Celt

Massorite, good to see others have read Josephus on the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. I agree Shiloh62, good to stay focused. Because of the type of events prophesied in Revelation, Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians 2, I put the tribulation starting when false messiah appears and starts requiring the whole world to bow to him in place of GOD, and many brethren are delivered up to councils and synagogues because of refusing. Nebula, as for the tribulation starting with Christ opening the first seal, I don't believe that, because the 7 seals impart information and are not in order as to the events, except for the last three maybe. I believe that very first seal is about a false one coming on a white horse to mimic the way our Lord Jesus comes in Rev.19. That event doesn't happen until towards the end, like on the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel does involve the setting up of false worship, and the desolation in a Jerusalem Temple. Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. served as a major blueprint for that, as he even sacrificed swine on the altar and scattered its broth around the Temple. With that example fitting the Daniel scripture much better than what the Romans did in 70 A.D., why would that be omitted from the historicist view? In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus was very specific that when you see the abomination standing where it ought not in the holy place, then let those in Judea flee to the mountains. Christ was very specific in that, and even gave that in conjunction with a 'pseudochristos' coming to work great signs and wonders who some will say is Christ, and is in the "secret chambers". What Roman went into the Temple and did that, and even sat in the "secret chambers" in Jerusalem? None, for the fire broke out in the Temple before the Romans could get inside it (per the historian Josephus). What it sounds like, is that some are in denial of Christ's warning there which He gave also in conjunction with His second coming, another item in that prophecy that never came to pass in 70 A.D. with the Romans. Jerusalem has been sieged something like 27 times already, one time its name was changed involving Jupiter worship. So it's silly to keep focused only on what the Romans did in 70 A.D., especially when a false structure resides on the Temple Mount even today from a previous conquering by Islam.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; (KJV) The "beast" symbol is also applied to men per God's Word, and that's why Rev.13:11 is talking about a man. But the 'beast' kingdom idea is from the Book of Daniel, as per the example in Rev.13.

Actually, worse things are happenning in United States public schools. In many kindergartens, books with the gay agenda is teaching toddlers about one type of family having two parents of the same gender. In one kindergarten school in my home state, a mother visited the last hour to watch the class her child was in. The teacher got all the children to close their eyes and think of something that disturbed them, and then think of "Barney" (the dinosaur figure), and telling them Barney was their friend and they could talk to him for help when they were afraid and had problems. Needless to say, the visiting mother was quite angry, because clearly she wanted her child coming directly to her with any problems, fears, or what not. My sister is an elementary school teacher, specializing in reading skills. I caught her with two paperbacks one day she was using for her reading skills class (5th - 6th grade I think). I asked to see them, and she was reluctant to hand them to me. The first was written by a British author and was fiction about a little girl who had been raped while young. I held my breath, and asked to see the other book. The other book was along the same lines, but was about a little boy who had been molested! I calmly, as much as I could, kind of blew up at her, "You know better than to allow such things, we were raised in the Church to know the difference! How could you?", I said. "Did your school assign those books for your reading class?", I asked. She said no, that she was allowed to chose whatever. I then asked why she didn't go to the local library and find something with a little history about the area where these kids live, give them a little respect for the community where they live. Then, several months later she calls me, and says she got selected along with a few other teachers to attend a seminar in Arizona, and she was excited, because it meant a mini vacation. I then learned she was not forced to select those two books, but that they were on a list given her as possibles. It became obvious that the seminar was her reward for following the school's suggested possibles. To me though, that's the school system bribing the teachers to follow humanist socialism.

