Rhonda Lou

Your reasoning is the "wisdom of man" and not the Word of God. What you said to me is: This verse does not fit my theology and therefore must mean something else. Back up your statement with scripture. The statement by John that "we cannot sin" has to do with the new birth/new creation in Christ Jesus. Check the context of chapter 3. We shall be like Him. You show me that you do not understand the new birth, being born again from above, bing a NEW CREATURE/CREATION in Christ. LT Shalom, LarryT. I believe in OSAS because of three points that the others seem to forget consistently: (1) That justification of a person by God is accomplished BY GOD and not by any good works which we have done. Thus, our justification, not accomplished by good works, is not affected by our bad deeds. In fact, to be justified, one MUST first be a sinner! Justification is freely given without the need to first be cleaned up to come to the Lord. HE does the cleansing after a person comes to Him. (2) That we are BORN into His family, not just adopted or placed by DCF! How does one become "un-born?" God asked the question, "Can a mother forget her baby?" Then answers it, "Well, a mother MAY be able to forget her baby, but I'll never forget YOU!" We are joint-heirs with the Messiah Yeshua`! God does not "re-write His will" every time someone sins and then comes back to Him! He not only KNOWS the end from the beginning; He DECLARES the end from the beginning!!! (3) There is a difference between committing a sin and having a SIN-NATURE. Asking forgiveness for a particular sin will get forgiveness for that sin, but a believer in Yeshua` as Messiah should have asked forgiveness for being a SINFUL CREATURE! When God, for the Messiah's sake, forgives a person for being a SINFUL CREATURE, He forgives ALL OUR SIN, past, present, and future! We trade places with the Messiah when He was on the Roman execution device known as a "cross." As Paul put it, "He became SIN for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him!" Before the cross, Yeshua` was without sin and knew no sin and fulfilled only the God's righteousness, because He "always did the will of His Father." ON the cross, Yeshua` BECAME our sin-nature for us, and the full weight of our punishment was upon HIM! Remember, ALL of our sin-natures were still in the future, not to mention the individual sins, when the Messiah died! The trade becomes complete when one who knows he doesn't have "a leg to stand on" in the courtroom of God the Father, comes humbly to God and asks for Him to accomplish the impossible. God then COMPLETES the trade for that person by justifying him/her and DECLARING him/her GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS FOUND IN THE MESSIAH! For me, this settled the matter completely, and that's what faith is all about. It's trusting God to do for us the impossible and then resting in HIM! Justification by God is all about how GOD ACCEPTS US, not about our accepting God! One should focus on GOD AND HIS POWER, not on himself/herself and his/her weakness! For the one who keep wondering, the very fact that one is still concerned means that that one is still one of His children, because--as was said above--an unbeliever DOESN'T CARE if he/she's sinning! As a matter of fact, the world CELEBRATES sin! The person who sins has become "sophisticated," or on the streets, he/she's considered "bad" and "struts his/her stuff!" He/she's become POPULAR for his/her sin!... For one to REST on the promises of God, one must take his/her eyes off of himself/herself and his/her petty sins, and look to GOD for HIS SPIRIT'S POWER to break the "old man's" hold over him/her in his/her body. To do otherwise, is IDOLATRY!!! for what one is doing when one assumes his/her sin could separate him/her from God's love, is to assume that one's sin is GREATER than God's power to forgive! Thus, one is "belittling" God (blaspheming God), and setting one's OWN actions as GREATER--MORE POWERFUL--than GOD'S!!! I know you're not the one to whom I should be saying all this, and I'm sure one way or another someone in this thread has already said all this, but at this point, I felt it necessary to repeat. I was hearing alot about individual circumstances, end-of-life situations, and "what if's." But, God is an ABSOLUTE GOD and a GOD OF ABSOLUTES! One should bring the focus back to HIM and what HE has accomplished! Retrobyter I could not agree MORE!! I've been trying to find the words myself,tion, but you said it better than I ever could. God called us, justified us, saves us, transforms us, and will glorify us. I never trust myself. I always trust God. When I declared Him Lord, that meant that I would begin cooperating with Him, submitting to Him, as He does His transforming work in me. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says of Christians, "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, ARE CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, EVEN AS BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD." In Ephesians 1:4, Paul writes, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." God called us to Himself before the world began. Revelation 13:8 speaks of the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. Jeus came, knowing He was to die to save us. We do not accept Jesus, He accepted us. We receive what He did, and are born again, yet "no man can come to Me, except the Father which hath send Me draw Him, and I WILL raise Him up at the last day." That is because the God who saves us, also sanctifies us. To treat once saved always saved as a question of how far we can sin and still remain in God's grace misses the point that God is transforming us, and taking us away from sin. Any true Christian would not wonder how long he or she could sin and get away from it -- any true Christian would be so grateful that God SAVED him from his sin, he would let God change Him utterly as God did be giving Him spiritual birth. To believe that one must be totally obedient to the law after salvation is to miss the fact that the law was there to bring us to Christ. Paul asked the Galations, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" At the root of this question is the faith -- who are we letting run our lives? It is God who chose us, calls us, redeems us, saves us, draws us -- He's done it all. Are we starting with Him, and then going it on our own? Any person with the Holy Spirit in them is saved. The Holy Spirit does not leave a saved person because God said that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory. God's Spirit can not leave a believer or He'd be going against His own Word -- and God cannot lie. I've heard it asked, what if someone quits believing. If the person was truly saved -- truly died to self -- truly did spiritually what God did physically -- is truly immersed "in Christ" and Christ in Him -- such a believer would never reject Christ -- Christ would see to it. If one does not want to submit or die to self -- just wants the forgiveness without God's promised changes to the heart, then such a one is not saved. True salvation is dying to self -- not trying to maintain salvation by one's own efforts. The passage on sin, in Romans 6:1-2, 6-7 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth, we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." If we die to self, as He has called and enpowered us to do in His sovereign control, then we will not continue to willfully flaunt sin in front of God or anybody else. That's not who we now are. If we DO flaunt sin, then we never died to self. Believe me, I've been in church all my life -- first a liturgical, main-line denomination, then a Baptist, Church of Christ, and Assembly of God church. All of them taught John 3:16, and I believed God forgave my sins through Jesus death. I knew the Bible backwards, forwards, inside out -- and taught Sunday school for years. I always tried to be good to prove to God that I accepted His sacrifice of death on my behalf -- yet I always told myself, 'Nobody is perfect, and God died to forgive this sin I'm about to do." With my mouth I confessed Jesus as Lord, but my heart was far from Him because I still wanted to be in control!! I'll follow Jesus -- but later. I know I shouldn't do this, but... That was my entire life. I had not made Him Lord. I did not want Him in control -- and fought everything that said He was in control -- I wanted HIS life, and my life also. It took a lot of pride to realize just how much I had promoted "self" to godhood. I had to die to self. I wanted to, and yearned to, and didn't know how to, but it sounded so wonderful to do that -- so noble. In desperation, I figured out that I could not have it both ways. I had tried for 45 years to keep part of "self" in Christianity, and I couldn't do it. I couldn't save myself from "self". God had to do it all. Everything. I was nothing, and can do nothing. Those words still rankle a tad because self is in our flesh and it is always screaming -- but once I cam to that realization -- as God had been leading me and directing to for 45 years, I received Jesus as my Lord. In His power, I gave myself totally to Him. And the result is that I know He is is me, renewing, restoring, bringing me from glory to glory -- not for my sake, but for HIS. My purpose in life is to magnify His name, my Savior, my Redeemer, my Transformer, my GOD. Anybody who has come to the place of being crucified with Jesus knows what Paul means when he says, "I am crucified with CHrist, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ Jesus liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Such a one who believes this would never question whether or not God would take it away. Such a one seeks to remain as close to God as possible, knowing that I must decrease and He must increase -- that every good work is Him doing it through me, that I am not my own. I am His. That, it me is what salvation is. And anybody who has such a salvation would never question whether or not it will be taken away. The God who saves, keeps. The one who has not died to self, has not been desperate enough to want to be rid of the "self" "sin" nature forever, that person need not question whether he can lose his salvation, he needs to question whether or not he has obtained it to begin with. The God who saves, keeps. It's all HIM.

