turtletwo

A big thanks to ALL of you who took the time to try to reassure me I should stay at Worthy... For each one of you has added your unique caring input to this post of feeling that I don't fit here. You see, this particular time of year only intensifies my sense of not belonging. It is extremely hard to feel unwanted by your entire family...just because some stupid illness changed me to a shadow of my former self. Apparently, my unsupportive family views me as 'damaged goods' now and has no desire to associate with me ... But I can't comprehend the heartlessness of just 'up and throwing a family member away' simply because they fell victim to something awful... namely, a disease which they can't even control... I guess that my severely deteriorated looks from this and my needing help with so much now is a repulsive combo. Christmas is by far the hardest holiday of all, because I am unable to even be with anyone who loves me. Unfortunately, I still can remember our ancient get togethers... that were once so special to me, but now bittersweet. They gnaw at me in a brutal way, which mere words can't describe. Other than intense breaking of the heart or perhaps an ongoing churning in the pit of my stomach. The long gone memories of my happy pre-dystonia life haunt me like a distant dream that I honestly wish I could just forget. Because they only bring on confused tears... And of course, the thought of this possibly being my dad's last Christmas ever, due to the liver cancer and I can't even be with him, seems especially unfair! I hope that this sheds some light on why I feel exceptionally down lately... I am just weary of this life and long for Heaven. If I have been a blessing to some of you here, then perhaps my life hasn't been entirely in vain???? Thanks for your many kind replies here on the open forum. And being so lonely, I am always touched and glad to welcome any invitations from those who TRULY desire to pm with me. But so many times I would pm at length (with much effort and type one fingered), only to get no pm in return. That would hurts and puzzle me. So if you do offer to be my pm pal, please be sure you really want that... ( Unfortunately- I can't do the chat room, because any scrolling of words bring on eye spasms. ) Thanks again. And as soon as I'm physically and emotionally able, I will be in touch with those of you who say you actually want my pms. God bless, TT (turtletwo)

I have been wondering why I still don't fit in here very well, even after all this time... ( And yes, I have made genuine attempts to write people and reply to posts. So please don't say it's that. Only a couple folks have even noticed.... I praise God for them!) I feel like an outsider. 'Always on the outside, looking in'. Even my topics are unpopular and barely replied to. When I have ventured outside of just the prayer request forum. Ex: prophecy. Which really does interest me. Some said they thought discussing parables was pointless. Though I obviously disagree...especially when they have to do with the end times. ( Others acted like I was a moron for even bringing up the subject of the Ten Virgins parable... Like it is self explanatory. All I am trying to do guys, is become more actively involved in discussions. To be more a part of this ministry...Isn't that commendable? I wish I were healthier, because then I gladly would have participated in the prayer week. But I didn't think my being unavailable on my sickest days would have been fair to the partner I'd be assigned, so I opted out. (How did that prayer week go, by the way? ) Anyway, I hope my usual transparency isn't making anyone angry. But coupled with so many diseases (between mine and my family's), this is another source of depression for me. Rejection. My feelings are fragile and raw, so please do be "gentle as a dove" as Jesus put it. I ask nicely that you don't blow me off or be harsh. Okay? Because I seriously can't handle that treatment right now. I am too much feeling I wish I could just die. And I'm not being a drama queen. I mean that. I am deeply depressed. I don't even have anyone who wants to spend Christmas with me and am feeling sad enough about that. That's why I at least wish I could fit in better at Worthy somehow. I base my question about not fitting in here on the way that many of the folks at Worthy are 'tight with' each other and hit it off so well. They are comrades and true pals...something I long for! But I, on the other hand seem to 'rub people the wrong way' a lot, honestly not meaning to! I am just being myself. Had I come here years back and acted totally different than my true personality...would I have found my niche at Worthy by now?? But then that wouldn't have been real, would it? Not to mention that it is a form of lying and deception. (Shallowness, at best...) The problem with forums is that people can always put on acts and bravados and basically be whoever they want to be. Or who they think others might want them to be...I guess I just don't know how to do that. Nor do I have the energy to, being ill as I am. Besides which, I feel if people don't accept me for who I am...then what's the point? That's not a TRUE friend. Sorry. But the bottom line is that this is the way God made me. ( I wish I could be liked, even though I am more serious minded than most of you are probably used to on forums. Sorry if that makes me a drag to have around. Maybe someone should take a poll here and see how many would prefer me to stop posting at Worthy. A well meaning person said that coming to Fellowship Hall might help. And I really wanted to give it a go... So I went over there to read a little of the interaction. But I just can't get into the giddiness that often is engaged in there. I would be speechless. Because it's simply not who I am...The Scriptures say God made the members of the body of Christ to be different, even as parts of the physical body are. Think about how unique and very different from others some of our physical body parts are... So why can't that be understood in the case of me? So what if I stand out a bit because few here post about struggling with chronic illness and having constant trials? Sure, that's not pleasant. A bummer or downer to read... But I still need to be loved! And all the more, really. The history? I first came to Worthy after battling a sudden and terrible physical disease, all alone...Because I thought it would help me cope to seek out fellow believers. I naively thought they would gladly embrace me, pray with me and offer words of comfort. And some did, thank God! ( But many ignored me, as though I were raining on their parades or something!) Because of the barrage of severe trials befalling my family and I, it is only human to feel depressed. For me to be joking around is a real stretch which I have much trouble doing...especially NOW. In the face of people I love at risk of dying and the doctors having given up on treating my own disease. How do you sincerely 'put on a happy face' when you are in excruciating pain daily? I can't seem to master it. And I have tried last month at Worthy to do this. To get outside my own problems and minister to others hurting here. But few wrote back to even acknowledge it. So I shrugged my shoulders and figured it must not have made a dent. Because when some have ventured out to be compassionate to me, I definitely make it a point (sick as I am) of thanking them either openly or via pm. I realize I tend to post negatively a lot and maybe this has 'turned people off' to pursuing friendships with me... Not just superficial, open forum ones. But deeper, pm ones. I have even noticed some of you here saying to others "call me up." Nobody sure ever cared enough to offer me their number! So obviously those who have exchanged their personal phone numbers here have the magic touch. They have found the secret on how to form friendships. God knows I have been kind and sent encouraging messages both on the open forums and through pms. They say 'to have friends, you need to be one'. I really have tried, whether you believe me or not. Those of you who have been the recepients of my caring messages know I am telling the truth. Why have I stayed this long? Well, I need a safe place to vent, fellowship and am physically unable to attend a local church. My goals in joining back in 2007 were to be ministered to and minister to others by encouraging. To be prayed for and to pray for others. I still have those same goals. But am I even WANTED here? Be honest. I am afraid to leave because of the extreme matters that need prayer...like dad's liver cancer.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.

