wingnut-

Yes, it is called the lake of fire, which also is consistent with the Jewish Gehenna, where rubbish is disposed of outside the city. The next question would be, how do we know that? Revelation 19:3 Once more they cried out, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence[e] had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The lake of fire is there for the beast and the false prophet at the conclusion of Armageddon, and satan and the rest of the wicked join them at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” And later we are told that they are outside the city. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I think he is very confused angels, just from what I quoted above he makes the same mistake that those who want to turn the woman into "religion" make, he disregards what the angel specifically gives as the interpretation for the woman. Revelation 17: 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” 6 highlighted words undo his entire argument, period. His confusion enters because of failure to grasp the timing and to take into account all the information we have gained from within scripture. What trips so many people up is they cannot understand how the beast and the kings can turn on the woman and destroy her. It is really very simple when you consider the when, and the why. Start with the why. Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. Satan has always wanted to changed God's plan, convinced by doing so he can somehow win the war. A large part of that throughout history has been to claim Jerusalem, as he does not understand the difference between earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem. From the moment he is cast down to the earth he wants to destroy the Israelites, but God won't let him. This makes him furious, but he has overrun the city already by this point and takes out his frustration on Christians instead. The remnant of Jews are protected for 1260 days exactly, so that leads us to the when part. Revelation 17:15 And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. The city of Jerusalem was overrun by the gentiles 3.5 years earlier, which is why you see the multitude, nations, and languages represented. We are now at the end, the war on the saints is over and so is the protection for the woman, so the enemy can now do exactly what he originally intended to do by destroying the Jewish people and the city, the kingdom of Israel if you prefer. The end is near, the signs of Jesus' coming are in the sky and the enemy knows it is almost over so he sets about doing what God has willed for him to do. So the why is because this is what God intends for him to do, and the when can only be carried out once the time of protection is over. This is why it happens at the very end, which that author also is confused about trying to claim Babylon falls twice. John tells us when it falls, right at the end.

Yes, and what those verses indicate to me is that the deeds of the people, which were not just limited to child sacrifice, but also idolatry and intermarriages with the Canaanites are what is in question here. So we are not simply talking about a city, but a kingdom, which includes city, king, and the people that live within it. I would say this applies to the overall context of the chapter, which is dealing with a kingdom. I don't imagine you believe the actual city committed these offenses anymore than I do. What we are really talking about here is a kingdom. The argument for a physical Jerusalem comes mostly from one specific chapter in Zechariah. So the question is, what exactly is Zechariah speaking of? Zechariah 14:10 The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. 11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security. First he tells us what John tells us, along with other prophets like Isaiah, that the land is turned to a plain, the mountains are brought down and the valleys are raised. The area he speaks of begins with Geba, which was located about 5 1/2 miles north of Jerusalem in the territory of Benjamin. No one seems to agree on exactly where Rimmon was located, but in the book of Joshua we see it is part of Judah's allotment, one of 29 cities located at the extreme south along the border of Edom. That border went all the way down to what was known as the Gulf of Aqaba, which is the right arm of the Red Sea that extends up to define the Sinai peninsula. Then Zechariah speaks about the Benjamin Gate. Scripture speaks of a Benjamin gate 3 times in the book of Jeremiah (20:2, 37:13, 38:7). The only other two times it is mentioned in scripture are Zechariah 14 above, and Ezekiel 48:32, which is in relation to the Millennial kingdom in which there are 12 gates, all of which are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. There are currently 8 gates in Jerusalem, named the following, Jaffa Gate, Zion Gate, Dung Gate, Golden Gate, Stephen's Gate, Herod's Gate, Damascus Gate, and New Gate. All 8 of those gates were built by the Turkish sultan Suleiman the Magnificent in the early 16th century, and it seems highly unlikely to me that they have any association to the gates Zechariah speaks of. There was also a tower of Hananel at one point, it is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:38, and twice in Nehemiah (3:1, 12:39). The fact that it no longer stands also speaks to the Millennial kingdom and the place Christ went to prepare for us, and has nothing to do with modern day Jerusalem. An interesting sidenote, Hananel literally means "God has been gracious". Zechariah also says in the passage that there will never again be a decree of utter destruction, which points to the city which exists today being utterly destroyed.

It is indeed interesting, I am about to try my third attempt to respond to Steve on one particular post, the first two times now I have lost everything lol.

