Massorite

All you need to do is read the word of God over and over and over and teach your child to do the same and pray and pray and pray. God wants an intimate relationship with us and by cultivating that relationship with Him will put in touch with Him and His will for your life. The Catholic church was not set up by Christ while He was here. Christ set up His church and the first gatherings for His church took place in Jerusalem and no place else. Do the research and you will find this to be true. The Roman church was started by Paul when he went there to preach the gospel. The Catholic/Universal church was created sometime after that by men who were influenced by paganism and so today the Catholic church is made up of men and women who were made deity by other men. They believe they are the only authorized by God clergy who can properly interpret the word of God and are directly responsible for bringing pagan ritual into the church sometime around 325 AD. Today we practice this pagan ritual and call it Christmas and Easter. The Jerusalem church which according to the bible was the first organized church, never celebrated Christmas or Easter because they considered them to be pagan even to celebrate the birth of Christ. The only two biblically recorded birthday celebrations were celebrated with the death of a man as part of that celebration.

OK - so why are the merchants of the earth mourning the destruction of Jerusalem? vs. 3 - "...and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." Since when was this descriptive of Jerusalem? That is correct. The woman represents something more then just the city of Jerusalem. She is a world wide entity.

These two verses answer your questions. Jesus was the Son and not the Father so praying to the Father is not praying the Son and while Jesus was on the earth He was part of God but the God head was sitting in heaven on the throne.

The truth is that both Islam and Christianity want to consume the world. The difference is that today Islam wants consume/convert the world by force and if the believers of Christ do it according to the bible it would be done in peace and choice. The Karon justifies violence to further Islam and the bible doesn't. There is no place written any where in the bible about any separation of church and state because in the old testament the church was the state and if it were up to God we would have nothing but a theocracy. And in the end there will be nothing on this earth but a theocracy which will be run by God and His Son Jesus. Even during the 1000 year reign of Christ the earth will be ruled by Christ using a theocracy. In fact there isn't anything written anywhere in our declaration or constitution that says anything about a separation of church and state. So we either go for it now or we go for it later. All peoples of the world are forced to obey the laws of their country or change them if they can so what's the difference? If we had a theocracy in this country we wouldn't have drug smugglers going free and drug enforcers going to jail. We wouldn't be killing one million babies every year, we wouldn't have any satanic religions here, we wouldn't have the crime we have and criminals would be given the right penalties for their crimes, We would have God everywhere and be far more blessed then we are today. Who wouldn't want that? For those who wouldn't want to live in a theocracy. They could leave. If I decided that I didn't want to live in America today I could leave and maybe some day I will move to Isreal.

What we do know is that at the time of the great whore we as the people of God will be within her 18:4 so it will be a world wide entity. In verse 7 the bible tells that the whore claims to be a Queen who is not a widow A queen who is not a widow speaks of a king consort which is something less than a king. The only way a queen can rule over a kingdom is if the king has already reigned and died, in which case the queen would reign in his stead. But this case the queen has set herself up as a ruling queen without ever being married to a king. In doing so she will set herself up in total opposition to the one true and only King of kings and Lord of lords. Here a city stripped of inhabitants and riches is represented as a widow and the word

I reiterate my previous post on this verse... in Christ, His faithful servant, Christian If heaven is the place where "butchered" Christians go, then there are two sets of destination, one who go to the grave without being butchered who did not make it to heaven, and another who gained instant heaven after being butchered. This is works based theology!! Sounds very much like Islam, where the jihadist gain instant heaven, the rest will have to await judgement at the judgement throne on the last days. New creature First of all there is no place in the bible where it says that when we die we will go instantly to heaven. Infarct there is no place in the bible where it is written telling us that when we die we go to heaven instantly or other wise. This doesn't mean that we don't go to heaven but it does mean that for the most part our understanding of what the bible does say is distorted because we read into the bible what we want it to say. So here is what the bible does say. Rev.7-9 After this I beheld and lo a great great multitude which no man could number of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands". The multitude which no man can count are all of the Christians who have died for the past 2000 years plus whether they died a peaceful death, a martyred death or were changed on the day of Christ as the bible doesn't say one way or the other how these saints died. The white robes signify purity. Just as it was done in Jewish custom at the time of Jesus the Bridegroom and His entourage (the angels) would go to the brides house and pick up the bride. Then the bridegroom would take her back to his fathers house and present her to his father as an acceptable gift. Jude 24 & Col. 1:22. We should remember that heaven is the abode of God and we are in heaven for a very short time until we come back to a new earth and a new Jerusalem which is where we will spend eternity. Rev 22. There are three distinations for those who die in Christ before the day of Christ. They are Paradise first, heaven second, and back to the new earth last.