Retrobyter, Thank you for confirming my understanding that you see that abomination as Israel's rejection of God. You mentioned that the flood had not taken place yet, and won't until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. When it does occur, it will be a literal flood. I agree that the there is a gap until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. But if that is true, and Daniel 9:24-27 is speaking of 70 weeks, and 69 of them have occurred, then desoloations until the end, the flood, the time of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, wouldn't that final seven be the final week rather than a reiteration of one of the first 69 weeks? Matthew 24 opens this way: "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily, I say unto you, there shall not be any left here, one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (This event occurred in 70 AD). And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? (The destruction of the temple) and what shall be the signs of Thy coming (Jesus' Second Coming) and of the end of the world? ("the world" is outside of Jerusalem, but it does begin in Jerusalem at the temple). The Great Tribulation is also mentioned elsewhere, under other names, but attributed to the whole world. Paul speaks of it to the Thessalonian Christians, who were Greeks, in 1 Thessalonians 5. In Revelation 3:17, we are told, "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth." That "hour of temptation" is seen as the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 6:15-17, we are told, "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:15-17). I surmised that the first 3 1/2 years of the final seventy weeks are seen as Jesus' 3 1/2 years on earth, it was the final 3 1/2 years I didn't understand. If I'm understanding what you are telling me, you believe they did not occur because the prophecy forewarned people to pray and they stopped it all from happening -- at least that is what I think you mean by: "The "great tribulation" is not over the whole earth; it WOULD HAVE BEEN over the whole LAND (of Isra'el) and it WOULD HAVE BEEN a massive pressure (thlipsis megalas) put on the Jews at a time when an attempted genocide was taking place! The attackers had attempted many things to flush the Jews out of hiding, including claims of "the Messiah has arrived!" Only those who were prepared (warned by this very prophecy) would be spared death. Fortunately (Providentially), being forewarned and praying to God against the conditions that would bring on "great tribulation," the "great tribulation" was avoided and folks survived the attempted genocide by Rome in 70 A.D. by fleeing to the mountains." So how does this fit in with Revelation 12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred and threescore days (1,260 days or 3 1/2 years)? Are you saying that won't happen because the faithful remnant prayed for it not to happen between Jesus' prophecies and 70 AD? I found the covenant from Luke 1 interesting. There are several covenants in the Bible. The one mentioned here is part of the Abrahamic Covenant. He also made a covenant with Moses, and the Israelites, David, and what I've always considered the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33). In Jeremiah, I believe it was attributed to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In Hebrews 8 and 10, I believe it is extended to other believers, but I believe it is sealed in Communion, "Take, drink, this is the blood of the New Covenant, shed for you, for the forgiveness of sins". (paraphrased). I do not believe communion wine is Jesus' actual blood, but I do see something mysterious in communion. For the purposes of this discussion, I believe that the covenant you referenced occurs at the announcement of John the Baptist as a prophet, (the voice crying in the wilderness) to say that the promised Messiah is here. Neither the Messiah nor John the Baptist have been born yet, and the covenant goes back to the time of Abraham, so are you saying that this is the covenant that Jesus will confirm? Interesting; I'd not heard that before. Finally, I DO realize that baptism pre-dated Jesuss -- and even John the Baptist. I find baptism fascinating. Jesus told His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that baptism is immersion/identification with the name used for it. John the Baptist had the baptism of repentance, so the one immersed was immersed into repentance, and identified as such. It was irrevocable, and done publicly. I read that one who was baptized into repentance, under John the Baptist, was saying, in essence, "I have sinned so badly, I am like the hated Gentiles. But I repent, and will never do that again." Much pride had to be swallowed before allowing this to occur. Later, to be baptized as a Christian, knowing that Christians were persecuted and killed by the religious leaders of that day, was to say, "I identify with you, Jesus, even if it means my death" and to do this in such a public matter, took a lot of courage. I almost wish the same importance were attached to it today. So, I can see where you would mark that as the sign of the covenant. Thank you once again for your detail, and for answering my questions. I've not seen your interpretations anywhere else before. Wile, I still believe that Daniel 9:24-27 is a liteal 70 weeks, with a gap in verse 26 before "he confirms a covenant" (paraphrased), you've helped me to see different interpretations of other verses, and I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts. Rhonda Lou