I did watch the sermon yesterday, and 2 years ago I agreed with his position, but no longer. What the gentleman fails to do is address some very important aspects in regards to timing, which he talks around a bit. As far as addressing the Jerusalem end of things, he fails miserably, attacking one individual's flawed eschatology from a preterist perspective. Of course there wouldn't be a single preterist that would see Babylon as Babylon because at the time they believe everything occurred Babylon was insignificant. Addressing things from just that one single viewpoint does not begin to address the scripture in question. So let's just look at one specific angle that cannot be reconciled by his position, the timing. Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. The 7th bowl puts the end of Babylon right at the end of everything, and by his position that puts the beast and his armies in Babylon right at that moment. This simply does not align with scripture, look at what takes place at the 6th bowl. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. The beast and his armies, along with all the kings and their armies assemble at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, they do not survive that, and it is not happening in Iraq, it is happening just outside of Jerusalem. So there is a serious timing issue in that regard, then on top of that, where does scripture say everyone goes, and what city is it that they come up against? Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” Zechariah 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. Also comparing what the beast and the ten kings do to the woman to what else Zechariah tells us. Zechariah 14: 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Also, Isaiah in addressing the state of the land at the restoration of Israel. Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the Lord: “In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages, Isaiah 49:18 Lift up your eyes around and see; they all gather, they come to you. As I live, declares the Lord, you shall put them all on as an ornament; you shall bind them on as a bride does. 19 “Surely your waste and your desolate places and your devastated land— surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants, and those who swallowed you up will be far away.

I do the same, the only reason I can think of to not accept something literally is when an obvious contradiction occurs. In those instances there must be a reason for any apparent contradiction. Here is the problem with the idea of a restored Babylon, and in hindsight I really should have begun with this when you first asked what happened to Babylon. Let's start with what led up to the Babylonian exile, and we can see an obvious dual prophecy in scripture right here. Jeremiah begins this chapter talking about a very specific time, the first year of King Nebuchadnezzar. He tells about the warnings to Judah and Jerusalem from God to turn from their wicked ways and be obedient, which they do not do, so then he tells them what the Lord has in store for them. Jeremiah 25:8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste. 13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.” Ok, so now we have a literal problem. Jerusalem has not been an everlasting desolation since the Babylonian captivity, the whole land is not a ruin and a waste. And what happened to Babylon after the seventy years? Did it become an everlasting waste? Jeremiah goes on to give us a list from God, of all the nations who are to drink from the cup of wrath. Jeremiah 25:17 So I took the cup from the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to whom the Lord sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people, 20 and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod); 21 Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon; 22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media; 26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink. Now this is where the prophecy really begins to show the duality of its nature, verse 26 in particular. Jeremiah was instructed to take this cup to each of these nations, and at the end Babylon itself is to receive the cup. Are we to believe that Jeremiah literally covered the entire earth and every kingdom on it at that time? If you look really closely at the list prior to verse 26, what we see are all of the nations that Babylon took possession of during Nebuchadnezzar's reign. None of them immediately became an everlasting desolation. But again, what happened to Babylon after the 70 years? Daniel 5:24 “Then from his presence the hand was sent, and this writing was inscribed. 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the matter: Mene, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; 27 Tekel, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; 28 Peres, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.” 29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and Daniel was clothed with purple, a chain of gold was put around his neck, and a proclamation was made about him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Belshazzar had a party and decided it was a good idea for him and his guests to drink from the cups looted from the Lord's temple. The hand of God literally appeared and wrote on the wall, declaring the kingdom of Babylon was over, and it happened that very night. There is no more Babylon from that point as far as a kingdom, the city lingered for awhile, the Parsin part of the writing became half true that very night and was completed when Cyrus later took the city. Later it was taken by the Greeks, but after the death of Alexander and the wars that ensued it fell into a state of disrepair and eventually was swept away by the sand. But the point is, God declared the kingdom of Babylon as finished, literally, so it will not be rising again physically. But you're still literally changing the term, from mother of harlots, to the mother of all harlotry. The title is literally, mother of harlots, which Ezekiel tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and she has daughters that are also harlots. He gives us the proverb, "like mother, like daughter", which tells us that not only was Jerusalem a harlot, but her mother was a harlot, her sisters are harlots, and all their daughters are thereby harlots, just like their mothers. The difference is, Jerusalem and her daughters are singled out as being unique harlots, and for being worse than the others. If the requirement mother of harlots is taken at face value, then it is obvious that Jerusalem qualifies. When it is changed to mother of all harlotry then no one qualifies, but that is not what the passage says. We haven't really gotten into anything at this point, we are still having a difficult time with the title, mother of harlots. The only other detail mentioned thus far was in regards to the double portion and you did not respond to that, but really we have barely scratched the surface on specifics.