The link did work and the words were a blessing! Comforting, encouraging lyrics... I could hear the tunes in my head as I read the ones by the Talbots and Al Denson ...So I know I heard them years ago. But somehow the words never hit home in the way they do now. Thanks.

I appreciate all your helpful advice. Starting off by telling me to cut myself some slack (that being concerned my daughter arrived safely in an unsafe vehicle is normal and okay...) That was so important for me to hear, because I do have a problem blaming myself for everything that goes wrong. The precious Scripture verse about there being no condemnation to those in Christ is one I'd forgotten for awhile, until God brought it back to me again just now through your post... God's Word is so comforting! As for my dad, I will definitely apologize and be bold in my sharing of the Gospel with him. You are right about my daughter. Her safety is a huge concern of mine. She did call the police on him once and even moved away from him for awhile. She came back to the area where my family lives. I was elated. And we were finally able to talk freely! (on my dad's phone.) But the house is so full over there she said she felt she needed to get a little apartment of her own. So she did for awhile. But she became so depressed and lonely. Sadly, she went back to her boyfriend. I don't know what kind of powers he holds over her! He must be a smooth talker with her and deceptive, but I see him as a wolf seeking prey to devour. Thanks for your prayers.

Amen. Thank you for this prayer, nebula... I really needed that. And I prayed it along with you, as tears streamed down my face. You listed strongholds I do battle against frequently. I know this is a spiritual warfare. Because Jesus wants my family to be His, (which naturally means that Satan is doing all he can to see that this does not happen.) What saddens me the most is that some progress was finally happening both in their lives and mine...Like the blessing of the phone conversation my daughter and I had when she called me from my dad's house. It was so exciting that God was opening up doors for me to talk with my family about Him. And He was dealing with all of us...drawing us closer to Himself both spiritually and through circumstances. So God has been faithful. Praise His Name! But Satan has vigorously counter-attacked these victories...if that makes any sense.