I think our posts got crossed. At the time I wrote my post, your clarification that Jesus did not break the covenant was not posted on my computer. I apologize for that. I began writing mine at 8:49, yours was at 8:59. They crossed. Sorry. I do not know much about Hebrew/Greek grammar, but I do agree with you that the "he" in verse 27 is not the same "he" as is in verse 26. I believe that the "prince that shll come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" refers to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Verse 26 ends with "and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." I agree with you that desolations have occurred in Israel until in 1948 when the nations was granted "nation" status by the United Nations. Then, another "he" comes onto the scene. As for the rest of what you said, I believe I understand what you are trying to say: that Jesus makes the convenant with many (but what exactly is the covenant made after the events of verses 24-26 -- or what do you see as the timing of verse 27?). At any rate, halfway through the covenant, he causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease (the veil to be torn down). Because of the abominations taking place, he shall make Israel desolate until the consumation (presumably the Marriage Supper), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel). I think that is what you are saying. As for Matthew 24:15-16, you mentioned that the abominations which stand could mean something other than a person, like a column, or something. I've never really associated the abominations with a person, but as something done by a person in the Temple. When this act was done, whatever this particular abomination is, then the people are to flee. As I understand it, you feel this particular abomination was the rejection of Christ, but that rejection occurred before His death. He did wreak havoc on the temple twice in His ministry). If the rejection was His death, then there were over 30 years for the people to flee between His death and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. The passage in Matthew sounds like the act of abomination is a signal for people to flee immediately, without even going home to pack. I guess I just still believe that the rest of the verses were literal years, so the final week is as well, though there is, as you say, a period of desolations between the destruction of Israel and the final week. In Daniel 7:25, and in Revelation 11, 12 and 13, it speaks of 42 months, 1260 days, and time, time and half a time (which all equal out to a literal 3 1/2 year period). It uses the terms for the first half while the temple is measured, the two witnesses preach, and the "little horn" speaks blasphemies against God. It is used of the final 3 1/2 years when Israel is persecuted, along with the saints. It is spoken of so many times in such literal terms that I see that as this week. I thank you for taking the time to respond in much detail. Although our interpretations of Daniel 9:27 seem to differ, I respect your love for Jesus, and believe that we share that in common -- and this love is of a much stronger importance than our interpretations of Daniel 9:24-27. We both look for the same thing: Jesus' return, whether it is at the Rapture or at the Second Coming. But I thank you for sharing your interpretation with me.