I will cover it this way... Rev 17:7-18 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. Two different 'beasts' mentioned in Rev.13. The first in Rev.13:1 comes out of the 'sea' and we are told by Christ the waters means peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The first beast is a kingdom over peoples on the earth (Rev.17:15). But the "another beast" John saw beginning at Rev.13:11 forward is an entity, one that speaks as the "dragon". And per Rev.12:9, we know the "dragon" is another title for the devil himself. Which 'beast' is this one of verse 7? It's the first beast, a system or kingdom upon the earth, comparable to those prior beast kingdoms given from Daniel in Rev.13. The "woman" is a city we are told at the end of this chapter, and it's that first beast kingdom that carries her. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Which 'beast' is this, the first or second? It's the second one mentioned in Rev.13:11 forward, an entity working great wonders and miracles in the sight of men on earth. In Rev.11 we are shown this second beast ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses, in Jerusalem. That's that same "another beast" of Rev.13:11 that comes up out of the "earth". He represents false worship, and he is compared with the "dragon", another title for the devil per Rev.12:9. The "son of perdition" is another one of Satan's titles, because he is already judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire. This also is why his name is rendered as "Apollyon" in Rev.9:11, and there we are told he is "the angel of the bottomless pit". 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Since the Rev.11 events about that second beast is linked with this, it means Jerusalem is an important part of this prophecy here. Those past beast kingdoms of Daniel came upon Jerusalem and at times caused abominations there, particularly in association with false religion and the destruction of two Temples. Thus the previous kings that were fallen of the pagan nations afflicted Jerusalem. Rome would represent the 6th in the days of John the Apostle. All those previous kings were flesh men. The seventh, the one that is not yet come, and when he does come he must continue a "short space". The 7th king is the devil himself coming in the last days prior to Christ's return. That's the second beast, the angel of the bottomless pit that is to ascend out of the pit to Jerusalem and kill God's two witnesses there. That is the king which Rev.9 says is the "angel of the bottomless pit", Apollyon in the Greek, and Abaddon in Hebrew, meaning 'the Destroyer'. Rev.9 gives that as a 6th trumpet timing, on the second 'woe', and Christ's coming to defeat him as the 7th trumpet timing and third last woe. The devil when he realizes he's been cast down to this earth, he goes to persecute the saints, "because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Rev.12:12). That's the "short space" of time he as the 7th king must continue, as it's about the tribulation time. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. The "beast that was, and is not" links us back to the subject of verse 8, where it says, "The beast that thous sawest was, and is not". We are told there it's one who will ascend out of the bottomless pit and then go into perdition (i.e., perish). And that those who's names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will wonder at him. Again, that's the devil himself. Verse 8 is not about post Milennium timing; it's about the events of Revelation leading up to the 7th trumpet just before Christ returns. Per Rev.20, we are told at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign on earth, that Satan will be released from the pit to go lead the nations up against the "camp of the saints" at the "holy city". That is how Satan represents the eighth king. And again, we are told that one is already set to go into perdition, meaning the lake of fire. Even at this time in our day, only the devil and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish. No one else is judged and sentenced until AFTER Christ's future thousand years reign. If it's easy to understand Rev.20 that Satan is released out of the pit to deceive the nations in coming against the holy city after Christ's reign, then how difficult is it to fathom that's also who ascends up out of the bottomless pit to Jerusalem in the last days, prior to Christ's second coming? If the eighth is Satan himself, then how is he "of the seven" prior kings? God gave us comparisons through His Old Testament prophets between past pagan flesh kings and Satan (Ezek.28; 31; Isaiah 14 especially). It means the devil has been over those past flesh pagan kings of history. But the very last days is to be different involving the type of king, for the devil is going to play that role himself in the last days, and also once again after Christ's Milennium, and then finally perish in the lake of fire. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These ten kings receive power "one hour" with which beast, the first or the second? The second beast, Satan. In Rev.9 we are told the locust army have crowns on their heads, and have the faces of men, meaning they are men. And they have a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit (Satan). They will receive power when Satan comes for that "one hour", which is another symbol for the tribulation time that has been shortened for the sake of Christ's elect. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful. That war is described later in Rev.16; it's about Armageddon. That's the battle Christ and the asleep saints fight at His coming, the asleep saints being those Paul said Christ would bring with Him when He comes in 1 Thess.4. It's the prophecy Enoch gave about Christ's coming with ten thousands of His saints in the Book of Jude. The only other possible time that kind of battle between our Lord Jesus Christ and Satan could have happenned might have been during Satan's original overthrow. It certainly has never happened during this world age, yet. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. That's describing the first beast of Rev.13:1, the beast that comes up out of the 'sea', or "waters" here, which means a system over the whole earth, over all nations. In the Old Testament prophets, God said it was His intent to assemble the kingdoms, and gather the nations to bring them upon Jerusalem in final so as to pour out His indignation upon them, and that the whole earth would be devoured by the fire of His jealousy (Zeph.3). Ezekiel 38 & 39 describes the nations that are to come upon the mountains of Israel for that final battle of Armageddon. A revived Roman empire is NOT mentioned among those nations, nor are any of the areas of the western Christian nations. But, nations pointing to the northern quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, Tubal, Meshech, Rosh (northern quarters of the earth, which most likely includes Russia), Persia (Iraq), Libya, Gomer (Black Sea area), Togarmah (area near Turkey or Armenia), Ethiopia (which probably means Sudan, which used to be part of old Ethiopia, and is heavily anti-Israel today). Is it strange that today we can see those nations tied together in supporting terrorism against Israel and the western Christian nations 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. The ten horns are those ten powers over the earth, ten kings that are to rule with Satan for "one hour". They will hate Jerusalem, and make her desolate and naked, which is about the eventual setting up of the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Daniel 11:31, which also Christ mentioned being set in the "holy place" in Jerusalem (Matt.24:15). In times past, God compared Jerusalem to a harlot city when it was under the power of false worship (Ezek.16). Isaiah made the same comparisons in his day about Jerusalem and Judah in a fallen state away from God (Isa.1:21). 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. All the world leaders will be on that plan to give up their power under control to the beast. It's God's will they do so. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (KJV) That this is speaking of Jerusalem, for most it will remain a mystery.

I think we've been here before on this topic in another thread... Our Lord Jesus Christ describes the symbols of Revelation 13 in Chapter 17. The "waters" is about the beast that comes out of the "sea" in Rev.13:1, and Jesus told John it represents, "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (Rev.17:15). Rev 17:12-14 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (KJV) Our Lord's Message that He is The One Who will overcome those ten kings, along with His chosen and called, which points to the very last days at the second coming. It's about the battle of Armageddon that will occur at Christ's coming per Rev.16. That has yet to occur. That MOVES this Message about the beasts of Rev.13 to the very last days, our future even. Another proof of that is how God's two witnesses are to appear in Jerusalem in the last days per Rev.11, and the 'beast' that ascends up out of the bottomless pit is to kill them, and let their bodies lay in the street of Jerusalem. THAT event has NEVER happened yet in history. It's because it's still yet a future event, and signals the very last woe and 7th trumpet coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the gathering of His saints to Him. In Rev.13, there are two different 'beasts' mentioned. Rev 13:11-15 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. This "another beast" that John saw was different than the first beast of Rev.13:1. This second beast is about an entity, a man who comes to have power over the first beast. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (KJV) In 2 Thessalonians 2, the apostle Paul warned that before Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints, a false one must first come, sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God, working great wonders and signs on the earth to deceive many into falling away. 2 Thess. 2:1-4 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV) Compare the working of that false one with the "another beast" working in Rev.13. 2 Thess. 2:8-10 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (KJV) In 2 Thess.2:8, we are shown Who defeats that false one with the brightness of His coming, i.e., Christ Jesus. Only then will "that Wicked" one be revealed to the whole world for who he truly is. That's the same timing of Rev.17:14 when the ten kings will make war with The Lamb (Jesus Christ) at the battle of Armageddon. That "another beast", or second beast, ascends up out of the earth, and that's a direct link to that beast of Rev.11 that ascends up out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem during the very last days. That "another beast" is associated with the title of "dragon". We were already told who the "dragon" is in the previous Chapter, strange how some folk's memory is very short... Rev 12:7-12 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. The identity of the "dragon" is the devil himself, Satan. Men's doctrines try to say something different, but who wants to listen to men's doctrines anyway? 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (KJV) Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, AND of the sea? Where was that bit of info given about the "sea"? Back at Rev.13:1 about the "sea" which Christ said means peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. Scripture is saying the devil, i.e., the "dragon", de facto, is going to be cast down to this earth with his angels after a war in Heaven. And, he knows he has but a short time. A short time for what? To make war with the saints, those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ and those which keep the commandments of God (Rev.12:17). Rev.12 links that timing to the 1260 days of the Book of Daniel. Christ also linked the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel with a false one coming to Jerusalem and placing an idol in the 'holy place', and warning His servants to not believe on that false one as Christ (Matthew 24 and Mark 13). Many will believe the devil himself is God, sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Note how the 'historicist' and 'preterist' views always attempt to run circles around those direct Bible links above, as if they already know it but want to steer around it, or discredit it.