Most believe that when we die we go directly to heaven but there is not one single verse written anywhere in the bible that tells us that "when we die we will go to heaven" . I agree with that. The thousand year reign with Christ occurs before anyone gets to heaven, as I understand the word. now later, in the same post you wrote, Charles Stanley is one of the most powerful, nationally known pastors in our country. His ministry is blessed by God and he preaches into the lives of millions of believers every week. One day I heard him state on national television "You get your name written in the Lambs book of life when you get saved." You know there is nowhere in the word of God where that is written. . Well I have to agree on both counts in that statement. Charles Stanley IMO is one of the best teachers of the word you could find, but like all men, he can only preach from what he has learned during his training, or from a different stand point. I have no reason to believe that one's name is written in the book of life at salvation. It's nowhere to be found in the bible. I'm afraid, but I am one of the people that believe one's name is written at the moment of one's conception and is erased if one has not the Son, at death 1Jn5:9-13. Some times it doesn't hurt to encourage one another, when you agree with a bro or sis. cheers, eric Thank you very much. I am blessed by your post.

I don't thing the problem of Sodom & Gomorrah was abortion! They would not have had the medical technology! The problem with Sodom and gomorrah is stated in Ezekiel: Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fullness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. God mentioned 3 things that especially irritated him about Sodom and Gomorrah: pride fulness of bread prosperous ease They were rich and full of pride, the sin that caused Lucifer to fall. They were proud and thought that all their wealth were self generated instead of a blessing from God. Fullness of bread means that they had more than abundant food and drink and never saw God as the provider! Prosperous ease, Sodom and Gomorrah had Bitumen in abundance which was a prized commodity! They sold it and was wealthy! In their wealth, they had nothing better to do than gossiped and had a lavacious lifestyle that did not glorify God. This is exactly what America did in the prosperous time where they had too much money! They squandered their money on thing that brought no glory to God. Imagine, God sees those three things as worse than homosexaulity! They may not have the Bible, they had Lot-who should have known better than adsorb their lifestyle with fervour! New creture New creature And lets not forghet the going after strange flesh part.

Another reason why we can pamper our pets like we do is because we are the only country in the world who helps Israel financially and other wise and God has promised that anyone who stands on the side of Israel He will bless. Lets pray that Hillary Rotten Clinton doe s not become the President because if she does she wants to do away with all help for Israel and give to the Palestinians.

How does this go along with the topic at hand? Is it that America is so blessed that if some people want to spend money on their pets, they can afford to do it? What's wrong if people want to pamper their pets? They earned that money, can't they spend it on whatever they want to? Half the world lives on less than $2/day-Luke 12:48 for one Scripture {say that America is or WAS indeed blessed by THE Lord}. Among others, this Scripture has been heavily with me for years {just the fact of this:1 baby is aborted/murdered in this country every 20 seconds-to me, 1st degree State sanctioned/supported/protected murder. The LORD HATES the shedding of "innocent blood"-an abomination unto Him-Proverbs 6 for one of many Scriptures on that}: Eze 16:48 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good]. 9/11; Katrina-"the worst natural disaster in USA history". Pestilence just here in NYS, seemingly a new one every week or so. Droughts in southeast. Wildfires in California. Obesity pandemic/type-2 diabetes the cause..... Any National repentence/face down/prayer and fasting as a Nation, pleading for mercy/forgiveness??? Some more of , to me, the latest "soundbites" on what is going on: http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/printarti...&id=7854250 http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/245004/ http://zmagsite.zmag.org/May2006/levine0506.html There is nothing what so ever wrong with spending money to pamper our pets. Just ask my wife. We are so blessed that we can afford to do that which is considered an awful awful horrible thing. To spend money pampering our pets. We got the money and we can choose to spend money on our pets if we want to. Is it a wise thing to do? It all depends on how much money we got. Is it a good thing in the eyes of God? No one actually knows for sure but I would say that as long as we are listening to God about how to spend our blessings and do according to His will in our lives, it would be OK to what we want with the rest as long as it pleases God. And treating our pets like we do pleases God because He wants us to be happy with no worries.

