BigJer

CFS, I agree with you about the "say a prayer and it will be all right". I have talked to people that came to an altar to pray, were pulled off into a room and told they were saved. Verses were quoted. One problem. He knew that he hadn't reached God yet. There was no difference in his life. Only later did he truly repent and receive the "deposit guaranteeing what is to come", the Holy Spirit. It was as if the trip to an altar or quoting a sinner's prayer has become the new passage into heaven. Have we traded one ritual for another when we do this?

A great big thank you to those who respond without sarcasm, talking around the question, using the usual pet phrases that do not answer the question, etc. You have gained my respect.

I hate to be a pain. However, I noticed that nobody directly addressed the quotes and why there seemed to be some conditions in those verses. I would be interested in a direct discussion on those.

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/security.htm This page does a great job of describing my thoughts on the OSAS issue. Thoughts?

I have noticed a lot of "IF....THEN" in scripture too. Several of the promises have conditions attached to them. Many people have ignored this little detail that has created a false hope for some. It takes some time to find, but it is worth digging into to find the truth.

Say no more. God bless

Neb, brother, we are going to just have to agree to disagree here. I have clearly stated my views. I don't "hate" the gift of tongues. I have clearly stated that. I do not like the misuse of the gift. I do not like the unscriptural emphasis I have seen here and in other places. It is obvious that this is upsetting you so I will stop posting on this thread out of respect toward you.

Aida, thanks. I appreciate your prayers. I too am praying for you. Nebula, So much for your gift of knowledge. I don't like to brag on myself. I have been teaching for about 25 years. I have been pastoring for over 20 years. I have fulfilled every duty involved with being a pastor. I have lead many to Christ and have lead several to being filled with the Spirit. My life has been threatened for proclaiming the need for holiness in every person's life. I am not sure what you mean by being in the trenches. Is there anything else I am missing to be considered having been in the trenches? I do not wish to demean you either. I just believe... from scripture... that there is an over emphasis on one gift on the part of the Pentecostals. They all have my respect and I respect your opinions too. I just can't agree with the way it is taught. I spent over a year researching the tongues issue from scripture, praying over each verse. I even asked if He wanted to speak in tongues to give it to me. He didn't. He said He gave me my gifts and I glorify God with these gifts. You may glorify God with yours too. (Not that you need my permission. )

nebula, I am glad you wrote those words, because you see, when I see your skiing illustration, I feel like the charasmatics think that they are superior to others because they have experienced something that we all should have. You are saying to me, "you don't know what you are talking about, so stop talking about it." I have been filled with the Spirit. I know how He gifted me. It wasn't in tongues. It was in teaching.

Great response!

John 3:16 was the most known scripture in America. Now it is "Judge not that you would not be judged". It is a part of this world's attitude that everything is OK. There is no sin. I've heard the same thing SO much. The fact is there is sin. John Wesley preached on our duty to reprove our neighbor. How far we have come from that!

I have nothing against the gift of tongues. When God gives a gift, it is a wonderful thing. When God gives a gift, it is to accomplish His will, which is super! I do have something against the unbiblical use of any gift. I do have something against unbiblical teaching. Far too many people want to exalt their experience over biblical teaching. I have something against that. I do not feel sorry if someone is misusing a gift and they feel like I am dictating to them how they should be using their gift. In fact, I feel like I have made some progress. It isn't me that is doing the dictating, it is God's Word. There is a more excellent way than the pursuit of a gift from God. It is detailed in Chapter 13. In summary, Chapter 13 means that who you are (the fruit of the Spirit) is more excellent than the pursuit of God's gifts. The way of character, typified by the characteristic of love. Paul goes on to deal with how prophecy is greater than the use of tongues at church and why we should pursue this greater gift. If you are looking for a gift, why not a gift of teaching? Why not a gift of prophecy? That way, others are editified too. It is OK to desire spiritual gifts, but there is a right way to use each gift. Romans 12 tells us this:

Thanks for your input. You certainly are on target with your teaching.

See what I mean? Where are all the posts?

Good post. We focus on the "gifts" so much, we forget the "fruit" of the Spirit.

Swaggart himself said that a person should step out of the ministry for one year after he was caught in sin. He said that when Jim and Tammy were caught. When he was caught, he never followed his own rule. The Spirit simply told me I didn't need to listen to him any more. The Spirit told me long before he was caught that he was into sin. I wish him well. I have no hatred for him. I just don't have to listen to him for the above reasons.

I see the use of tongues designed more to bridge the gap of communication than to confuse. See Acts 2. They understood what was being said in their own home language. They knew they were giving praises to God.

I am glad someone brought this. My major question is did he predestine and call every individual? If not, then Calvin was right in regards to salvation, if he did predestine and call every individual, in the manner you suggest, then this verse would say that EVERY INDIVIDUAL would get saved... "Moreover whom He predestined (every individual), these He also called(every individual); whom He called, these He also justified(every individual); and whom He justified(every individual), these He also glorified." Now if your saying that God Predestines and Calls everyone, but some don't respond... then this verse is a lie! It says that those whom he called, he also justifies, there is no room for Some of the called not getting Justified. Calvin, and those who agree with His veiw see the verse like this... Moreover whom He predestined (Certain individuals), these He also called (Certain individuals); whom He called, these He also justified (Certain individuals); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.(Certain individuals)" This verse does not allow for some of the called to get saved and others to reject. It clearly states that everyone who is predestined is Justified and Glorified. That means that either everyone gets saved (universalism) or that God has indeed chosen some from amidst the evil, to display his Glory... As James put it "OF His own will He brough us forth by the word of Truth." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It isn't saying that ALL are predestined to heaven. It is based on His "foreknowledge". There can be a lot of things invovled in His foreknowledge.

Check out this article This article shows a good balance on this subject.

This is found right before your above quotes. His predestination is based on His foreknowledge. Not on His sovranty. One thing that I see is that it is clear that there are times when He makes some choices. (Examples of this already stated.) Why would He do it? I cannot go beyond scripture. It isn't because He just picks and choses and too bad for the others. He does it to demonstrate His wrath, power, or His longsuffering. He has the ability and power to make these choices, but I also see where:

What stand do they have on Jesus Christ? I've heard they do not believe in the trinity. Also what is antinomianism? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> an

Here is the reference in question: This passage is pointing to the Jewish Christian and saying that they are no better than the gentile christian. This passage was proof that the Jew, even though he was given the law is in no better shape than the gentile, as stated earlier in the chapter: Of course, it helps to understand this when Paul himself states it right after verse 18:

The Way International is considered a cult due to their stand on Jesus Christ and the trinity. They teach antinomianism also.