We've been over all this "dragon" and Revelation Babylon before on another thread, and it isn't Rome, nor the USA... The Revelation Babylon harlot is a 'city', and it's endtime Jerusalem, for that's where the beast that ascends up out of the bottomless pit in the last days to kill God's "two witnesses" who will testify in Jerusalem. Rev 17:18 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (KJV) Rev 11:7-8 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (KJV) Lot of speculation out there put forth by false prophets, but this is really easy to grasp if one stays with what is written there in God's Word, instead of listening to the doctrines of men.

Rome? Possibly, since Rome had power especially over Judea at that time. But somehow, I don't think the Samaritan woman was following the tenets of Rome to represent the sixth. Were the Samaritans of mixed Jewish heritage? No, they were brought from Babylon by the king of Assyria who would conquer a land and swap the peoples. II Ki 17:26-33 26 Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, "The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore He hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land". 27 Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, "Carry thither one of the priests whom ye brought from thence; and let them go and dwell there, and let him teach them the manner of the God of the land." 28 Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD. 29 Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt. 30 And the men of Babylon made Succothbenoth, and the men of Cuth made Nergal, and the men of Hamath made Ashima, 31 And the Avites made Nibhaz and Tartak, and the Sepharvites burnt their children in fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim. 32 So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places. 33 They feared the LORD, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence.(KJV) The nations whom they (the Assyrians) carried away from the lands of Samaria was only the ten tribed house of Israel. The house of Judah at Jerusalem/Judea to the south remained untouched when the king of Assyria took the ten tribes captive. Per that history the ten tribes were removed by God because of doing idol worship in the northern lands, their refusing to go down to Jerusalem to worship because king Jeroboam (of Ephraim) setup two golden idols for worship in the north, one in Bethel and one at Dan (2 Kings 10:29). So when the Samaritan woman says, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain..." (John 4:20), it means she was from one of the two groups that dwelt there. It had to mean she was either of the priests of the ten tribes, which the king of Assyria had placed back at Samaria after the ten tribes had been removed, to teach those foreigners from Babylon about God. Or she was of those five pagan peoples from Babylon placed in the land by the Assyrian. Not likely that she was a priest so that would make her heritage from one of those five peoples brought from Babylon and placed in Samaria after the Assyrian had taken all the ten tribes out of the land. Scripture in 2 Kings shows that God had ALL the ten tribes of the house of Israel removed from the land into captivity to Assyria and the land of the Medes. None of the ten tribes remained in the land per the Scripture. It's easy to get confused about that, because per God's Word there were 2 separate captivities, at two different times, of two different groups of Israelites, to two different locations, one for the northern ten tribes at Samaria by the king of Assyria, and another about 120 years later upon Judah at Jerusalem by the king of Babylon. The Isaiah 17:6 verse is a prophecy about all of Jacob's offspring especially (Isa.17:4), which means Israelites. So that's not meant for the Samaritans. The Message is basically that among God's chosen Israel, there would always be a remnant with the Truth, even when the majority of them were in rebellion. The idea of a "remnant" of Israel is covered in several areas of God's Word talking about the election. The small remnant of the 'house of Judah' that returned after their captivity in Babylon is another example of that remnant idea. The rest, and majority of the house of Judah chose to stay in Babylon (read Books of Ezra and Nehemiah). In Romans 11:1-5 the apostle Paul is talking about the elect remnant of Israel.

