Retrobyter

Shalom, everyone. I don't really believe in ANY of them! The "tribulation," especially mentioned in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, is a translation of the Greek word "thlipsis" which means "pressure." In context, it is clear that this "pressure" is the pressure put on Isra'el during a time of genocide. Now, preterists believe that this was fulfilled during 65 to 70 A.D., but I believe it only started then. It continued on for the next 1937 years (give or take), and will get worse before it gets better. I believe that this "pressure" is strictly on Isra'el and may be extended to the rest of the remnant, as well. (That may include us Gentile [Goyim] believers.) There is NO "great tibulation" at all. Listen to the words carefully: Matt 24:9-21 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. KJV The above bold words come from the Greek word "thlipsis." What Yeshua` was saying is this: "At that time they shall turn you over to put you under pressure and shall kill you. You shall be hated by all the Goyim (Gentile) countries on my account. Then, many will be led into sin by betraying one another and shall hate one another. Many lying prophets shall come on the scene and shall mislead many people. Because lawlessness (religious beliefs without the Torah) shall have been multiplied, the love of the many [isra'elis] shall grow cold. However, he who shall survives to the End, that person shall be rescued! And this good news about the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the world for a testimony to all the Goyim (Gentile) nations, and then shall the End come. Therefore, when you shall the disgusting thing that makes Isra'el desolate happening in the Holy Place, proclaimed by Dani'el the prophet, (he who reads should understand), then those in Y'hudah (Judah) should flee to the mountains! He who is on the housetop should not come down to take anything out of his house! [He should take the "road of the rooftops" out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!] He who is in the field should not come back into town to collect his clothes! And...OOAAHIEEE!...for those who are pregnant and for those who breastfeed in those days! Also, ask God that your escape not have to be during the winter nor on Shabbat (Sabbath), for that would make it HUGE pressure, the worst ever since the creation of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be again!" Presumably, the students of Yeshua` DID pray that it not happen on Shabbat or in the winter when Titus attacked Yerushalayim, because His destruction did not catch them in winter's cold and snow nor did it catch them on a Shabbat when travel was limited, but they got clean away into the mountains. "Seven years of tribulation?" No, that comes from a bad read of Dani'el 9:24-27: Dan 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people [isra'el] and your holy city [Yerushalayim], to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And He [the Messiah] will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the coat-tails of abominations [against the Messiah] will come one who makes desolate [as predicted by the Messiah], even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate." NASU (with modifications based on the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society) The preterists are right in their interpretation of this passage as being fulfilled during and soon after the first advent of Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Christ)...UNTIL the last half of verse 27: The gap that many feel begins BEFORE the last week, actually begins in the middle of the week and continues INDEFINITELY until a "complete destruction is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate!" We may augment this passage with the actual decree of desolation: Matt 23:37-39 " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' ['Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!' meaning 'Welcome is he who comes on behalf of YHVH!']" NASU He is also the One who ended the sacrifice and the grain offering: Matt 27:50-54 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NASU Heb 10:11-22 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, 17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. NASU Thus, Dani'el 9 is no proof text for either the "seven years of tribulation" or for the "Antichrist." It was the Messiah Himself who was with them for half of the week before He was rejected by their abomination of rejecting YHVH's Anointed to be King! Yet, even in His rejection, He provided justification and forgiveness for Jew and Gentile alike! ALL AS PREDICTED by Dani'el! The other half of the week though was NOT fulfilled yet, because it doesn't come "until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate." Since Isra'el is still paying for their rejection of their Messiah, this "complete destruction" has not ended, yet. HOWEVER, the good news is He will also end the desolation when Yerushalayim says, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" When they welcome the Messiah, even Yeshua` the Messiah, then Yeshua` will return! Thank God, we are seeing such a return to Yeshua` by the Jews through the Messianic Movement and Jews for Jesus and other such organizations that see the need for Isra'el to accept their Messiah! So, what do I do now with "pre, mid, or post?" There's only three and a half years left, not seven! "A time, times and half a time"; "42 months"; "1260 days!" Furthermore, they are the "time of YA'ACOV'S Trouble, ISRA'EL'S Trouble!" Pre=Mid and Post? How does one tell? These remaining three-and-a-half years of Ya'acov's Trouble are punctuated with a meteorite shower (Revelation 6:12-9:12), but much of the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen DURING His return while He is returning or even AFTER His return to earth! So is it "pre/mid" or is it "post?" Actually, it's NEITHER! Just remember Paul's words: Rom 11:25-32 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. NASU I like what Paul says a little earlier: Rom 11:11-16 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. NASU When Isra'el accepts Him, and He accepts them, the Resurrection of the Dead will happen! That's when He will return! Keep looking up! Retrobyter