I am notorious for making wrong decisions! I blunder a LOT... I would even go so far as to say it's more often I do mess up than I don't. I'm under guilt and fear much of the time, due to this. ( Satan sure knows our vulnerabilities. And plays on them, every chance he gets. ) Friday, I made a call to my dad to see if he was feeling better and keeping any food down. That in itself was stupid, because I, of all people should know that when ill...sleep is a must. Anyway, I apologized for waking him. Then, I asked if my daughter had called there at all to say she had got back home (quite a distance ...to her town, safely.) You see, her car was acting up real bad and I was concerned she may have broken down or got stranded somewhere. ( She had spent Thanksgiving with the family, stayed overnight there and was heading back sometime Friday.) My dad said no, seeming slightly perturbed. Maybe still disoriented from his disturbed sleep or from his dementia... I would have called her myself, but her boyfriend - who has serious mental issues and was furious that she'd spent Thanksgiving with her family ( he wants her all to himself! ) had sent me a very nasty email. The final words being, "Never call my house again!" He pays the phonebill, as she has no income of her own to have a separate phone... So I was cruelly forbidden to have any contact via phone with my own daughter! Just because he has issues of both paranoia and possessiveness! So next I did something even WORSE... I asked dad to talk to my brother's girlfriend. I told her I was wondering if my daughter had maybe called her ( to let her know she'd arrived home okay.) This led to my explaining I'd been banned from calling her up anymore ... To which she said she "wanted to give him a piece of her mind." But I begged her not to... Because I wanted NOT to cause any stress for my very ill DAD (who lives with my brother's girlfriend and brother) nor any problems for my DAUGHTER. So then she promised she would just nicely ask to speak with my daughter, saying we were both concerned if she'd arrived home okay. And that I'd been harshly informed by the boyfriend that I could no longer call her there, so wondered if there was any other way of reaching her. Well, my dad must have caught on ( and viewed me as troublemaking. ) Because at the end of the talk between me and my brother's girlfriend, she asked dad if he wanted to talk to me. I heard an angry "NO" from him in the background! Dad is very protective of my adult brother, still looking upon him as a child...( and not wanting this to cause friction between my brother and his girlfriend. No quarrels.) Yep, it sounds like a soap opera I know. But the saddest parts are that my daughter and i had a nice, long conversation on the phone on Thanksgiving. I felt closer to her than I have in ages. And now this will probably cause her to be mad at me! ( I'm sure it likely led to a big fight between my daughter and her boyfriend, once she realized he said I was not to call there ever.) And I certainly don't want to upset my dad, who has heart troubles and now liver cancer. Knowing that dad's time left on this earth may be short, I've been extra loving to him via phone. And planning to mail him letter soon to express how much he means to me, along with a Gospel presentation. So of course Satan doesn't want this and won't just stand by idly...assigning demons to cause a rift between me and dad. As well as another between me and my daughter. What do I do now?? What started out as me just concerned that she was safe due to a dangerous car ended in all this turmoil. But God is bigger and I must believe He will somehow work this all out! Please pray with me on this? Also, how do I forgive myself? I have a harder time forgiving me than even my enemies. I am so tired of botching things and making wrong decisions! Even when I mean well... Sigh. Sometimes it really seems like I do more harm than good in this life. If any of you have this same struggle, how do you handle it? Any advice would sure be appreciated. God bless all you who were patient and waded through this long post... ( I stink at keeping things condensed.)

How true, AnotherTraveler! I will definitely be praying for Netanyahu ( who I always found sincere, likable, respectable and believable) as well as for the peace of Jerusalem, of course.

Dear Rebekah, Thanks for the suggestion. I am happy that the transplants worked out for Dee. Praise God that she is doing fine! My two concerns for my dad, though are: that he is so elderly and he has a fragile heart (due to multiple bypasses over the years. So the doctors saw this as a big risk and were opposed to cutting him open for his other cancer...the lung one. ) But transplants are something worth considering, if need be. Hopefully, he can be re-evaluated for a second opinion soon! Right now I guess that the biggest determining factor is if the cancer spread into the bloodstream or remained contained within the liver. Once in the blood, it is really serious because the cells multiple rapidly and affect other organs! ( Especially if it really turns out to be phase 4, which is one of the worst...) Keep praying, everyone. God bless.

I agree totally with Morning Glory. I personally wish everyone would give Israel a breather and stop ganging up on her. Netanyahu is possibly afraid right about now, because Israel desperately needs allies to offset all the nations bent on destroying her. The United States used to be her friend (or at least did a good job of pretending so for years...) And I believe that is one of the main reasons God blessed America and is starting to pull back His Hand of blessing now! That, and our current rebellion towards God by few truly seeking His Face intently, the ongoing slaughter of unborn babies, many embracing so called 'alternate lifestyles' and the churches themselves even letting elements of the New Age Movement creep in. I have watched Netanyahu a bit and was convinced he was 'one of the good guys', deeply loving the land and diligently fighting for it to remain Israel's God-given birthright... But now, if he starts to buckle like this...what shall become of Israel? ...Is all this prophecy coming to pass? I wonder. Is this eventually the lead-in to the signing of that Scripturally warned peace treaty with Antichrist and the 7 year Tribulation? (The time of Jacob's Trouble? ) Thanks for sharing this important information with us, HIS girl.