The main question I have about your theory about the man in Daniel 9:27 who confirms a covenant and then breaks it being Jesus, is that about breaking the covenant, Daniel 9:27 says, "and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured over the one who makes desolate." This suggests to me that the breaker of the covenant will cause desolations until they are poured over him. I can't see Jesus doing this, and if He does, what does "until they are poured over him" mean? Also, Jesus comments on this verse in Matthew 24:15-16: "Therefore when you see the amonination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." I don't understand how this would fit in if the Messiah is the one spoken of in Daniel 9:27. Also, you are absolutely correct in saying that the Spirit of antichrist has been on earth since the days of the apostles. John comments on just this fact in 1 John 2:18-19: Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. Verse 22 identifies this spirit this way: "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the son." This is the spirit of Antichrist, and it is prevelant today. But, I believe that the spirit will culminate in one person because 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says, "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION." To me, this suggests a single person and it says "the" not "a" here which suggests a particular single person. Or is there something I'm missing?

I've read the original question and all of the subsequent threads. The original author would like us to look at history and not the future. Though I believe THE Antichrist to be in the future, there are two things to consider, without getting into the "future". First, there is a "spirit of the Antichrist". John speaks of it in 1 John 2:18-19: "Little children, it is the last hour and you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now, many anti-christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They were out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." This "Spirit of Antichrist" then is somebody who professes to be a Christian, but is not. They went their own way, teaching false doctrines. Continuing in 1 John, this is their false doctrine: "Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either, he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." Anybody who does not believe that Jesus is both God and man is an antichrist. As such, to date, both the Catholic church, and the Pope, believe Jesus is both God and Man. You are correct, however, that they preach not justification by faith alone apart from works, but that once saved by Christ, works are necessary to maintaining salvation. Their beliefs are not strong in Christ working through us, we are, according to them, to do this in our own power. However, the Catholic church is not the only church to be wrong here. Johovah's witnesses do not believe Jesus is God, neither to Mormons or Moslems, or a whole host of other religions. The "spirit" of the Antichrist is prevelant everywhere. Yet, there is also to be a "man of lawlessness". 1 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says, "Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by many means, for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, AND THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." I will not dwell on the futuristic portion of this Scripture, but note that it says there will be a "falling away" as there is now, and that there will be A MAN, a SON of PERDITION. This to me signifies a single person who exalts himself to godhood. There will be many to do this, but only one after the "falling away" more than all the others, and Christ will return after him. To the next point made, that the Catholic church has radically wrong theology, I agree. I've studied the same things as the original author of this question/statement, and the Catholic church does have much wrong with it. But, the true Christian church is made of believers in every denomination. I believe there are Catholics who love Jesus more than their own traditions. I'm Lutheran, and I love Jesus more than some Lutheran traditions. There are people of every denomination and non-denomination that love God, love Jesus, love the Holy Spirit, and survive on the Word of God. So, I do not think the Antichrist or False Prophet will come from any one belief system. I believe the prevalent theme of the false religion will be that there are many roads to heaven and that whichever one is believed, if it is sincere, is OK and will be included in an umbrella entiitled "Tolerant Religion". There will be somebody over that whole system, but I do not know who, nor do I believe we are to look for that person. So many people out there hear lies, we just need to speak truth.

I believe that the beginning of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy is March, 445 BC when Artaxerses' degree to rebuild Jerusalem -- not juest the walls, but allowing people back in. THe degree is recorded in Nehemiah 2:5-6. Most of it has already been fulfilled. But notice that in verse 26, it says, "And after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (referring to Jesus' death); and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (This refers to 70 AD when the temple was destroyed; not one stone lying on another). But then it says, the end of it shall be with a flood AND TILL THE END OF THE WAR DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED." The NLT puts it, "THE END WILL COME WITH A FLOOD, AND WAR AND ITS MISERIES ARE DECREED FROM THAT TIME TO THE VERY END." See, this happens AFTER the temple is destroyed. And though the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, it did not come after 3 1/2 years (or 42 months or 1,260 days -- they are all the same time length) of blaspheming God, and the persecution afterwards was more than 3 1/2 years. There was never any covenant confirmed with Jerusalem which was broken. And the passage insinuated that AFTER the prince who destroys the sanctuary, there would be wars until the end. That's where I see the time lag. There was no covenant then to be broken, and so I believe that is unique to the end. It is the same thing as when Isaiah is told that a virgin would conceive and bear a son. That happened as a sign that they would defeat the Assyrians, and that was recorded in Isaiah 8. BUT, the New Testament says that Jesus' virgin birth was also a fulfillment of the prophey in Isaiah 7:14. This has in view a type of the end, stating that the sanctuary would be destroyed by "the prince to come." Then "until the end" there are wars and desolations, and THEN a prince would confirm a covenant with Jerusalem and break it halfway through. Rhonda Lou