We'll see. So far on that website there's a lot of quoting from Scripture used for the idea of fleeing to God's mountain, with the idea that the 'mountain' is symbolic of God's Word. But many of those passages quoted have quite literal meanings when allowing God's Word to flow in the mind to interpret itself. The endtime warning our Lord Jesus gave is for His servants to flee Jerusalem, get out of that area because of the events that are coming especially there with a false messiah. In Luke 17 our Lord mentioned about the idea of two in the field (world), one 'taken' and the other left. His disciples asked Him where the one taken was taken to, and He answered that wherever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together (Luke 17:37). In Matthew 24:28 our Lord explained what that really means, with wherever the "carcase" is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Eagles don't go after a dead carcase, but vultures do. The parable means the first one taken in the field is to a false one and his wicked host, and they represent vultures, i.e., fake eagles. It's about spiritual deception. So hopefully, that website is not going to try and say to flee like the first one taken, because that would mean falling right into the very deception our Lord and His Apostle Paul warned us about, i.e., the "strong delusion" that's coming upon the whole world.

Our Lord's teaching in John 5 reinforces that we are raised right after flesh death... John 5:24-29 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself; 27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (KJV) Our Lord Jesus represents the Firstfruit of the resurrection. After His resurrection He went to preach to the "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3. I believe the raising of the dead has been happenning all along, since the man Adam, with the Luke 16 example being how it was BEFORE our Lord Jesus died on the cross was raised by The Father. Like He also said to the blind scribes and Pharisees, for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living... Luke 20:37-38 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him. (KJV) What does that mean "for all live unto Him"? It goes with what the apostle Paul was saying about wanting to be absent from the body to be with Christ. About Eccl.12:5-7 of what happens at death, the "spirit" part that goes back to God is important to understand. We are told at flesh death our flesh body goes back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. What that "spirit" part contains is not just some element that animates all living things. That's how the 'dead in the ground' theorists treat it, which is dangerous, because if that "spirit" means only something that animates the flesh, then there would be no such thing as one's soul intellect, i.e., the real part of what we call person. Allowing The Bible to interpret Itself means all those passages about our soul and what happens after death which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached must also be weighed. To deny them is to deny His Word. Matt 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (KJV) The meaning of "hell" in that verse is about the "lake of fire" of Rev.20:14-15, which is where hell will go into after Christ's thousand years reign on earth. The Greek word is 'genna', referring to the valley of Hinnom. A flesh type body does not go into hell, nor the lake of fire. Our Lord Jesus showed that even with the "rich man" of Luke 16. So what is our Lord saying in that Matt.10:28 verse? Don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul. But do fear Him Who can destroy both 'body' and soul in the "lake of fire". But again, what kind of body is that? Satan and his angels are already judged and sentenced to go into the "lake of fire", so what kind of body do they have? They have angelic bodies, not flesh bodies. And that's the kind of body our Lord Jesus means there that can go into 'geena'. Then if you read Eccl.12:5-7 again in relation, we MUST interpret that "spirit" part that goes back to God Who gave it contains more than something which simply animates all things. It also means a spiritual type body with the soul. The whole Bible is in agreement with Itself. And the "spiritual body" part is exactly what the apostle Paul was talking about with the idea of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 (also in 2 Cor.5 about being absent). Paul also called it the "image of the heavenly" and a body of "incorruption", contrasting it to the flesh corruptible body. Whether here on earth in a flesh body, or in the heavenly, ALL live unto God like our Lord Jesus said. Also, the "third heaven" in 2 Cor.12 which the apostle Paul mentioned, does not mean a third level in Heaven. It means the third heavenly age, which is God's Eternity. That one who was "caught up" to Paradise, to the "third heaven" (which I believe was Paul modestly speaking of himself), was brought forward in time to the new heavens and a new earth event. There are three world ages mentioned in God's Word. The first was the time when Satan first rebelled, and the second we are still in, which will include Christ's future thousand years reign on earth, and the third begins after that when the new heavens and a new earth is manifested with the wicked gone. This is what the early Church believed, which got corrupted later into the doctrine of man of praying to dead saints, etc.

