblue is not even posting as much as Ovedya, Matthew, HisMindInMe and others who believe that being "slain in the spirit" is not Scriptural but rather experiential. And you directed your personal remarks to bigblue, as well as your accusations of his walk. So, no, your comments were not to the general readers. I'm just pointing out that your remarks were definitely off-topic and counter-productive to this discussion. Well you were inclined to make them in the first place. Once you post something publicly, you should be prepared to be accountable for them. If you have the inclination to make these comments, others have the right to hold you accountable. As for "off-topic", like your posts on the fact that you are a "recovering" Southern Baptist and all the anti-denominational words? Good call, getting back to the topic of being slain in the spirit topic. Thank you. I believe this thread will benefit from your decision. And that is what we are discussing, not the gifts in general, not being an EX-Baptist, and not accusing people of not being open to the Holy Spirit if they do not believe this is a Scriptural concept. For the record, I am an EX-Pentecostal and I was born-again and believed that being "slain in the spirit" was supposed to be real and Scriptural and what they were teaching me was supposed to be the truth. However, in my years of real study and walking as a Believer for 30 years, I have since left the Charismatic and Pentecostal doctrines which I consider faulty and become firmly grounded in the WORD and not in experiences. I do not believe what is being passed off as "slain in the spirit" in some circles is actually anything other than manipulation. Are there real experiences? Possibly. But, what is being promoted and what we see are most times flesh. We are in the presence of the L-rd all the time if we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us (born-again) and yet we can all usually stand up. Why should it be promoted that only under certain circumstances, G-d's presence will knock us over? As for the examples, these people were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, as born-again Believers are today.

Shalom, Another EXCLLENT post from our sister on this topic. I think she sums up my position and G-d's position so nicely!!

Shalom Heather, This debate has been beat to death on this board and every other one I've been on. Please look above at the Pinned "Calvin vs Arminius" for this OSAS debate.