I believe that Leonard was correct in the dating of the gospels. I've read the same evidence. You are correct that Paul does not mention much of Jesus' life in his epistles. Neither do Peter, John (after his gospel), or the author of Hebrews, if he is not Paul) James or Jude. I believe that God inspired the Scriptures, from the books that were written, to the order those books are in, to which ones are included in the Bible, to the translations, to the fact that now, with so many translations, we have the Dead Sea Scrolls AND Hebrew and Greek dictionaries available to check for accuracy. God preserved His word. All of this is to say, that at the end of the final gospel, John writes, in Chapter 20-30-31"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are now written in this book, but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." This, then, was the purpose for the gospels -- to tell Jesus' story, including His birth, death and Resurrection so that we might believe on Him. Acts tells the story of the beginning of the church, and the rest of the Bible is commentary on the story. Paul was commissioned thus by the Lord, as the Lord spoke to Ananias, and told Ananias the following: "But the Lord said to him, 'Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." (Acts 9:15-16) Paul took this to mean that He was to speak to Christ's death and Resurrection: "And I, brethren, when I cam to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-2) Philippians 3:8-14 is Paul's own goal in life, to know Jesus, and the power of His resurrections, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to his death." That is Paul's mission. I don't know if this helps you understand what we believe better or not, but most epistles were written for a specific purpose. James said that faith without works was dead. The epistles of John wrote to try to prove that Jesus was flesh AND God. Peter wrote to help those persecuted Christians have hope. Hebrews was written to stop Judaizers (legalistic Jews). Jude was written to stop false teachers. All of these took the stories of Jesus' life for granted, and wrote as though everybody knew of Jesus life and ministry, but not always the purpose behind it. I hope that explains it a little better. Rhonda Lou

I believe that it is important to know that God's word is inerrant, because I don't see why I would put my faith in somebody's word if I do not believe that word to be accurate. How would I know the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to me unless I knew the types of things the Holy Spirit would say? If I judge which words are correct, and which words are not correct, doesn't that put me in the place of God? Don't I creatie God to my own liking by deciding which words of His I accept and which ones I don't? There is physical evidence out there proving that the Bible is inerrant, provable in any court of law. I did a study on this last year for my Sunday school and the results of the study are as follows: Josephus writes of the Old Testament (OT), "It is true our history has been written since Artaxerxes very particularly but has not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there has not been an exact succession of the prophets since that time." Ataxerxes was the king of Persia, ruling over Jerusalem around 450 BC and the Hebrew OT dates to that time. In 285 BC, Ptolemy Philadelphia commissioned seventy scholars in Alexandria, Egypt to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. It took them 15 years, but it resulted in what we call the Septuagint. The Council of Jamnia in AD 90 finalized the Hebrew Scriptures, but they were not codified until 916 AD into what is known as the Masoretic Text. Most English Bible Translations rely heavily on this Masoretic Text. The accuracy of the OT can be proven from archaeology and history. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, the Masoretic Texts were the best copies in existence. The Dead Sea Scrolls dated from 150 BC to AD 100

Christianity is more than just faith and grace. It is also about living Christianity the way God wanted us to or we will lose the grace. Grace saved us from our past sins and has opened a door to receive forgiveness for our future sins, but will lose the grace if we don't repent of sins and decide to keep in our lives. A good question would be is do people really know what sin is? I have met many, many people who claim to be Christians but are drunkards, fornicators, liars, use foul language, are dishonest, etc. and justify it by saying that God knows their hearts and are forgiven anyways by grace. They actually think they don't need to repent because God doesn't see their sins because the blood of Christ covers their sins so they live their lives without repentance of these sins. A lot of these people believe in OSAS and can't lose the grace.

AMEN AND AMEN!! Praise the Lord!! You are so right!!