Hi. Does anybody out there know about liver cancer? My dad was just diagnosed with it at one medical facility and he is going to another one for a second opinion. And a biopsy. If you or a loved one has been through this cancer, I'd sure appreciate hearing your personal experiences. Also, anyone who works in the medical field and has knowledge that way. Links to good medical sites are always welcome too...Thanks.

Praise God! How exciting for these brothers and sisters finally going to their home where they belong! How true, mg and elizabetht...no tribe is lost to the Almighty One who chose Israel as his beloved. In the Lord's perfect timing all His prophecies shall be fulfilled. It is Israel that is always in the center of His plan, for one day Yeshua shall rule from the throne in Jerusalem. How awesome! Maranatha...Come quickly Lord Jesus. It is Israel that is the apple of the Lord's eye...and it is good for us to remember her in prayer.

Thanks mg. You pose a very good question. My guess is that people refuse to believe in Hell being a real place because it gives them this false sense of ease that they can live however sinfully and selfishly they choose! Deluding themselves that there will be no future consequences to face...Other people who might actually believe in Hell somewhere deep down inside are blocking the thought out of their mind... ( for the same reasons. Worldliness, vanity, etc.) But Scripture warns that, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of a living God." I would add my comment that it is also a glorious thing to fall into the Hands of the Loving God, who loved us enough to die for OUR sins. There are nailprints for these unsaved people in those precious Hands of Jesus! I have no idea why this does not move them. I can only suppose that those so hardened to His act of supreme Love don't want to think they will one day give an account for the way they rejected Jesus ( and basically were their OWN god! )...I also think that they love this present life too much to even stop and think about the afterlife. For example: the younger generation. They often feel they are indestructible and invincible. Want to 'whoop it up' and 'have fun while they can.' Some have expressed how they will repent 'someday,' while on their deathbeds... But statistically I wonder just how many folks are fortunate enough to ever get that chance? Death is not JUST for the elderly. There are always drunken driving accidents and overdoses of 'recreational' illegal drugs that can cause premature death to the young. MorningGlory, I definitely empathize with you about the stubborn unsaved ones! I share your frustration in witnessing to those who will not budge spiritually, (sometimes for years! Even though we keep right on praying for their hearts of ice to melt.) As for your sadness in your comment about how maybe some really CAN'T get Saved, I have had that same thought... Including pertaining to my own family, who keeps running and 'putting Jesus off'. So I can only cling to the Scripture verse in 2 Peter 3:9 about how "God is not willing that ANY should persh, but that ALL should come to repentance." To me, that means everybody He created. I call that my verse of hope So I hope it helps everyone who struggles ( like I myself do, at times ) with wondering if some folks truely just CAN'T accept God...

The Bible warns of a One World Church that will exist during the Tribulation. A popular teaching already is spreading like wildfire that 'all roads lead to God.' This is, and will be embraced by many people. But it is a trick of the enemy of our souls! Because Jesus Christ emphatically said regarding Himself, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life... No man comes unto God the Father except through ME." He is the Door we must enter in, in order to be Saved and enter Heaven. I think there is a mass deception by Satan going on right now, in preparation for the eventual One World Church, that will rule the world. I've noticed how compromising ones once-held firm beliefs in ALL OF the Bible today is popular. Because standing by those 'old fashioned' ways...such as proclaiming the entire Gospel boldly and calling sins sin are often termed as unloving and arguementative. The devil is shrewd and knows it is easier to just tone things down in the name of peace. But it is ultimately false 'peace' that will usher in the Anti-Christ! The lifestyle of holiness God clearly instructs us to pursue in His Bible will be forgotten in the name of unity...And I believe that the only way that this can be accomplished is by watering down the Word of God. In other words: to avoid preaching on anything offensive, to twist the verses to your own meaning, use only the pleasant passages that would be in the ear tickling style or sometimes avoid using the Scriptures altogether!... Reading out of books men authored rather than the Bible, which God authored. It is sad, but true. But I deefinitely see it as a sign of the times. As the soon return of Jesus. We were warned in Scripture to be ready at all times...to stay right with God. There is the verse that says, "When these things begin to happen, LOOK UP...for your redemption draws near." We are told to take comfort in this and it is called our 'blessed hope'. I know that on the one hand, it is definitely troubling and unsettling to see people turning away from the truths they once knew...I do feel the same way about that. It is somewhat scary and truely sad. That is why we are told by God in Scripture to "Hold fast to that which you first believed." and assured by the Lord that, "He is able to keep you from falling." I hope these verses are of some help.