On the 7th trumpet sounding at Christ's coming, all alive on earth will changed to their "spiritual body" (1 Cor.15). One group to the resurrection unto eternal Life, and the wicked to the resurrection unto condemnation. Christ will gather His to be where He is, which will be on earth at the holy city of Rev.20:9, also called "the camp of the saints". On earth is where the Milennium events of Rev.20 and Ezekiel 40 forward will take place. Even at that time, with everyone in a spiritual body, there will still be a separation between the saints at the holy city and the wicked outside its border... Rev 22:13-15 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (KJV) Isa 14:15-17 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" (KJV) Ezek 28:18 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (KJV) Per Rev.20:9 forward, a fire will come down from God out of Heaven to destroy those nations Satan leads upon the camp of the saints, but he will be cast into the lake of fire, along with the abode of hell with the wicked. That is the "second death" per Rev.20:14. Ps 37:10-11 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (KJV) Has Satan and his angels ever experienced a 'first death'? No, for they have always dwelt in the heavenly dimension, without a flesh body. That's why only the "second death" can have effect upon them when they are cast into the "lake of fire", for that means the destruction of their heavenly image body and soul. In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul went into depth on the type of bodies, and what type of body the resurrection is. He showed that to have eternal Life through Christ Jesus, a soul must put on the heavenly image body, what he called the "spiritual body", body of "incorruption" or "image of the heavenly". But he also declared that also "this mortal" must "put on immortality". That "this mortal" part is about the soul's condition. There is such a thing as a 'mortal' soul, one that can still perish later in the "lake of fire" with Satan, for his soul is mortal, sentenced already to perish. In the resurrection at Christ's coming, all will be changed to a spiritual body, and that's how both the saints and Satan and the wicked will be manifest on earth in order for those events of Rev.20:9 and 22:14-15 to occur. The latter part of Zechariah 14 also mentions some of those events after Christ's coming to this earth.

Rev 12:7-10 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (KJV) Hell is considered to be in the earth because of the Bible expression of it being downward. But that's an expression, similar to the serpent being assigned to the 'dust' acting as a metaphor for Satan being cast down to a lowly status from his original position of guarding God's Throne. Thus that idea of hell being in the earth has become a 'tradition'. Satan stands as our "accuser" against us before God in Heaven day and night, until that event of his being cast down to this earth for the 1260 day tribulation. That particular war there in Rev.12 has not happenned yet, for it's tied to the coming events of 1260 days of tribulation and the persecution on earth of the saints that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That Testimony of the saints didn't exist yet at Satan's first fall. Hell is in a place of separation away from God, but it is still in the Heavenly dimension. To think it is literaly in the earth is to assign it to our dimension we exist in today on earth. There are only two dimensions of existence, the one we live in and the Heavenly abode where God and the cherubim and angels are.

Hades and Paradise are not in heaven, but in the earth. Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Luke 16:19-31 (New King James Version) The Rich Man and Lazarus There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man

Per God's Word, both paradise and hell are in HEAVEN. The difference is there's a great gulf fixed border between them (Luke 16). Everyone want's to go to heaven, but to which side should be the question. Luke 23:42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." 43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise." (KJV) I've seen even good Christian Bible scholars try to twist that simple statement our Lord Jesus said to the believing malefactor who was crucified with Him. Obviously, it's easy to tell that I do not subscribe to the 'dead in the ground' doctrines of men. Why should I, when our Lord Jesus told that malefactor that he'd be with Him in Paradise that day (meaning after he'd died on his cross)? When I've conversed with those on the 'dead in the ground' and 'the dead know nothing' doctrines, one of the quotes I get most often is that of Ecclesiastes 9. In that chapter of Ecclesiastes 9 the righteous and the wicked are being compared against each other, jumping back in forth to each. It means while reading it one must stay focused of how everything said applies, and to which group. Eccl 9:2-6 2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. Reading that seems to make it easy to apply all that's said in later verses to both groups equally. But if that's to be done, then there would be no such thing as God's Salvation to the righteous. 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. In the sense that death happens to all, that's right. But what about the righteous even while alive? Look at verse 4 and see which phrase would apply to the righteous, and which phrase would apply to the wicked. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (KJV) Do those verses really apply to the righteous of God's people, even the idea of those who hate and envy? If so, then will memory of the righteous perish after they're dead? Do those who sleep in Jesus now never have any more a reward, and the memory OF THEM forgotten? Notice it doesn't say 'their memory is forgotten' like they're dead in the ground and know nothing, it says "the memory OF them" is no more. What time is that really for per God's Word? Who is that will be forgotten when God's Kingdom comes? Well, who goes into the "lake of fire" after the Milennium? The wicked along with Satan and his hosts. That's the real 'dead' that idea is talking about, not those who sleep in Jesus that the apostle Paul talked about in 1 Thess.4. Of course those who have died in Christ still have reward coming, and the memory of them is not forgotten. And they definitely DO STILL have a portion FOR EVER of things done under the sun (in God's future Kingdom on earth; even during Christ's Milennium). But the wicked won't. What about "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion"? How is that hope meant for a living dog? Again, that's referring to the wicked unbeliever that is still alive, for while yet alive there is still hope of conversion to Christ unto eternal Life. Here is a direct Bible parallel to what I'm talking about with the idea of the 'dead'... Isa 26:14 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. (KJV) The word "deceased" is the same word for Rephaim per the Hebrew, and is a proper name for the giants of the valley of Rephaim. In the KJV that Hebrew word was mistranslated to "dead" in some passages. This is one of them. Those will not be resurrected, and the memory of them is to perish forever once they are destroyed by God. Throughout God's Word, there exists a spiritual metaphor about the 'dead'. Jude 1 mentions some who are even "twice dead", definitely pointing to a spiritually dead soul while yet alive on earth that eventually goes to the "lake of fire" for the destruction of the soul afterwards. That means the "second death" of Rev.20. The first death is the death of the flesh, but the "second death" as written, is the death of the soul cast into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's thousand years reign. The 'dead in the ground' doctrine of man tries to limit the Ecclesiastes 9 scripture to just the idea of the first death, but it's covering the idea of the "second death" also. Those in Christ Jesus are promised what?... John 5:24 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (KJV) Those who have died in Christ Jesus should NEVER be compared to those dead of Eccl.9 that have no hope, for those who sleep in Jesus will return with Him when He comes as written. Based on direct Scripture, those are in Paradise once they died in the flesh. And that's where all the saints that have died go. Did the crucified malefactor who believed come into condemnation? Not according to what our Lord Jesus said to him on the cross. So as far as I'm concerned, the 'dead in the ground' idea is simply another one of the doctrines of men that the devil has tricked many of God's people into believing.

I have asked this same question to myself again and again. Instead of turning to translations... I turned to prayer and the knowledge that is in science. I am not saying that all science is truth... ex. evolution is just a theory. I also tried to put the written word in context of who wrote it and the period of time and their relative knowledge of what things are and their ability to describe things with a restricted vocabulary.. and whether it is written from inspiration or vision, etc. This is my understanding or best yet the process through which I reach conclusions and revelation... what is earth and heaven? Can we see earth/heaven. Earth is physical and I can see all that is in it. (The physical is Space, Matter & Time) is heaven visible? I would think we cannot see heaven for it is beyond the realm of the earth ( the physical that we touch and see). Heaven is spiritual or for simplicity it is beyond the realm of the physical, for it is where God dwells. Thus we cannot go to Heaven physically. Thus I conclude: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" God created the spiritual and the physical (the foundations of the heavens and the earth) The physical is where matter exist, was void and empty, the blackness you see when you look up at the sky at night we were ordained before the foundations of the earth Jesus was there as He was the first of all creation But there's part of the problem. If we defer to the thinking of human secularism and "age of reason" rhetoric, then the 'tohuw va bohuw' ("without form, and void" or "formless and empty") phrase gets totally away from how God interpreted it for us in other Bible Scripture. In other Bible Scripture, the Hebrew word 'tohuw' ("without form") means something that existed which went into confusion and became a waste or ruin, like good fruit going bad. Likewise with 'bohuw' ("and void") per Isaiah 34:11 as translated to "stones of emptiness" (KJV). In Isaiah 45:18 God was very clear that He did NOT create the earth 'tohuw'. The word 'tohuw' is translated to "vain" there, but it's the same word for "without form" in Gen.1:2 and Jer.4:23. In Jeremiah 4:23-28, "without form, and void" appears again, and it's about a destruction God brought upon the earth destroying both man and beast. This means "without form, and void" or "formless and void" are bad English translations. It means the earth was NOT in a formless state in Gen.1:2, nor that it's about some kind of nothingness or chaotic ether state. If God's Word is used as the interpretor, then Gen.1:2 shows the result of a destruction upon the earth which God brought to end some event that had occurred upon the earth. AS for understanding the difference between earthly matter (the physical) and the heavenly, even the known UNIVERSE of stars and planets are part of the 'physical' creation of matter. But Heaven where God dwells, that is about a different dimension altogether than the known physical universe. The way I think of the heavenly using scientific reasoning (as much as it be possible), it might have something to do with manifestations that exceed the speed of light, or something that would define a crease in time/space.