It seems your disbelief is that a Christian can't go to hell for lack of repentance. The scriptures say otherwise. Looke at this scripture again - Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Only Christians are called saints today and these scriptures are specifically stating that if I have any of these sins in my life I will not inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God. Works are not canceling grace. They both have their parts in our salvation. Everything we have available from God is by his grace. The ability to repent form sin and receive forgiveness for our sins is by way of grace, but if I choose not to repent of my sins then God says we will lose what was promised. Tell me, will a Christian go to heaven when he dies that has been living in fornication most of his Christian walk? i think the thing is that there is a confusion on what grace is. you said: "Everything we have available from God is by his grace. " let me give you the sad part. The only thing God has provided for mankind is Jesus Christ. That is the only thing that will ever save you. By default we are all going to hell because no sin can enter the kingdom. But God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son.... <----that is grace. Grace is what He is doing for mankind. Grace is not about YOU. So all these scriptures that youre posting about sin entering the kingdom is true but remember that you only need one sin to not make it into the kingdom. If on your last breath on your death bed you have a bad thought then you are going to hell. But Christ steps up before you in front of God the Father and says "he is with me..." then you are good. Christ is your mediator and this means that Christ talks on your behalf. All of this is because you believed on what He did on the cross. In return, Christ will reward you for being a good boy. This is all in 1 Corinthans 3. Grace is God giving makind the opportunity to have eternal life. Rewards are something you receive for being "good." you cant mix the both. Grace is based on God. Behavior is based on you. Salvation sets you up to receive rewards. I do not deny what Christ has done for us. What you are denying is the fact that it is up to us to keep ourselves free from sin until death. I have given many scriptures to attest to that but it is like you refuse to believe them. There are thousands of scriptures in the bible that were given to us by God to live our lives by and you have basically built your faith on about five of them and thrown the rest out. According to your theology we can go through life sinning all we want because it doesn't matter because Christ will always intercede for us. That completely takes away from repentance. While on that subject, Christ and the Apostles taught repentance every where they went. Without it there is no salvation and repentance is dependent and and based on Mankind. Scriptures I have given time and again plainly express that no sin will enter into heaven and no-where does it say that at the last minute Christ will come in and intercede for us. I'm not sure yet how to respond without everything appearing in the quote before it get s to me. I agree that there are passages which sound as though we can lose salvation, many of which are quoted above. There are also many passages which make it sound like we can never lose our salvation once we are saved. In my opinion, the Bible never contradicts itself. God never intended this issue to go both ways. I can't throw away all the "lose salvation" verses, nor can I throw away all of the "eternal security" passages. Rather than quoting verses from both camps, since we all know them from our particular camp, let me state that I disagree with the concept that Jesus saved us, and let us swing to depend on our own power to keep us. I don't think the problem is as much with once saved, always saved, or with losing salvation, as it is with what salvation is. I believe at the root of the question is the easy believabbility today. I say this because I thought I was saved years before I actually was because I believed I was a sinner, that Jesus died and rose for my sins, and that belief in that meant I was saved. But, I believed I was a sinner because everybody is a sinner. I did not really look at my own sin. I did not realize until I tried that there was absolutely NO WAY I would ever be able to change for the better. It's not just that I had committed sin -- it is that I could not find a way to STOP committing sins. Even if I thought I did something good, there was always a little of me patting myself on the back, or being thrilled if somebody else patted me on the back. Most people I know think they are going to heaven because they are "not bad people". We want power, prestige, praise from people, even to make ourselves feel good -- but there is not one single part of me that truly, truly LOVES another simply because I care more about that person than I do myself. I needed to confess THIS sin of "self", and repent of it, asking forgiveness. Now, to repent means to change directions -- AND NOT LOOK BACK!! It means to do something else in a new direction. In my case, it meant asking Jesus to save me. People with once saved/always saved or losing salvation, are speaking intrinsically about heaven. But salvation is so much more than that. Romans 6-8 says that we spiritually die, are buried, and rise again with Jesus. He comes into us -- and HE has the power over sin. We are not "on our own", our trust is not just that Jesus "saves us for heaven" it is that He saves us FROM sin; He and the Holy Spirit sanctify us. Christ is IN US -- the hope of glory. Time and time again in the New Testement, it speaks of us being "IN" Christ, and He in us. John 15 says that unless we abide in Him, and He in us, we can do nothing. Here are more passages: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[ nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD. 17 BUT HE WHO IS JOINED TO THE LORD IS ONE SPIRIT WITH HIM. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 17) 13And you who were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (your sensuality, your sinful carnal nature), [GOD] BROUGHT TO LIFE TOGETHER WITH [CHRIST], HAVING [FREELY] FORGIVEN US ALL OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, (Colossians 2:13) 23For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH (IN UNION WITH) JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. (Romans 3:23, see also Romans 6:1-11 for how this works) 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. (1 Corinthians 2:16) 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20) 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26-27) 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,

Excellent post. Thank God. I've never been so fearful of saying the wrong thing as I've been in this past week and a half since starting here. I PRAY, OH, how I PRAY, that what I say is HIS Spirit speaking through me. God's word is powerful. Mine isn't. Thank you for the encouragement!! Rhonda Lou

This might not answer the exact question, but whether Adam should have told Eve, or God should have told Eve, SOMEBODY told Eve, because when the serpent asked her, "Did God really say you must not eat any of the furit in the garden?" her response was, "Of course we may eat it," the woman told him. It's only the fruit from the tree at the center of the garden that we are not allowed to eat..." (Genesis 3:1b-2a) So, she knew she was sinning when she ate of the fruit. Rhonda Lou

Lija, people often say that the "doctrine" of predestination is a "Paul" thing, not spoken of by others in the Bibile, though I quoted Peter, John and Luke above also. However there is a direct response to your questions by Paul in Romans 9. For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose (Exodus 33:19) So receiving God's promise is not up to us. We can't get it by choosing it or working hard for it. God will show mercy to anyone He chooses. For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying My power in you, and so that My fame might spread throughout the earth.' (cited from Exodus 6:19). So you see God allows mercy to some just because He wants to and He chooses to make some people refuse to listen. (See Exodus 4:21). "Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what He made them do?" "No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who made it, 'Why have you made me like this? When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't He have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for destruction and another to throw garbage into? God has every right to exercise His judgment and His power, but He also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of His judgment and are fit only for destruction. He also has the right to pour out the riches of His glory upon those He prepared to be the objects of His mercy -- even upon us, whom He selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles." (Romans 9:15-24) Beyond that, I can not add anything. Yours In Christ. Rhonda Lou