Just start in the state SEPARATED FROM GOD, take the exit to NEVER RECEIVED CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR, this should lead you to a sign with DEAD-END (arrows pointing left or right) turn either way, it will still bring you into the town of EVERLASTING..you will know you are at the right place, cause all the streets start with EVERLASTING...FIRE, PUNISHMENT, OUTER DARKNESS, DESTRUCTION, etc...jotful I agree with jotful's vivid description. It is very biblical. There are plenty of verses that make it clear that Hell is real, everlasting punishment. Jesus must have found this a very serious topic. Because He spoke about it more than even about Heaven. To me, this says He does NOT want anyone to go to this horrid place. But sadly, they can (and they will) if they so choose... by spurning God's amazing Grace. He offers the free gift of Salvation to anyone who asks in faith and recieves it, repenting of their sinful ways. Surrendering their heart to Him and wanting to live the rest of their life for Him.) To me, that is a given. Not only would I serve Him to escape Hell, but I delight in the thought of worshipping forever such a loving Savior who died for me and rose triumphantly up in Heaven.... And up there in Heaven, there will be no limitations. No distractions, no time restraints, no quarreling, no sin, no devil, no sorrow and no sickness. We will no longer have ANYTHING that can come between us and our blessed Lord! So as wonderful as praising Him here on earth is, just imagine the sheer bliss of the highest form of worship... in eternity! Such a stark contrast to the futures of those who go to Hell.

Makes sense. This example brings we humans, the Lord, plus Satan all together in one event! That is one that would never have occured to me until you pointed it out... So EricH, I appreciate you bringing it to our attention. How I praise God for the enlightenment that He brings through His "Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth"! These next remarks are just thoughts that popped into my head and could be offbase. So if I am, I apologize in advance. Because I sure don't want to offend or mislead anyone. But I'm curious if these ideas make sense, in light of all this. And I am putting them out there, just in case they are of any help. And if not, please disregard them. Either way, opinions on them would be welcome...First, the Old Testament. I wonder if Pharoah and his heart hardening would fit in here at all. For there are some verses that specifically say God hardened his heart. Yet there are others that seem to imply that he was a hard hearted man, anyway. Even after the horrid plagues and finally the death of his own son, Pharoah chased down the children of Israel...obviously never having learned his lesson about the power of the one and only true God. This proves he had a wicked heart of ongoing rebellion, yet God used just that to deliver Israel from the Egyptions! Since God is timeless and knows all things, he knew this Pharoah was one to play a role in this monumental deliverence. So did God make him do it or would he have anyhow, being a prime candidate and so abusive by nature? Could it not be both things working together at play here?... And in the New Testament, there was the need of someone to betray Jesus ... in order for Him to die upon the cross (and rise again) on behalf of our sins. God could see into the future and into the heart of this greedy man Judas, who pretended to love the Lord but then sold him out for mere silver! So did God cause Judas to do this act? Or was Judas just the type of man suited for the job, anyway? The two can be compatible and make sense, in my opinion. Well, that is my humble opinion anyway... My examples are not as good as EricH, but if anyone has thoughts on these two persons (Pharoah and Judas), I'd like to hear your input on it. Feel free to correct me, if I need it... God has been showing me that we Christians must all be open to 'constructive criticism' ... as we call it. ( The equivalent of the biblical "speaking the truth in love.")

