hepatocyte

I am so used to you disagreeing with me that I did not recognize when you actually agreed with me. I have mixed feelings about "Gay Churches", I certainly recognize that being an openly gay pastor is unbiblical, but I also see where gays and lesbians have been demonized and used as a political whipping post by many in the religious right in this country too, so I think that many of them do genuinely want a relationship with God and want to be part of a community of believers and for them, and thus from their perspective a gay church is their only option. Many times on this forum gays and lesbians have been compared to pedophiles and those who engage in bestiality. If someone were gay or lesbian, what would you have them to do? Go to churches where members compare them to child rapists? Somewhere between churches comparing gays and lesbians to child rapists on one extreme and churches that have openly gay pastors on the other, is that level of common decency and humanity that could be a spiritual home and community for gays and lesbians in this country. Unfortunately, there are not a whole lot of churches in some parts of the country like that, so the only option for gays and lesbians is to join or form a church just for them. Or repent?? Being spiritually reborn is kind of hard when church people constantly compare you to child molesters. Would you go to church a second time after the horrible first experience? That's why I don't go to church. Not because I don't want to worship God, but because I don't want people wanting to perform an exorcism on me, comparing me to pedophiles, and basically treating me, as one member of this forum might say, like a shameful abomination. And no, I don't live in "the lifestyle". That's like giving up air because you smelled pollution. Church is to your spirit as air is to your body. Don't give up...the gates of Hades will not prevail against G-d's true Church. No - I'm just getting an air purifying mask. I wouldn't give up air. That's just silly.

Someone tell me why providing health care to those who otherwise can't afford it is bad...? Aren't we supposed to take care of the sick and the poor? And without good public education, America will fall behind into the Dark Ages! I went to Cornell for undergrad and will be getting a PhD at Princeton. I guess I'm wasting time and money. Bastions of liberalism or not, people still maintain their ability to form their own thoughts and opinions. Higher education doesn't brainwash you. What exactly is the "liberal clap trap" you speak of, Kat?

I am so used to you disagreeing with me that I did not recognize when you actually agreed with me. I have mixed feelings about "Gay Churches", I certainly recognize that being an openly gay pastor is unbiblical, but I also see where gays and lesbians have been demonized and used as a political whipping post by many in the religious right in this country too, so I think that many of them do genuinely want a relationship with God and want to be part of a community of believers and for them, and thus from their perspective a gay church is their only option. Many times on this forum gays and lesbians have been compared to pedophiles and those who engage in bestiality. If someone were gay or lesbian, what would you have them to do? Go to churches where members compare them to child rapists? Somewhere between churches comparing gays and lesbians to child rapists on one extreme and churches that have openly gay pastors on the other, is that level of common decency and humanity that could be a spiritual home and community for gays and lesbians in this country. Unfortunately, there are not a whole lot of churches in some parts of the country like that, so the only option for gays and lesbians is to join or form a church just for them. Or repent?? Being spiritually reborn is kind of hard when church people constantly compare you to child molesters. Would you go to church a second time after the horrible first experience? That's why I don't go to church. Not because I don't want to worship God, but because I don't want people wanting to perform an exorcism on me, comparing me to pedophiles, and basically treating me, as one member of this forum might say, like a shameful abomination. And no, I don't live in "the lifestyle".

I'm just trying to understand why his theology is any different from anyone on this board. Oh, he DEFINITELY does not have the fruits of the Holy Spirit. But if you grow up in a very fundamentalist environment, then what he's saying might resonate. I would be considered "fundamental" but his views do resonate with me at all. What Phelps teaches is not fundamentalism, and it would appreciated if you would not attempt to compare sincere Christians with the lowest common denominator. Fred Phelps is not even a Christian and does not teach biblical Christianity, so there is no comparison. Besides his violence-filled words, why is he not Christian? "it would appreciated if you would not attempt to compare sincere Christians with the lowest common denominator." - Well, sincere Christians on this board probably think I'm a shameful abomination who is oppressed by demons and such. So yes, sometimes I see a hazy connection between FP and SOME members here.

Well, Fred Phelps sounds like a wacko, but lots of gays get AIDS as a result of their own behavior, and suffer greatly and die of it. God isn't killing them, they are killing themselves, but God is allowing it, probably because He is trying to say something to them, and the rest of us. Of course that doesn't mean He loves anyone any less. It seems odd that God would punish virgin girls in Africa and blood transfusion recipients as well. Anything can be viewed as divine judgment (ie: Katrina, September 11, syphilis, earthquakes). I want some sort of proof before I accept that sort of conclusion.

Indeed thank God for Jesus!