Hi Rhonda and welcome to Worthy I really like your way of putting things. I think you hit the nail on the head. What I see in your post, if you will allow me to attach my interpretation to it, is that we are to be witnesses on this earth. We are not to be judge, jury, solicitor or atorney, but only as witnesses. Witnesses to God's work within and around us. To say it as God has said it to us To pass on His word To be a voice for Yeshua Thanks Rhonda and blessings I apologize to you (and to boot, I can't remember your "name". The other night when i responded to the other person, I tried every way I could think of to respond to you -- but was always stopped by the fact that when I'd hit "reply", I'd see my e-mail. I talk to myself quite a bit, but rarely do I reply to my own e-mails!! I didn't realize that it always shows the thread, and that I just need to go down to where your e-mail is listed. That's why you didn't receive a response -- I just figured I messed something up. You are correct -- we are witnesses -- not judge, jury, solicitor or attorney. However, I do think there is a balance in the Bible, and that balance is called discernment. If we see Christians doing something detrimental to their spiritual health, as witncesses, we can point out what the Bible has to say about the issue, and even eventually taking action as occurred in Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5, Matthew 7 begins, "Judge not lest ye be judged", but later on in the same passage it says we'll know whether a fruit is good or not by their actions. By judge not, it says that we are not to pull the splinter from another's eye when we have a log in our own. I take this to mean that we are never to think we are better than others, or have "arrived", yet as witnesses, we are to describe what we've observed from the Bible. I'm a great subscriber to "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." I can tell some-body what the Bible says, but ultimately, I can't change the person, and shouldn't try. I plant seeds, God and the person does the rest -- or not -- but I agree with you that God just calls us to "say" or witness. I'll make one of these short yet!! Even AGREEING with you, I can't shut up. Sorry. Bottom line is that, yes, you understood me correctly. God Bless You!! Rhonda Hey Rhonda, don't worry about long posts. Sometimes we can't express ourselves with less than a pagefull You are right of course. Being a witness doesn't mean we just shut up altogether. If we have anything to say to our neighbor, it should be from Love. If We "critisize" someone coming from Love, it is not criticism, it's a genuine feeling of doing good to our fellow man. Naturally we can do it wrong, and often do, and then it really does sound like criticism even if we didn't mean it. We can but pray for God to lead us in our ventures with others. Blessings Hupo - got your name this time. You are so right. The way I've heard it is this: speaking the truth without love is judgmentalism. Speaking love without truth can lead to a loack of discernment. So, the Bible tells us to speak the truth in love -- and leave the results with Him. I agree with you 100% Rhonda Lou

Hi Rhonda and welcome to Worthy I really like your way of putting things. I think you hit the nail on the head. What I see in your post, if you will allow me to attach my interpretation to it, is that we are to be witnesses on this earth. We are not to be judge, jury, solicitor or atorney, but only as witnesses. Witnesses to God's work within and around us. To say it as God has said it to us To pass on His word To be a voice for Yeshua Thanks Rhonda and blessings I apologize to you (and to boot, I can't remember your "name". The other night when i responded to the other person, I tried every way I could think of to respond to you -- but was always stopped by the fact that when I'd hit "reply", I'd see my e-mail. I talk to myself quite a bit, but rarely do I reply to my own e-mails!! I didn't realize that it always shows the thread, and that I just need to go down to where your e-mail is listed. That's why you didn't receive a response -- I just figured I messed something up. You are correct -- we are witnesses -- not judge, jury, solicitor or attorney. However, I do think there is a balance in the Bible, and that balance is called discernment. If we see Christians doing something detrimental to their spiritual health, as witncesses, we can point out what the Bible has to say about the issue, and even eventually taking action as occurred in Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5, Matthew 7 begins, "Judge not lest ye be judged", but later on in the same passage it says we'll know whether a fruit is good or not by their actions. By judge not, it says that we are not to pull the splinter from another's eye when we have a log in our own. I take this to mean that we are never to think we are better than others, or have "arrived", yet as witnesses, we are to describe what we've observed from the Bible. I'm a great subscriber to "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." I can tell some-body what the Bible says, but ultimately, I can't change the person, and shouldn't try. I plant seeds, God and the person does the rest -- or not -- but I agree with you that God just calls us to "say" or witness. I'll make one of these short yet!! Even AGREEING with you, I can't shut up. Sorry. Bottom line is that, yes, you understood me correctly. God Bless You!! Rhonda

God seals us with His Holy Spirit, and that He has an inheritance reserved in heaven which is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away Yes God seals us with his holy spirit, but we can also send this holy spirit away by greiving it. It will never fade away as long as we cooperate with it.

God seals us with His Holy Spirit, and that He has an inheritance reserved in heaven which is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away