Thank you so much for clarifying this, EricH. I never heard the term duality reductionalism (before you mentioned it) ... But your explaination made sense and gave me some peace of mind. This is a doctrinal difference which I have struggled with in much confusion (and at times anguish, thinking that perhaps I was one created to never go to Heaven. That God did not want me. I based that on Him not healing me of my neurological disease, silly as that sounds perhaps. Because my denomination I grew up in was very anti-sickness. And the most radical offshoots of it make out that it is actually a sin to be sick! I'm sure you are aware of that Scripture which says God "does not hear the prayers of the wicked." So I figured that must be the reason for my disease never going away. God still viewed me as the wicked (because maybe He had never actually imputed Christ's Righteousness to me.) Or maybe somehow my sincere prayer to get Saved in my youth was still missing something important and had never produced real Conversion in me. Or my various times of backsliding had caused me to lose that Salvation I originally had as a girl. I even considered at times that I must have commited the unpardonable sin. Hope against hope, though ..I kept re-praying,"Lord- I do repent of ANYTHING that might be blocking me being genuinely Yours." I just wanted to make sure! Still, this verse about Him deafening His hearing of the prayers of the wicked haunted me and I kept assuming this was the reason I couldn't get healed either supernaturally or even led by God to decent medical care...It was a vicious cycle. The more I cried out to the Lord in prayer for my healing and the longer I remained so utterly ill, the more I questioned if I was not truely Saved or in fact one of the wicked or lost...And started to seriously wonder if I was doomed to spend eternity without Christ! That made me shudder and tremble. Such a horrible thought! It is bad enough to suffer terribly in this earthly life... With disease, serious family problems, etc. But it was absolutely overwhelming to think of me suffering true Hell (the place those not in Christ will go)...forever!) I was personally raised up in a church that taught only free will. So I never even knew that Calvinism existed. This (what my church taught...which was a form of Arminianism) was a more comforting position to me, in the way that everyone could know they were Saved because they had chosen to follow Christ. And I just knew deep down in my heart that even though I sometimes struggled with God's sovereign choices ( an example being His allowing intense sufferings )... there would never come a time I would not want Jesus. I gave my life to him when I was young. He (and wanting to serve Him ) are all I have ever known! I feel like Peter when the Lord asked the disciples,"Will you walk away from me too?" and Peter replied, "Lord to whom else would we go? For You alone hold the words of truth." But back to what EricH said...As far as pure Arminianism, I don't totally agree with it. Even though I had more peace with free will (until about a year ago, when I discovered Calvinism and started learning up on it. I rented a lengthy dvd on the subject, which in some ways gave me a headache as it seemed to make the sweet simplicity of the John 3:16 Gospel too complex... But it did produce nagging doubts about my own soul's destiny, which I did try over and over to resolve. Finally today I think I get it, praise God! Salvation is Grace, which I did nothing to earn. Even repentance is not a work. It is my response to God's gracious invitation... I would compare it to a man asking a woman he loves to marry him. She will either turn him down or she'll gladly recieve that love being extended to her. It is simply a response. Not a work. For God wants those who choose to love Him...not robots who HAD to say so no to Him, because God foreordained it. The Bible says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So we are ALL wanted. Praise God! I confess it frightened & deeply saddened me to think about an all loving God predestinying some to Heaven, others to Hell. Naturally- I didn't want my family, myself, etc to be in that unfortunate last group! That's why I got so angry with God for awhile. I thought,"Great! Not only does He want me to be in pain on this earth, but forever and ever...in pain FAR worse. " But now I see it was Satan trying to mentally and spiritually torment me with such dark thoughts. So if anybody would ask if I was an Arminian or a Calvanist, I would have to say neither...I am somewhere in the middle. Or better yet, a fusion of the biblical truths of both. If I am understanding EricH correctly, he is saying some spiritual matters are too deep to understand fully. They are God's mysteries and we can not wrap our puny human minds around them, to make them more logical to us. We must just accept them by faith. For after all, the verse that says we are Saved by Grace also says through faith. And the Scripture says that we are to come to Him like little children, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven. There are certain doctrines we simply find mind boggling. Like the Trinity. Yet we accept it by faith, because Scripture states it as a fact. Perhaps some things just aren't meant to be comprehended. After all, we are just creations whileHe is God. His mental capacities outweigh ours by a lot! "His ways are higher than ours." as Scripture declares. Sorry for such a long post, but had to share my relief and joy on God's helping me to see the light, through this thread. Plus, I hoped that my own struggles through the journey of spiritual struggle with this doctrine might help someone else.

This story about the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) returning and the virgins with their lamps has been interpreted in several different ways. Some believe that the ones who were left behind were never really Saved in the first place. ( But to that interpretation, others have said if the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, how could that be? Because if they had the oil, then that means they would have had God's Spirit...making them true Christians. Not just the 'in-name-only, religious type'. ) To which others have argued that: No, they were once Christians, but what happened is that over time they stopped looking for Him... Meaning they put the Lord Jesus out of their lives as being no longer important in their priorities ( not # 1) and that is why their oil supply was dwindling. In other words, they gave up on Jesus's return by backsliding... became lukewarm and were in essence "spit out of His mouth." ( As is mentioned in Revelation. That verse appears to mean being rejected by Him ETERNALLY) and also "Depart from Me, for I never even knew you! "... that verse where Jesus sends some professing Christianity (perhaps never really Saved, though others would argue the opposite) into Hell... Other interpretations out there are that the foolish virgins are still eternally Saved, but they are kept from participating in the joy of the wedding feast Jesus gives for His followers. Others say a 'mid-tribulation situation' happens, where the foolish virgins suffer the first half of that awful 7 year period. While the wise virgins are blessed to partake of the wedding feast during that time. ( Having already been raptured up into Heaven, pre-tribulation.) So I am asking what is your interpretation of the meaning of the virgins / lamps story? I think this is something important we should ponder, because first of all everything thats in God's Word matters or He wouldn't have place it there... Secondly, I personally believe the return of Yeshua is close at hand, so therefore Jesus wants us to understand. I know I desire to. What troubles me somewhat is that the virgins were supposed to go 'get enough oil' for the wicks on their lamps to be trimmed, yet failed to do so. But if the oil is the Holy Spirit, how is Jesus meaning for us to go get more of Him? Because I know He enters all Christians when they become Born again. Any thoughts on how we get more oil? And if this story has anything to do with Salvation. What IS the actual meaning? Thanks for any and all input on this...