I'm just trying to understand why his theology is any different from anyone on this board. Oh, he DEFINITELY does not have the fruits of the Holy Spirit. But if you grow up in a very fundamentalist environment, then what he's saying might resonate.

Cajunboy:::Because God knows, I know and you all know ALL TOO WELL, THAT PEOPLE CAN CHANGE! RIGHT? Aren't we all good examples of that principle? Also, why would "homosexuality" take precidence over any other sin that offends God? So if that's the case and you semi-agree with F.P. , God should want to do the same with all mankind that offends HIM with their sins. I wouldn't doubt one iota that sins as "Adultery" are equally offensive to God. The main thing we all need to focus on right now is "getting right with God." Are you ready for HIM if HE calls us tomorrow? We say, "I believe so?" But are you really sure in your heart of hearts? The concept of change, to me, is abstaining from sin. The change to heterosexuality, on the other hand, is not going to happen to most people. So yes, the change is wanting to obey God and trying to be as sinless as possible. I was just curious what y'all thought (considering most of you are fundamentalist) about Fred Phelps...he's scheduled to protest at my school (Cornell) this Thursday. It's too bad his message is full of condemnation, hate, and violence.

It seems Fred Phelps uses the Bible to defend his views, and I'm postulating there are (secret) Fred Phelps sympathizers out there, possibly on this board. I'm not sure if I can link the website, but if you Google "Westboro Baptist Church", you'll find it. They have a pamphlet on their website titled "God Loves Everyone - The Greatest Lie Ever Told". Interesting read. - Well, basically, it's an outline of God killing lots of people for disobedience. But the same God also gave up Jesus because He so loved the world, which I imagined was full of sin. God was grieved for creating mankind, yet He didn't give up on us. The OT God and NT God seem quite different. I know God doesn't change, but if He took many lives for their sins in the past, then why wouldn't He want homosexuals killed these days? I know believing that Jesus died for our sins, walking humbly with God, and caring for others are enough for salvation, but FP's interpretation of the Bible seems logical. Why WOULDN'T God punish America for tolerating homosexuality? So do you agree, disagree, or partially agree with FP?

well, i was quoting the bible, just forgot to actually quote it and i figured no one took that as literal pee-in-the-pants scared in context of this discussion, some people might interpret everything strictly just so there's no chance that they'll do wrong in God's eyes, especially since choosing to remain unmarried or getting remarried doesn't necessarily mean you love God any more/less.

*heavy sigh* yes, it would. but in case you have missed it, i don't generally let the negative things, such as 'that's disobedience, you'll be punished' motivate me to do what's right. my motivation is the positive stuff... you know, like the joy that comes with walking with God, with relying on God, and having faith in God's promise. what a miserable life people must live if the only reason they can come up with for doing what is right is the fear of doing it wrong. I don't think fear is an illegitimate excuse...we all try to do it right in God's eyes...and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom Of course, fear of doing it wrong can lead to legalism... fear of the Lord. uh, would you mean the kind of fear that is "AWE"? because the fear of the Lord does NOT mean being SCARED of Him. fear of God? No. fear of doing something wrong in God's eye? Yes.

*heavy sigh* yes, it would. but in case you have missed it, i don't generally let the negative things, such as 'that's disobedience, you'll be punished' motivate me to do what's right. my motivation is the positive stuff... you know, like the joy that comes with walking with God, with relying on God, and having faith in God's promise. what a miserable life people must live if the only reason they can come up with for doing what is right is the fear of doing it wrong. I don't think fear is an illegitimate excuse...we all try to do it right in God's eyes...and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom Of course, fear of doing it wrong can lead to legalism...

I guess if they're not diseased, who are we to say an animal is unclean or clean? But chances are some rat out there is carrying a foul disease...

I thought they were two different gifts

Materially, my friends and family are more blessed than me. But I still pray for them.

I had the same question yesterday when I was praying. How do I really love God? I guess it's keeping the commandments, being humble, helping those less fortunate than you, spreading the Gospel, and loving those you really don't want to love.

Did someone refuse to lend you money...?

Share yours! We can argue all we want about speaking in tongues, the rapture, global warming, etc, but let's not forget that caring for the needy and the sick is a sacrifice to God, and He'll be pleased I recently came across www.nothingbutnets.net Basically they want to distribute nets to help prevent malaria (there's more information on the website that describes how it's done). It's easier than administering chloroquine (or similar anti-malarial drugs), and there's no environmental controversy regarding DDT. There have been reports of people selling the nets, but not everything can be 100% effective I suppose. I pray for a malaria vaccine; even with millions of dollars spent on malaria research, we still don't have one.