Shalom, Jackie. Some people say the "unpardonable sin" is one thing; others say it is something else. There is NO sin left unpaid on the cross! He died for all sins because He died for all sinners, and there is NOTHING too big for God to handle! He created this world and everything and everyone in it; He created the Universe with all of its nebulae and galaxies and all the stars and planets in them down to the smallest particles of matter and energy! Could there possibly be ANYTHING that God could not do???!!!! "Blasphemy," transliterated from the Greek word "blasphemos," means "a belittling" or "putting someone down." The ironic reason that "blasphemy" can't be forgiven is because THE SINNER has come to the conclusion that God can't forgive the sin! They have put God down--belittled God--saying that He is incapable of forgiving some sin that is too big for God to handle. That's pride and THAT'S blasphemy! There are many ways that we might put God down, but all of them are a "wall of papier mache'." They may LOOK like formidable sins--sins that God could not possibly forgive--but the TRUE God can easily break through that false wall and forgive them anyway! STOP FOCUSING ON WHAT YOU FEEL! You should focus on the promises of God, instead. When God justifies someone who does not deserve justification, it's because HE wants to; there's nothing good in us to get His attention, and there's nothing in us to make Him want to keep us! IT'S ALL HIM! Now, having said that, we are not given the information that HE alone is privy to, namely whom He has chosen and whom He has not. That is PURELY from His perspective. To the contrary, He tells us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature!" Hope this helps! Retrobyter

Shalom, my friend, Sorry, but "heaven" means "the sky" (Hebrew: Shemayim; Greek: Ouranos); it doesn't have "pearly gates!" The New Jerusalem, the capital city of Future Yisra'el and the capital city of the New Earth, has those "pearly gates." Retrobyter If you believe in the bible you will see that there are more than one heaven - Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. There is the heaven which is the sky, heaven which is the universe, and heaven which Paul was caught up into. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. This makes at least three that we know of. Shalom, cardcaptor! While there are three "heavens," it's important to understand a few Greek words that come into play on this topic: First, the word harpazoo means "to snatch away" and has no implication to the direction of "up." The word "up" was supplied in translation into English simply because that is the direction for "heaven," but this still begs the question, "What is heaven?" HOWEVER, another very important word is ouranos, translated "heaven" and usually meaning "sky." The concept of "first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode" was at least propagated by the Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) during the 50's through the 90's. There are problems with this concept, however. For instance, where is "God's abode?" Consider the following verses: Ps 139:7-10 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. KJV Isa 66:1-2 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. KJV God is omnipresent--everywhere at the same time--where would be "His abode?" Second, consider the following verses about our Lord Yeshua's answer to the P'rushim: Matt 16:1-4 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. KJV Something most people don't realize from these verses is that the word for "heaven" in verse 1 is the SAME GREEK WORD translated "sky" in verses 2 and 3! That word is ouranos. There are other Greek words rendered "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," or "heavenlies," but ALL of them are based on this Greek word. With the exception of "epouranios," all of the other words are still talking about the sky: Mesouraneema means "in the middle of the sky," and refers to where the birds fly. Only "epouranios," meaning "belonging to the region above the sky," could be talking about a place farther away than our atmosphere. It's only used a few times in the Bible. No, I believe that Peter is better to listen to than Scofield. He gave a DIFFERENT interpretation for three heavens or three skies: 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (1), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (3), wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV Not three heavens spatially, but three heavens (skies) CHRONOLOGICALLY! The first sky and earth were before the Flood of Noach's day; the second sky and earth are what we are in now; and the third sky and earth are what will be after the Fire, the New Sky and Earth described in Revelation 21 and 22! Hope this helps. Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, my brothers and sisters. I know this is an old topic, but I would like to bring one thing up to your attention: Have you ever considered that the parables of Matthew 13 (particularly the last six), were NOT intended for this time period at all? I believe they describe events that are yet to happen in the future kingdom that Yeshua` establishes when He returns to earth, to Isra'el, and to Yerushalayim. I believe that, since these are parables about that kingdom, this will be at the end of the "kingdom age", i.e. the first thousand years of His reign while haSatan is incarcerated (Rev. 20:1-3) and Yeshua`s kingdom grows to fill the earth (Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45) and before Yeshua` turns over control of the whole world to His Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28). Of course, we know that the King will reign forever; His reign does not end after a thousand years (Luke 1:23; Dan. 7:13-14). Rev 20:1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. KJV Dan 2:34-35, 44-45 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ..... 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. KJV 1 Cor 15:24-28 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV Dan 7:13-14 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, josh-13. For biblical evidence that both a human being and an animal have a "spirit," i.e. a "breath" (Hebrew ruach), see Ecclesiates 3:21: Eccl 3:21 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? KJV (This verse, by the way, is talking about when men and animals die, i.e. when they "breathe" their last "breath." Animals are generally face down in the dirt while human beings are most often on their backs.) For biblical evidence that both a human being and an animal have a "soul" (or rather ARE a "soul", Hebrew nephesh), see Genesis 1:30 and 2:7: Gen 1:30 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. KJV Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. KJV In both of these verses, the word highlighted is the Hebrew word nephesh. I really believe that most of us have things really kookie! Instead of giving simple Hebrew (and Greek) words multiple meanings (because that's what we English-speaking peoples have done to the English language), we should look for a SINGLE meaning that fits multiple verses in the Bible and adjust our thinking accordingly. I believe that we have certain expectations and try to fit what we learn from Hebrew and Greek into our theological molds rather than form our theology from what we glean from the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. We are guilty of EISEGESIS (reading our thoughts and belief-systems INTO the Scriptures) instead of EXOGESIS (getting our thoughts and belief-systems FROM the Scriptures)! Neither "soul" nor "spirit" is the divide between human beings and animals. What divides men from animals is the "image of God" in which our ancestor Adam was created. Sometime, take a look at the Scriptures that contain the word "ruach" and those that contain the word "nephesh" and remember IN EVERY CASE the children of Isra'el used the SAME words! (One can do this with an Englishman's Concordance.) Ponder on the various verses and try to see how the same Hebrew word could apply to each verse. It will change how you look at "soul" and "spirit." You will also need to drop the adamant attitude and allow the Holy Spirit (Ruach haKodesh) to mold a more pliant you to HIS way of thinking. Retrobyter

Shalom, my friend, Sorry, but "heaven" means "the sky" (Hebrew: Shemayim; Greek: Ouranos); it doesn't have "pearly gates!" The New Jerusalem, the capital city of Future Yisra'el and the capital city of the New Earth, has those "pearly gates." Retrobyter

Shalom, my new friends. I believe wholeheartedly that once a person is justified by God, that person remains justified by God. It's not about one's sins; God justified us "while we were yet sinners." In fact, to qualify for God's justification, you must first BE a sinner. God did not justify the Parush (the Pharisee); He justified the turncoat, Jewish tax-collector for the Romans (the publican)! Now, there are some SIGNIFICANT problems with the posts that I have read so far. First of all and of primary importance is that "salvation," more often than not, in Scriptures refers to the "rescue" of the Jews by the Messiah when He returns. Now, we who are grafted into the "olive branch," or who now participate in the commonwealth of Isra'el, may be included in the remnant who are rescued, but seldom does the word "salvation" refer to the justification of God. This is to what the phrase "salvation is of the Jews" is referring. Next, dichotomous thinking is very DANGEROUS! It allows for no middle ground. Asking "Do you believe in OSAS?" expecting a "Yes" or a "No," pits Christians against Christians. It's divisive and does more to tear down than to build up. We need to understand that, when it comes to God and theology, "let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!" (Rom. 3:4) We need to be able to accept that there is a HUGE possibility that we are ALL wrong! Because of the above statements, technically I do not believe in OSAS, but I most emphatically DO believe in OJAJ! As I was beginning to say, the justification of a person by God does not depend on how bad a sinner that person is. It does not depend on how many sins that person has committed. It does not depend on any good works that person may or may not have done, and it does not depend on whether he or she has kept God's commandments! It all depends simply on whether that person has come to an end of himself or herself and realizes that there is NOTHING good in him