I had no idea you were going through all this until today! (Due to my eyes acting up if I am at the computer too long, I don't even read this particular forum. This is actually my first time to read any post in this category, in fact. Perhaps I should visit it more often! And now I see why the Lord led me here. Because He knew you needed both encouragement and prayer. ) I commend you for making sure you were Saved, if having any doubts at all. I always think that when it comes to eternity...better safe than sorry! I know that the devil is relentless whenever someone attempts to get close to God or do anything of eternal significance ( like trying to lead people to Christ.) MG, you know that I've "got your back" and you've got my prayers...

"Birthday blessings to you!" ...I'd sing that to you if I could sing, but believe me...you'd not find that a blessing. LOL. So I'm going to peek on your profile so I don't have to sing, asking that part "How old are you?" and get the age 14.

Hi again. Sure hope this turns out to be the right place to post this particular topic. I already posted under the doctrinal forum ( in order to bring my mom's specific spiritual situation and beliefs into this.) I also tried to start a "book discussion" under the general discussion forum. I know with a site as large as Worthy, we MUST have many readers of Christian books here. ( I'd be searching harder myself for the correct book, if I didn't have a physical disease which prevents it! I can only be on the computer for short times so that limits my googling.) That is why I am appealing to you guys and gals for advice. My mom is elderly and in a nursing home. She loves to read to help pass the time. I mail her Janette Oak books, mostly because someone gave me a whole box full. But as she draws nearer to eternity what she really needs now is the Gospel in a story form ( fiction or better yet, a true Conversion story ). A PAPERBACK that isn't too huge that explains the Gospel. Clearly, simply, yet still thoroughly... including the need for repentance.) My mom basically thinks "loving God" is enough, no matter what you believe doctrinally or what lifestyle you live. In other words, she thinks all roads lead to God. Christians know that the Bible says it's a narrow road and few there be that find it ( and of course that all "gods" are not the true ONE.) In other words, mom is a victim of the ecumenical movement (mush gospel ) Oprah Guru weirdish stuff. And I really feel God wants me to send her a book to help her understand the truth, according to God's Word...as to how to become a Christian. She has expressed concerns about her soul's final destiny. So any book ideas? ( If you want, you could read the other 2 posts I mentioned earlier for her dillema. Under doctrinal and general discussion. ) Please pray for mom's Salvation?

Hi. I would like to start a discussion about Christian (story type) books. I am personally unable to read books myself (for health reasons), but my mom just loves the Janette Oak (fiction) books that I mail her at her nursing home. Praise God, I was given a whole box of them from somebody who got them from a church rummage sale. I first learned of this author through the "love comes softly" series, aired on the Hallmark channel. But even though God was a definite theme of these family- friendly movies, the Gospel wasn't as much addressed as mom needs. I hear Janette Oak's books are much more spiritual than the movies, yet I am searching for something stronger still. Something that is thorough...But not in a preachy, theological style of explaining the Gospel For that would only go over my mom's head. If it were a true Conversion story that took time to delve into these matters in a way which an elderly woman could grasp...THAT is what I am looking for. Tall order, I know. Easier said, than done. But my mom's soul is at stake and so this matters a lot to me. Any ideas? I'd be grateful. P.S. I gave the spiritual background on my mom and her confusion issues underneath the Doctrinal forum...simply because doctrine is so vital to anybody's Salvation! If the teachings are incomplete or false, so might the "conversion" be!! Which of course I don't want for mom...Anyone interested in helping me with this situation, could you please read my post under the doctrinal forum to give you some insight into mom's life? Thanks!