If those passages are to be taken literally, it would appear so. However, there are specific statements to be considered in all of this regarding Babylon. Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more; This city will be "thrown down", and the understanding of that is in relation to its location, on the Judaean Mountains. The following is said as a result of the 7th bowl/vial. Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. If the mountains on which it sits are gone and not to be found, then it stands to reason that the city sitting on a mountain plateau is no longer sitting there and has in fact been literally "thrown down". And if the mountains it sat on are no longer there, then the Jerusalem of the Millennium cannot be the same city as earthly Jerusalem. The city that sits there now is a symbolic reference to the Zion of the future. Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. As Jesus said. John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” And His kingdom comes at this point. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

I think you may have misread that, Oholibah (Jerusalem) is said to be worse, in both chapters. Ezekiel 23:11 “Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sister in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister. Ezekiel 16:51 Samaria has not committed half your sins. You have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations that you have committed. Jerusalem made Samaria and Sodom appear righteous. We are told who the parents are in the Ezekiel 16 passage, and Egypt is not the answer. Ezekiel 16:2 “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. When Israel first entered the land, the king of Jerusalem was an Amorite. Joshua 10:5 Then the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon, gathered their forces and went up with all their armies and encamped against Gibeon and made war against it. After their defeat at Gibeon these 5 kings retreat and hide in a cave, where they are closed in, then released after their cities are taken and put to death themselves. However, Jerusalem was not cleared of its inhabitants by Benjamin and Judah, the Jebusites remained. It wasn't until David came along that Jerusalem was taken possession of. II Samuel 5:3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 At Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and at Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years. 6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who said to David, “You will not come in here, but the blind and the lame will ward you off”—thinking, “David cannot come in here.” 7 Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David. 8 And David said on that day, “Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him get up the water shaft to attack ‘the lame and the blind,’ who are hated by David's soul.” Therefore it is said, “The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.” 9 And David lived in the stronghold and called it the city of David. And David built the city all around from the Millo inward. 10 And David became greater and greater, for the Lord, the God of hosts, was with him. It does not say she is the mother of all harlotry, you are adding the all in there, it says she is the mother of harlots, which is what Ezekiel tells us in chapter 16, Jerusalem is a mother of harlots. Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes (harlots) and of earth's abominations.” Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ Ezekiel 16: 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.

Well, mostly it is because of how chapter 12 ends. The very last part of chapter 12 should actually be the beginning of chapter 13, it was split up incorrectly by translators. I will post what I am talking about and underline the section that should start chapter 13. To illustrate what I mean I will post the first verse of 13 right after. Revelation 12: 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Ok thanks for clarifying that for me. If I understand you correctly you see seals 2-4 as directly associated with the war on the saints. I agree that not many nations, if any, will come through unscathed. I just wasn't sure if you saw those seals as leading up to the war on the saints or directly associated with it, but I think I understand your position now. I have to take some time and consider that possibility. This is interesting to me. If the beast out of the sea is actually here already, then you see Revelation 12 as having already begun?

No, Jerusalem and her daughters are spoken of in Ezekiel 16 passage. Ezekiel 16:48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Ezekiel 16 tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and a very unique harlot, it also tells us that her offenses (as well as her daughters offenses) are greater than Sodom and her daughters. We know of course what Sodom is infamous for, sexual immorality. Jerusalem (and her daughters) in this passage are said to be worse than Sodom, symbolically linking Jerusalem to Sodom as delineated in Revelation 11. The symbolic link to Egypt is in regards to idolatry where they first learned to dabble in foreign gods and never departed from that. This is spelled out in both chapters of Ezekiel 16 and 23. The purpose for bringing the Ezekiel 23 passage is two-fold. One because it speaks to the symbolic link to Egypt as far as the source of Israel's idolatry, and two because it points to the identity of the woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, which is Oholibah, Jerusalem.