Because there is only one of each event not three. And only one is correct. The rest are false teaching and sinful to teach.

Well, there are tribulations and there is THE Tribulation. The point I am making is that you cannot compare the difficulties and problems associated with fallen and broken world to the pouring out of God's wrath. Those are two completely different issues and defy any possible comparison. Where pray tell, do suppose those who are raptured are raptured to? Is there someplace else other than heaven? I am not the one with the burden of proof on that issue. If you cannot provide a Scripture that states that a certain level of maturity to be in the rapture, then it is scriptural by default. Your the one making the assertion and it is up to either support it or in the absence of needed evidence concede that your position is mistaken. No, I have just not received the Scriptural basis from you that you claim exists. Still waiting.... Well your position carries the burden of proof since you are the one making the allegations. So far, you have provided NO Scripture and so I have no reason to believe that your position is based on Scripture. Once again, if the rapture is not about heaven, then you need to demonstrate WHERE those who are raptured go. Furthermore, the fact that a person is saved to the uttermost torpedoes any notion that there one must be saved on a certain level of maturity to be raptured. When you are saved, you are saved 100%. Granted, there are maturity levels in a Christian's life, but being raptured is nowhere made conditional upon being at a certain maturity level. That is just nonsense. Once again, it is up to you to demonstrate the strength of your position. I don't have to disprove your assertions if you lack the evidence to support them. Again, If you cannot support your position, it is wrong by default. I simply need you to provide the Scripture that states that the rapture is conditional upon a person's spiritual maturity. No, it is based upon how God has revealed Himself in His Word. We know His character from how He is revealed in Scripture. I do not impose subjective attributes to God. He reveals His character and integrity in the Scriptures. Again, the scriptural evidence, or lack thereof, to support your position is the plum line. If you cannot provide that, then your position is DOA and my assertion that your position is unscriptural would be correct. All that stuff about maturity amounts to nothing more then a hill of beans. When the resurrection gets here the mature and the immature will both be in it and when the tribulation gets here both the mature and the immature will be in it. My question is "What does the wrath of God look like to you". Starting at around 50 years after the death of Christ the early church began to be persecuted and continued to be persecuted for the next 250 years. They were beaten, throne into jail, burned alive, boiled in oil, striped of their skin while alive and awake, fed to wild animals in front of thousands of spectators, crucified, impaled, hanged, and their bodies were used as torches for light at Roman parties. Only God knows how many died in His name. Was that the wrath of God? Or was it a period of tribulation? Today in 2007 Brothers and Sisters in Christ are being killed simply because they believe in Christ. They believe in the same thing as you and I do. They have receive salvation and because of it they are being tortured, jailed, burned alive, women and young girls are getting acid throne into their faces making them look hideous, their getting their heads cut off and being held over an open flame having the skin on their bellies melt while they watch in an effort to make them denounce Christ and except Islam and their children are being killed before their eyes also. Nobody knows for sure how many die every year but the numbers are up into the hundreds of thousands. So again. Are these Christan's suffering the wrath of God or is it tribulation? What makes us think that we are so good that we will not have to suffer what our brothers and sisters in Christ are already suffering in other parts of the world who believe in Christ just like we do.

Shalom Sheya Joie, A wise word of experience. Thank you for sharing that. We had something similar happen to some friends of ours and it caused terrible repercussions. The woman who wore modest clothing (long skirts, loose tops), had no idea that she did something in front of a man (not her husband) and the man was able to see part of her body that he used for sexual fantasy. Please women, please be mindful. I agree Vickilynn both men and women should always be aware of how they are acting or how they are dressed. My wife helps me to make sure that I never show chest hair or wear pants the are to tight and I always see to it that my wife doesn't wear anything that is too revealing. We work together on that.

The EU is not specifically name but the description of the nation that is the EU along with other prophetic scripture is described in ch. 17 of the book of Revelation. There may not be a specific scripture calling out the EU. Nevertheless, Rev. talks about a beast coming out of the sea with 10 horns and seven heads. The nations of Earth are uniting themselves together making the world smaller and more manageable. It's much easier to manage seven unions than 200 independent countries. Good point and I agree. In the bible the horn represents power and authority. I believe that we are looking at 10 economic blocks with the EU being the biggest. The seven heads represent seven heads of state and the sea represents "the sea of humanity" The beast spoken of is of this world. It is an economic system. In verse 10 of chapter 17 it says "There are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is and the other is not yet come" etc. The seven kings represent seven kingdoms which conquered, enslaved and murdered the people of God IE the Isrealites. The five that are fallen were empirors like the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Persians and Alexander the Great. The one that is, was the Roman empiror and the one which is to come was the Third Riech. In verse 11 the eighth will be the kingdom which is lead by the antichrist. He will be the kindom.