In these sad spiritual days with apostasy swirling all around us, understanding and presenting the true Biblical Gospel is getting challenging. I have two elderly parents who "just don't get it," mostly due to improper and insufficient teaching about Salvation in their churches. My dad comes from a Catholic background where he was brainwashed that he must live the best he can to please God. Then hopefully in the end God will say "Your good outweighs the bad" and maybe let him into Heaven. Poor dad said to my daughter, "I think I've lived a pretty good life and would go to Heaven." But then after a troubled, telling pause he added, "At least I HOPE I don't go to Hell..." My mom comes from a Pentecostal background where the gifts of the Spirit often take center stage. Many there believing that IF they have spoke in tongues, they MUST therefore be a Christian. (The danger of putting the bigger emphasis on the gifts rather than on Conversion.) As a youth, I had witnessed my mom speak in tongues on several occasions, while being prayed over by persons surrounding her in the front of our Assembly of God church. But at home her lifestyle was very ungodly and didn't show the fruits (of really being Born Again. ) Recently, she said to me that she "hoped" she would go to Heaven. So just as with my dad, she has some uncertainty about her soul's final destiny too. She has said flippant comments like,"What does it matter if your dad is a Catholic and I am a protestant? What matters is loving God." This sounds nice. But doctrine IS very important! That is why I've posted this under the doctrinal forum. Correct theology and a yielded heart= (results in ) Salvation!! Right? But how do you help people realize this fact?? My mom has watched tv in the nursing home that is possibly messing with her head in recent times. That popular talk show garbage ( EX: Oprah ) where guests are mouthpieces for the devil...saying that there are many paths to God. A flat out lie, since Jesus stated "I am the Way. No man comes to the Father BUT BY ME." The new spiritualism is all around us...poisoning people's minds and confusing them. Even getting into many evangelical circles! I was floored when Billy Graham said to Robert Schueller that there will be those in Heaven who arrive there by differing paths but have come to God and served him by assorted names. When Scripture clearly states, "There is NO OTHER NAME under heaven by which we must be Saved" but that of Jesus Christ. Buddah, Krishna etc are not the same God...or even gods at all. We must call upon the saving Name of Jesus Christ. Such mass deception convinces me we are definitely near the rise of Anti-Christ. This, combined with the serious health problems of my parents and myself ( some potentially life threatening ) have caused me a sense of urgency to do anything I can to bring them to Christ while there is still time. But we are all 3 way too ill with diseases for any IN DEPTH witnessing. Up in years now, their mental understanding is on a simplistic level anyhow. And I'm withering away myself physically, which therefore clouds my mind and prevents elaborate gospel presentations. My mom, thank God loves to read. Both true stories or fiction. I mail her Janette Oak books. But lately I feel God leading me to buy her a simple PAPERBACK book that explains the Gospel in a BALANCED way. Not "Easy Believism" (the modern "watered-down gospel" that tickles ears)...which often actually produces counterfeit conversions! So this book Mom needs HAS to address the subjects of a real Hell and the need for repentance. But not in an over-the-top dramatically scary way (since she is in elderly and frail. ) The book must include God's Grace and Eternal Life being a free gift recieved by faith by putting your trust in Christ as Lord. I am having such a hard time finding such a book ( especially not as a sermonish preaching theology style, but in a short story form ) that covers ALL the necessary elements of how to become a Christian! And searching online is so tough for me with my visual problems, related to my Dystonia. And what of my dad, who can't seem to ever get past his childhood Catholic ideas of "good-working his way to Heaven?" Sadly, he is not one who will read a book. Even the Bible... Is there any tract ( large print ) or any ideas on how to help him understand GOD'S GRACE, HIS SUBSTITUTION FOR US ON THE CROSS, OUR GRATITUDE FOR THIS AND THE NATURAL REPENTANCE THAT SHOULD FOLLOW OUR SEEING OUR WRETCHEDNESS? Like the man in Jesus' parable who beat his breasts in the Bible and cried out, "God be Merciful to me a sinner!" My dad has trouble confessing he is a sinner. I think that is what blocks his Salvation. ( Along with being told by the nuns and priests that he can never know for SURE if he will go to Heaven.) Surely someone out there knows of a good paperback story form book to help my mom see the Gospel. And are there any ex- Catholics that can give me tips for helping dad?...Thanks.

I learned recently of a day on the Hebrew calendar called the 9th of Av. Supposedly, this is a day that many bad events of strong significance have befallen the Jews through the centuries. Is this historically true? And if so, is there any reason why this date in particular? Is today or tomorrow when it arrives in 2009? Sorry to bombard you with these three questions. But I thought I read somebody post about watching the news and paying particular attention to what occurs with Israel on the 9th of Av. Accidentally stumbling across that remark is how I got curious as to if there is really any validity to this date bringing bad happenings. ( Or if it is mere coincidence?) I do believe certain numbers have special importance to the Lord. But this is new to me. Any answers or opinions out there?