Yes, but Israel is being dealt with by God in a very specific way. This is in part because the Lord blinded them so that all could be included in the covenant. All the way back to Genesis you can find there is an everlasting covenant made with them, but in the course of time God had to address their disobedience in breaking the covenant, that is what the 70 weeks were all about. So first look at this passage from Ezekiel, in which the everlasting covenant and the atonement are brought together. Ezekiel 16:59 “For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God.” So then the issue is resolving the timing on when these things take place. Isaiah 27:7 Has he struck them as he struck those who struck them? Or have they been slain as their slayers were slain? 8 Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them; he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind. 9 Therefore by this the guilt of Jacob will be atoned for, and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin: when he makes all the stones of the altars like chalkstones crushed to pieces, no Asherim or incense altars will remain standing. Isaiah 27:12 In that day from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem. God bless

Israel though did something the other nations did not, they were God's faithless bride as Ezekiel spelled out in chapter 16. There is also Ezekiel 23 to consider as well. Here are a few snippets from that chapter, again, another chapter you should really read over in total. Ezekiel 23 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3 They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. 4 Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. Ezekiel 23:36 The Lord said to me: “Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Declare to them their abominations. 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house. Ezekiel 23:43 “Then I said of her who was worn out by adultery, ‘Now they will continue to use her for a whore, even her!’ 44 For they have gone in to her, as men go in to a prostitute. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, lewd women! 45 But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.” 46 For thus says the Lord God: “Bring up a vast host against them, and make them an object of terror and a plunder. 47 And the host shall stone them and cut them down with their swords. They shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses. 48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done. 49 And they shall return your lewdness upon you, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry, and you shall know that I am the Lord God.”

I'm guessing you didn't read Ezekiel 16 lol. Ok, so here is where it speaks about Jerusalem and her daughters in comparison to her sisters and their daughters, it does not say mother of harlots specifically but does include Jerusalem's daughters. Ezekiel 16:30 “How sick is your heart, declares the Lord God, because you did all these things, the deeds of a brazen prostitute, 31 building your vaulted chamber at the head of every street, and making your lofty place in every square. Yet you were not like a prostitute, because you scorned payment. 32 Adulterous wife, who receives strangers instead of her husband! 33 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. 34 So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different. Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ 45 You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46 And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. 47 Not only did you walk in their ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. 51 Samaria has not committed half your sins. You have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations that you have committed. 52 Bear your disgrace, you also, for you have intervened on behalf of your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. So be ashamed, you also, and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous. 53 “I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst, 54 that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all that you have done, becoming a consolation to them. 55 As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former state, and you and your daughters shall return to your former state. 56 Was not your sister Sodom a byword in your mouth in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered? Now you have become an object of reproach for the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and for the daughters of the Philistines, those all around who despise you. 58 You bear the penalty of your lewdness and your abominations, declares the Lord.