Lija, Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I understand that there are many Christians who believe as you do. I believe God is sovereign over avery aspect on the earth He created. I look at pre-destination as just one aspect of that sovereignty. I believe that there is a purpose for every single thing that happens. I don't say that lightly. I've gone through trials myself, which were difficult for me -- and I know that everybody else has also. We've all been through the "How can God let this happen" routine. In fact, it is while going through one of those trials in this last year that I came to realize that God was in control. I find it more comforting to know that there is a reason, whether I know it or not, than to think that God is in heaven, powerless to do anything about my situation until He sees what I'm going to do about my situation. I believe that God loves beyond measure. I also believe that God is just, holy, perfect -- and that He hates sin. I believe that if God has the say so over everything that happens -- just as He decided who would reign when and where, and He puts me here now for a purpose that He wants me to do, that He also governs whether or not I'll be a Christian. I believe that our wanting "self" determination is part of our depraved, old nature. Evidence supports that God is in control, yet we don't like the aspect of somebody else being in control of our "destiny", so we fight the urge to submit in this most crucial question. Yet, I believe God directs and works circumstances so that we accept Him if it is His will, and believe. I have a hard time explaining "perspective", but I see that you also believe that God knows who will accept, and we don't. Maybe that's a good starting place. When we are in a plane above clouds, we can see a clear sky, and act accordingly. When we are on the ground, there are clouds above. God sees everything clearly, and acts according to His perceptions. We don't see everything -- including His actions -- so to us it is cloudy. Both are true; it's a matter of perspective. God sees clearly and acts accordingly with His will in our lives. To us, it is a cloudy day, and we act according to our perspective. We don't see all of His workings in our lives, but we do re-act in response to them, and make the choice He had planned from the start. I'm not sure that makes sense, but that's the best I can do based on Scriptures. As for being saved, or losing salvation, as I stated, the Bible clearly says that God seals us with His Holy Spirit, and that He has an inheritance reserved in heaven which is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away. You can't get around "does not fade away." I also understand that there are Scriptures which seem to indicate otherwise. Both can't be true; neither can be ignored (meaning I can't say, "I do believe this, but I don't believe that.") I must believe them all. So, how do they make sense? I see two options, based on experience, and on Scriptures. I don't know the exact verse, but there is one in John's epistles which speaks of Dymineous (sp) who by leaving the Church, proved he was never part of it. There are many, many people who attend church regularly, who are not actually saved. They know the truth intellectually, but not as heart knowledge -- they don't truly know and love God, they simply know about Him. Again -- not my call, this is between them and God -- but they prove they are not Christians by leaving never to return. There are also those who are Christians but experience a season of sin, like David and Bathsheba. It was a year before David confessed his sin, and Nathan had to point blank tell him, "David, you are that man" (you are the one who sinned). Then, David repented and was restored to fellowship, though consequences of the sin followed him. But, even after the sin, God brought him back. My grandfather got angry with God when he was a child because one of God's ministers said an ungodly thing which resulted in years and years of anger toward God. But, in the final month of his life, he was in the nursing home with another of God's ministers, and he came to repentance shortly before his death. Those who are truly saved are sealed by God and will die as believers. Those who are not truly saved never lost their salvation; they never had it to begin with. Before I go, I want to be perfectly clear that we do not decide who is truly saved and who is not. We are simply called as witnesses: we witness to what God has done in our lives. That plants seeds which God either waters or doesn't. We are never called to see who is truly saved, who is in a season of sin, and who was never chosen. God just tells us to go and make disciples (according to Matthew) and go and bring people to repentance, for the remission of their sins (according to Luke 24). Yet according to Acts 13:47-48 and 2 Timothy 2:25, the repentance we "bring" them to is actually a gift of God. I don't try to figure out where anybody stands in the grant scheme of things, I just love God and share, leaving the results to God and the other person. Rhonda Lou

I've believed God was sovereign before I heard the two sides. It also seemed to me that God, by virtue of choosing some, meant He wasn't choosing others. If there are three people in the room and He chooses me, and they aren't chosen, then, logically, this means they aren't chosen. But, I've truly been studying it in this last year, and have written a 13 page defense of it. Obviously, that is too long to put here. But, suffice it to say that every Christian I know believes that God created every one of us for a purpose, and has given each of us spiritual gifts to carry out that purpose. Every Christian I know believes that God has fulfilled every single prophecy concerning Jesus' first coming, and every single prophecy about nations coming and going. According to Acts 17:26, God has "made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings." This may be for nations, but Pslam 139:15 says, "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them". If God planned when I would live, where I would live, what I would do on earth, creating works for me that I should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10), and gifted me to carry out His purpose for me life, then it stands to reason, He'd also have the say so over whether or not I'd be a Christian. As for eternal security, I can't see God placing His Spirit as a seal "deposit" guaranteeing my salvation, if I could lose it. And 1 Peter 1:4 says I have "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away reserved in heaven" for me. Again, this speaks to eternal security. These passages can not mean other than what they say. If the passages which speak of free will, or loss of salvation cannot be taken any other way, and these can't be taken any other way, then there are contradictions in the Bible. I can't see these being taken any other way. But, while we have a depraved nature before salvation (and are choiceless), after salvation we have an outer, sinful nature (flesh) and an inward new nature (Spirit). We are told to live by the Spirit, put on the new man, walk in the Spirit. After salvation we have a choice. Also, there is the idea that we are to believe in God, which I don't contradict. I just believe that those God calls and chooses will believe, and those He doesn't won't. I believe that, by His grace, from His perspective, it is "predestination"; yet from ours it is a free choice. I heard a story long ago about somebody opening the door to salvation. God was on the other side saying, "Right on time." I believe He steers circumstances which lead to our accepting Him. But we don't know who is called, or what God's time is, so we must be out there spreading His Word because faith cometh by hearing, and others need to hear. Finally, Romans 8:29a, 30 says, "For whom He foreknew...He also predestinated..." Fore-knowing is knowing in advance; pre-destination is taking steps to affect destiny. Rhonda Lou