You just made that up to fit your theology.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abraham's bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the Hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up. I can understand an honest disagreement over a Scripture, but to just make something up like that is intellectually dishonest. Greg. Now you are confident or man enough to accuse me of making something up to fit my theology which is the same thing as accusing me of teaching falsely. But are you godly, humble enough to admit you were wrong and apologize. I do apologize for upsetting you. I could have worded my statement in a less offensive way. I'm sorry. However, I do believe what I said is true. That being said, this whole topic is certainly divisive and, let's face it, it is all just an intellectual exercises anyway. I don't see that it has any baring on our salvation or our responsibility to walk with the Lord in accordance with His word. So, I think I'll retire from this topic. I don't want to offend anyone else over something so relatively inconsequential. Greg. Perhaps the word sleep was the only way they were able to explain being gone from the body while still living on...afterall no one actually dies. paul talks about being brought up to the third heaven, being asleep he thinks but not really knowing if he really was. Lazarus was aware of where he was but not what was about to happen when Jesus called him forth...anybody who has been in the heavens knows that earth is the least on the mind. The only way to know for sure if the word 'sleep" actually is speaking about sleeping is to do the research on the word "sleep" in that or any other particular verse. If the word is translated "awake" then the word sleep means "to be awake". If the word "sleep" is translated "sleeping" as in doing the same thing we do every night. Then Lazarus was sleeping just as the bible says he did. According to my research tools the words "sleep, rest, resting, sleeps or sleeping" are all speaking of the act of sleeping as in unawares of what is going on around you just as we do at night in the Greek, the Aramaic and the Hebrew. So unless these bible dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances I use are wrong the word "SLEEP" is speaking of exactly what the word says. Some who is sleeping which means that Lazarus was sleeping and that is according to the words that actually came out of the mouth of your Lord and Saviour.

People that believe in a pretrib rapture give the rest of us a bad name, trust in God to bring you through as the bible says he will or to give you the strength to stand for him and die if need be,this escapism is not true Christianity nor is it biblical. So where in the bible does it say there will be a second chance, that people will have a chance to be saved after the rapture? Where does it say that the antichrist will enter the new temple three and one half years after the beginning of the seven years begins? Nowhere! There is not one single scripture that you can used to confirm the what you just stated. Which is why the pre-trib concept is a false doctrinal teaching. The fact that the "restrainer" is the church, that the 144,000 will travel around the world re-evangelizing a new body of Christ, the fact that there will be "seven years of tribulation" and the fact that the wrath of God is the tribulation are not written anywhere in the bible. So where did you get your info? Because God didn't write it.

Yes but the urine bwould not be cold and not hot which would melt less snow. Go Figure.

Yes but the urine bwould not be cold and not hot which would melt less snow.

And where in scripture does it say that the seven years has been shortened to five months. I never new that. Thats because there is no where in the bible where it says that the seven years will be shortened to five months Isa

Does it say the rider on the white horse brings peace? Again, there is nothing in Rev. 6 to indicate that this is so. There should be no question about whether not the antichrist brings peace because the bible says that he will make a contract of peace for security with Isreal at the beginning of the seven years. Three and one half years later he will break his covenant with Isreal. Daniel 9:27 The one week in this veres is speaking of the last week of the seventy weeks spoken of in verse 24 of this chapter. What the bible dosen't say is that this peace will be for the whole world and cetainly not for the believers in Christ.

Saying the Holy Spirit is God,doesn't change any thing.I have never denied that the Holy Spirit is God,The Holy Spirit is no less God than you spirit is you. Genesis 1:26 any time people create a complete doctrine around one solitary verse you know it must be flawed. This is just what I was talking about, you give an answer but you didn't answer his question. Just like you give me a response but it doesn't really address the scripture given. You just ignore it and re state your doctrine, just like you did above. I will get to your list later, but it looks like much doublespeak. I know I get caught up in the bickering some times. But you all are taking the cake. If you don,t stop on the personal stuff the mods will shut this topic down. I like to bicker myself but to go on and on gets nobody going anywhere.