The idea of morality and the ability to think cannot be explained by genes. Self-awareness cannot be explained by genes. Yet they are inherent. I see nothing about genes in Scripture. Sounds like a man-made concept that attempts to explain the workings of the Great Fall with modern-day science. There is no evidence whatsoever. Flesh does not equal genes.

Science has identified a gene for aggression. So.....RNA/protein cannot be aggressive? Genes did not cause Adam and Eve to be sinful, but sin was infused into them through their having partaken of the wrong tree. Sin is inherent in our nature. It is a part of our make up. If you contend that there is a sin gene, then it must be constitutively expressed. Sin came to mankind because Adam and Even had free will and decided to forget what God said and give in to temptation after prodding by the serpent. There was no disobedience gene that made them disobey God's command. If we used genetic engineering to knock-down this hypothetical gene, then we can be sinless? No, sin is a spiritual concept. Is there a goodness gene? No, sinning and being righteous are products of free will. The gene is associated with aggression - there is no proof that is causes aggression. And no, sequences of nucleotides or amino acids cannot be sinful or aggressive. You are assuming that my argument necessitates Adam and Eve first having that genetic predisposition to sin. Not so. Such would have violated their free will. Post-Adamic humans do not have a will that is pure, this is supported by Scripture and evident in itself. Therefore humans possess an inherent nature that did not exist before the fall. Having such a genetic predisposition is the most logical explanation. Sin cannot be strictly a spiritual "concept" since even children without spiritual guidance or instruction, sin. If sin is the "product" of free will then free will is corrupt. We fight a spiritual battle against sin, not a physical battle. "Having such a genetic predisposition is the most logical explanation." - A genetic predisposition? Overexpression of a protein or temporal regulation of gene expression or disrupting a signaling pathway by aberrant gene expression or gene silencing or point mutation? Sin cannot be explained by genes.

Science has identified a gene for aggression. So.....RNA/protein cannot be aggressive? Genes did not cause Adam and Eve to be sinful, but sin was infused into them through their having partaken of the wrong tree. Sin is inherent in our nature. It is a part of our make up. If you contend that there is a sin gene, then it must be constitutively expressed. Sin came to mankind because Adam and Even had free will and decided to forget what God said and give in to temptation after prodding by the serpent. There was no disobedience gene that made them disobey God's command. If we used genetic engineering to knock-down this hypothetical gene, then we can be sinless? No, sin is a spiritual concept. Is there a goodness gene? No, sinning and being righteous are products of free will. The gene is associated with aggression - there is no proof that is causes aggression. And no, sequences of nucleotides or amino acids cannot be sinful or aggressive.

What brings on disobedience? I didn't say that sins are genes, I said that there is a genetic predisposition to sin. The sin nature has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just suddenly "come upon" people. Why not? Good enough for me. Because genes code for RNA/protein. And RNA/protein cannot be sinful. If genes code for sin, then when do those genes get expressed? And how do the translated proteins result in a sinful nature? How can a protein be inherently sinful? Sin is a spiritual concept - genes did not cause Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Yes, and notice that the recycling sale is no cause for celebration! P.S., For that link to work as copy-n-paste, the tags need to be removed from both ends. . . ooo...I just used the 'Insert Image' icon thingie Diversity and harmony and all that jazz are important, but without Jesus as the cornerstone, all that effort will be for naught. Such a shame... I always wanted to post a sign on that saying "But do you know Jesus?" or something along those lines, but I don't want to break any laws of defacing private property or something like that.

So there's a gene that codes for sin....? Sin is inherent; to call it genetic would be a categorical mistake. Genes are inherent. Do you have the capability to live a sinless life? I'll answer: nobody does. Therefore, it must be something which we all possess from birth, not acquire at some later stage of development. I asked you above if you are a Christian. Could you please respond to that? Sin is a spiritual matter brought on by disobedience. Genes are sequences of nucleotides that God uses for all living things. Hence, you can't compare sin with genes. They're in different categories. Roses are red. Blood is red. Doesn't mean they can be compared the same way. "Do you have the capability to live a sinless life?" -Of course not. And I never said or implied that it's possible. "Therefore, it must be something which we all possess from birth, not acquire at some later stage of development." -We're born into sin. We're born with genes. But you can't say sin is encoded into genes. "I asked you above if you are a Christian. Could you please respond to that?" -I'll respond by saying I believe that Jesus, the Son of God, died for our sins and He's the only way to heaven.

So there's a unitarian "church" around where I live...and I saw this posted outside. First of all, they call it "celebration" and not "worship". No mention of Jesus anywhere, no mention of God, zip, zilch. Then notice August 19...Recycling sale?!