I think there is a distinct difference between earthly Jerusalem and Zion, His holy city. There are quite a few issues with the conventional wisdom in regards to Jerusalem that exists right now. For one, we know that there are some major earthquakes that occur at the end, and those quakes have a direct impact on that city. There are also these events that tells us the land will be forever changed. Isaiah 24:10 The wasted city is broken down; every house is shut up so that none can enter. 11 There is an outcry in the streets for lack of wine; all joy has grown dark; the gladness of the earth is banished. 12 Desolation is left in the city; the gates are battered into ruins. 13 For thus it shall be in the midst of the earth among the nations, as when an olive tree is beaten, as at the gleaning when the grape harvest is done. Deuteronomy 32:43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people's land.” This is the kingdom of the Lord, which will be set up by Him. Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.” John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Ok. Let me try and clarify, which I can hopefully do without being too lengthy. The Babylon that is referred to in the future, is in connection with the spiritual connotations, so I'll start there and incorporate both Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50 into this. Isaiah 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. Jeremiah 50:40 As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring cities, declares the Lord, so no man shall dwell there, and no son of man shall sojourn in her. The connection to Jerusalem. Ezekiel 16:2 “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, Ezekiel 16:26 You also played the whore with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. 27 Behold, therefore, I stretched out my hand against you and diminished your allotted portion and delivered you to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28 You played the whore also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the whore with them, and still you were not satisfied. 29 You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied. Ezekiel 16:46 And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. Symbolically Jerusalem is linked to Sodom and Egypt in Ezekiel 16 which really a complete reading is necessary for the full picture. Then this is touched on in Jude, and specifically stated in Revelation. Jude 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Revelation 11: 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. The symbolic connection to Babylon of Revelation is further on display in Ezekiel 16, where Jerusalem is said to have committed the greatest of abominations, greater than all others, and is also identified as a mother of harlots, as well as the biggest harlot ever. Jeremiah 50:29 “Summon archers against Babylon, all those who bend the bow. Encamp around her; let no one escape. Repay her according to her deeds; do to her according to all that she has done. For she has proudly defied the Lord, the Holy One of Israel. Revelation 18:6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed. The double portion that is promised to Babylon is only attributed to one other place in scripture. Isaiah 40:2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins. Hosea 10:10 When I please, I will discipline them, and nations shall be gathered against them when they are bound up for their double iniquity. Jeremiah 16:18 But first I will doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted my land with the carcasses of their detestable idols, and have filled my inheritance with their abominations.” I am assuming you are talking about the uninhabited aspect in regards to this, perhaps you misunderstood what I am trying to say. When I was referring to the overall kingdom of ancient Babylon I was referring to a city within that region, as the angel was specific that Babylon of Revelation is a city. So that city will be uninhabited, but the area from the Nile to the Euphrates River is the land given to Abraham's seed and that is where the Lord's kingdom will be established. It cannot be present day Jerusalem because it is going to be destroyed, and it is not large enough for Ezekiel's temple which is the Millennial temple. As Jesus told us in scripture, His kingdom is not of this world. It is also important to remember that at the beginning of the Millennium there will not be a ton of people, also in scripture He tells us that it will begin the size of a mustard seed and grow. God bless

You were right to point it out, I wouldn't want to confuse anyone, was certainly not my intent. Marv touched on how I understand it, in that the conditions don't necessarily have to fall within the seventy weeks, they just have to be fulfilled prior to the conclusion of it.

Agreed, I worded that poorly. The point I was making is that they are still covered in their iniquity unless/until they accept Him as Messiah, which is yet future for them.

I completely agree this prophecy is yet future, but just to clarify in verse 19 it specifies the kingdom of Babylon, not the city itself. Why is this important? Consider the area the Babylonian Empire consisted of. It ran through the Nile region of Egypt, cut across the upper part of the Red Sea to the top of the Persian Gulf in the southern area. From the Nile area it went north all along the Great Sea (Mediterranean) covering southern Turkey and moving east along the borders of what was Media at that time and hooking south back down to the Persian Gulf. So in modern day it contained parts of, or all of the following nations. Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia. Most of those nations are specifically mentioned in the end times prophecies, not by their current names but by their names in ancient times, such as Babylon, Edom, Moab, etc. Those surrounding areas are where we get specific prophecies regarding their judgement, specifically even mentioning the Lord coming up out of them. While there are also verses that touch on this being a global event, including the passage from Isaiah 13 amongst others, everything specifically mentioned is from within that region and were part of the kingdom of Babylon. Many people still question whether this will be a global event because of that, which I personally disagree with but many do still believe that. I'm not exactly dogmatic either, is it possible that Babylon the city will be rebuilt again, sure, it is possible. I don't expect it will be though, as the hour is growing late and a great city cannot be erected overnight by man. Given the present state of Iraq it just strikes me as highly unlikely it would begin anytime in the near future. In regards to verse 20 this obviously has to be future still as well. Exactly what part of the kingdom of Babylon this refers to it is difficult to say for certain, but we know that the majority of what was the kingdom of Babylon is the exact area God promised to Abraham's seed in Genesis 15, from the Nile to the Euphrates. So whatever part of Babylon will never be inhabited again ( I suspect in reference to the Millennial Kingdom period) is probably located on the opposite side of the Euphrates which was the base of the empire.

Persian conquest In 539 BC, the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, with a military engagement known as the Battle of Opis. Babylon's walls were considered impenetrable. The only way into the city was through one of its many gates or through the Euphrates River. https://www.ancient.eu/babylon/ After Alexander’s death at Babylon in 323 BCE, his successors (known as `The Diadochi’, Greek for `successors’) fought over his empire generally and the city specifically to the point where the residents fled for their safety (or, according to one ancient report, were re-located). By the time the Parthian Empire ruled the region in 141 BCE Babylon was deserted and forgotten. The city steadily fell into ruin and, even during a brief revival under the Sassanid Persians, never approached its former greatness. In the Muslim conquest of the land in 650 CE whatever remained of Babylon was swept away and, in time, was buried beneath the sands. In the 17th and 18th centuries CE European travelers began to explore the area and return home with various artifacts. These cuneiform blocks and statues led to an increased interest in the region and, by the 19th century CE, an interest in biblical archaeology drew men like Robert Koldewey who uncovered the ruins of the once great city of the Gate of the Gods.