or her to merit God's mercy or His grace. When he or she "throws himself or herself on the mercy of the court," then God takes over and it depends on HIM whether and when He will justify that person. Beside these points, there are other lesser points to make: Stop using Matthew 13 parables as though they apply to this age. They do not; they apply to the Kingdom age to come. All of the parables, with the exception of the parable of the sower, are yet to be realized in the future Kingdom of (or from) God. Even the parable of the sower, although it does refer to this age, is STILL talking about the message of the KINGDOM! It's not talking about "the church"; it's not talking about "the body of Christ." It's talking about the promised Kingdom to Isra'el which the Messiah will bring with Him when He comes because He is the very EMBODIMENT of the Kingdom! No King; no Kingdom. Another point: You do realize that "Christ" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "Christos," which in turn, is a translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiach?" Both words, "Christos" and "Mashiach" mean "anointed" or "rubbed" as with the holy anointing oil found in Exodus (Sh'mot) 30:22-33. "Messiah" is an English transliteration of the Hebrew word "Mashiach." If the Kingdom is to Isra'el to fulfill all prophecy, Jesus (Yeshua`) "preached" (heralded) the good news about the Kingdom as did His forerunner, John the Baptist (Yochanan the Immerser), and taught His students (disciples; talmidim) to do the same, punctuating it with the power of God, His Father, to validate the message, then how is it that "the judgment seat (bema) of the Messiah" is "ONLY for the Christians?!!!" Don't you realize that arbitration is a primary role of a king? This "judgment seat of Christ" won't just be for seven years nor will it be in "heaven." The "judgment seat of the Messiah" will exist throughout His reign, particularly in the first thousand years of His reign. It will exist in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in Isra'el, and it will be first and foremost for the Jews and THEN for any Gentiles (Goyim) who may have been grafted with them into the Olive Tree of Isra'el. Retrobyter

Shalom, my brother larrye2001! I believe the answer to your dilemma is two-fold: First, terminology must be carefully used. The word "Christ," as I'm sure you've heard, is a transliteration of the Greek word "christos" meaning "anointed" or "rubbed" and is a translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach" ("messiah") meaning the same. It is not only possible but very probable that people could accept and trust in the "Mashiach" or "Christ" of prophecy without knowing that His name would be "Yeshua`" or "Ieesous" or "Jesus." Yeshua did not lie nor did He misspeak or trick others. The second part of your answer is to be found in the term "salvation." While it may generally refer to the justification a person may receive of God, its PRIMARY understanding is to be found in the prophetic passages in which it is found. The word can also be rendered "rescue" or "deliverance," and its PRIMARY understanding is the RESCUE the Messiah provides when He returns (or as the Jews would like to believe, comes the first time). "RESCUE is of the Jews." "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be DELIVERED: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be DELIVERANCE, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2:32, KJV) This is somewhat condensed from what all needs to be said; so, I hope you can read between the lines a little and understand where I'm coming from. Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, everyone! I am not a Post Trib Rapturist, but I DO believe that there is no need for a "secret" coming of Yeshua` to earth prior to the time of "tribulation" or "pressure" PLACED ON THE JEWS in an attempt at genocide! I see the verses of I Thes. 4 and I Cor. 15 as coming JUST BEFORE He descends to Yisra'el to rescue His people from this genocide! It's a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM! He is merely sending out His messengers to gather His people from all over the world and then transports them to Yisra'el with Himself. "Where I am, there ye may be also," does NOT have to mean "heaven!" It just means that wherever the Lord Yeshua` is, that's where we will be, too. Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, josh-13. You're making this harder than it needs to be. The words translated to "spirit" in the Old Testament (the Tanakh) and in the New Testament (the B'rit Chadashah) are, respectively, "ruach" and "pneuma." Both words originally meant "the wind" or "the breath" by extension. ONLY BY ANALOGY do they mean "the immaterial part." Do you have a "spirit?" Well, do you have a "breath?" Of course you do or you'd be dead! The words translated to "soul" in the Bible are "nefesh" and "psuchee." (In transliterating from Greek, I use PC Study Bible's method of using "e" for "epsilon," "ee" for "eta," "o" for "omicron," and "oo" for "omega.") Both of these words mean "one who breathes" or "one who is animated," i.e., a combination of a body ("geviyah" or "sooma") and the breath. Is there a "spirit?" Well, is there a "breath?" Now, look at this information in light of Genesis 2:7: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. He did not ACQUIRE a "soul"; he BECAME a "soul." In this respect, even animals have "spirits" ("breaths") and are "souls" ("breathers"). This is ESSENTIAL to a proper understanding of these terms when you come across them in Scripture. Hope this helps. Retrobyter