The problem with this is that the woman is identified by the angel as a city, so that rules the religion out. It is certainly fair to debate which city it will be, but scripture seems fairly clear it will be Jerusalem. I don't disagree, although as I said before I don't put any faith in the book of Enoch so I'm not personally willing to put a name to it. I also would agree it is very likely that more than just the destroyer is going to emerge from the abyss when it is unlocked. Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. For a very short period of time this is true, not the entire 3.5 year period, but rather one hour or a short time if you prefer. There are several possibilities as to what brings this about. One being, the signs of His coming lead to a scorched earth type mentality from the enemy, an if I can't have it no one can response. The second being, the 1260 days of protection for the Jews expires at that hour, and the enemy simply resorts to doing what he wanted to do at the outset of the 1260 days as explained in Revelation 12. We can use the term beast if you prefer, doesn't matter to me. I do not disagree with your earlier reference to there being many anti-christs. God bless

This is what diaste touched on, the 70 weeks are decreed for the Jews and Jerusalem to accomplish these things. THEY must make atonement for their iniquities, which they have not done as they rejected Him. Just to clarify in scripture, this is what must be fulfilled. Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” This goes back to what occurred at the triumphal entry. Matthew 21: 8 Most of the crowd spread their cloaks on the road, and others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” 10 And when he entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred up, saying, “Who is this?” This is part of the psalm that is sung every 10th of Nissan, for the choosing of the Passover Lamb. Psalm 118:25 Save us (Hosanna), we pray, O Lord! O Lord, we pray, give us success! 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We bless you from the house of the Lord. 27 The Lord is God, and he has made his light to shine upon us. Bind the festal sacrifice with cords, up to the horns of the altar! 28 You are my God, and I will give thanks to you; you are my God; I will extol you. 29 Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever! The atonement for their iniquity is contingent upon their accepting Him as Messiah, as it is for everyone. This takes place at the end of the 70th week, just as the 69th week ended before it. God bless

It makes sense to me that this one would be open, though I'm not dogmatic in regards to any of them being open. So in regards to the rest of my comments these are just thoughts to consider, not something I am convinced of to any degree. The thing with this is, one could easily point to widespread war for a very long period of time. Just for clarity here are a few links to show what I am referring to in that there have been very few moments of peace since 1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1945–1989 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1990–2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003–present In regards to the persecution aspect, this has also been ongoing, dating back to the very start of the church. It just hasn't reached us here yet, though the means to do so in short order are within sight. The same would be true of the plagues, famines, earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, etc. have all been fairly consistent yet as time goes on they also seem to be intensifying. That could just be because there are more people now so death tolls increase as a result of it. I guess some clarification would help on this, so I'll just ask you this question. Do you believe that those conditions will exist for everyone for those seals to be opened, or would it just have to exist for a majority? I think the reason WWII is a focal point is because of the end result, the establishment of Israel as a nation again. It certainly has some influence on the prophetic time clock, but doesn't necessarily have to be related to the seals themselves, so I think we agree on that. That being said, the occurrence of war, or the rumors of wars that never took place have not subsided over the course of time from then until now. It is certainly possible you are correct, in fact, some of these wars taking place in the Middle East right now may well be exactly the wars that bring the man of sin to the surface. Ok, I have no issue in using those terms for clarity. Considering how you worded this though, I have to again ask about the beast aspect. Is this the beast you believe is already here as of the first seal?

The 69th week ended on the day of His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, this was the marker. It was at that point that He accepted the title of King and Messiah and began to offer the kingdom to the Jewish people. Also important to note that Daniel says He is cut off after the 62 weeks. I've never considered the death and resurrection as being a part of this prophecy, but more what occurs when He returns the second time. Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. God bless

I don't disagree with what you refer to as triangulation, but the 6th seal does occur near the end of the week, so I do see it, but I would disagree as to whose logic is flawed. God bless