Some good posts you all. We've come down today to the times our Lord Jesus and His Apostles and prophets have warned us about a great affliction coming. Who knowing His Word could miss these times today? Those on the "strong delusion" will not understand. I must give a warning here, because part of the "strong delusion" apostle Paul was speaking about some have sought to change into a different type of warning than what is written. Mark 13 is a good Chapter to recall in relation to the "strong delusion", because it goes along with the seven seals of Revelation 6, and what Paul was warning us about. That means our Lord was giving us an outline of end time events just prior to His coming. Mark 13:1-37 1 And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples saith unto Him, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, "Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?" Christ and His disciples are on the Mount of Olives, the very place where our Lord ascended to Heaven per Acts 1, and the very spot where His feet are to set down at His coming per Zechariah 14. His disciples looked at the then standing Temple complex of buildings, and wondered at them. Our Lord said a time would come when literally not one stone on top of another would be standing there, and they then asked what the sign of that would be. In Matthew 24, the parallel to this Witness, His disciples asked that question in a more revealing way... Matt 24:3 3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (KJV) THIS is how we are to study God's Word, and measure all things against It. If the Matt.24 witness had been left out of this, then the deceivers could apply these signs just to 70 A.D. when the all those buildings were destroyed, except for the Western Wall which still stands today. Christ's disciples asked Him specifically about the sign of His coming, and the end of this world. Neither one of those events have happenned yet today, so that obviously moves this sign our Lord Jesus is giving to the very end of this world, just prior to His coming. Note His disciples came to Him "privately" with that question. 5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many. In Rev.6, the first seal is about one who comes on a white horse to conquer. Our Lord's first warning is to not let any man deceive us. The rider on that horse has a crown of twine, and a bow of simple fabric, per the Greek of Rev.6. Who else comes riding a white horse per God's Word? Our Lord Jesus does, as in Rev.19. But this one in Rev.6 is not our Lord Jesus, not wearing a simple crown nor with a bow of cheap fabric, for our Lord Jesus returns with many diadems and a sword that cuts both ways. By that we should easily recognize this rider on the white horse of Rev.6 as a false one, an imposter, the "antichrist". This Mark 13:6 verse points to many coming in Christ's Name, saying "I am Christ", and shall deceive many. In 1 John 2:18, Apostle John mentioned that "antichrist" shall come, and that even then already there were "many antichrists". Later in Mark 13 our Lord is going to point to a specific false one in relation to the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. That means to keep the "many antichrists" and "antichrist" separate, for they are different entities. The many antichrists are used to set the stage in prep for the main antichrist, to bring the "strong delusion" Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2. They are the "mystery of iniquity", the workers for the "antichrist" that is to come riding upon a white horse, trying to mimic the way our Lord Jesus returns upon a white horse. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. We've all heard this verse quoted to the hilt, but often deceivingly, because only the first part is stressed while the last two phrases are mostly left out. The last two phrases show us that as long as we do hear of wars and rumors of wars, then the end, or the very last events are not yet. So what's the opposite of wars and rumors of wars? The opposite is a time of peace. What is it that mankind today wants? World peace. There are even many earthly organizations that claim to be working for that purpose of world peace. The globalists want it, even as they want their "one world government" system to be head over it. We should mark that difference our Lord Jesus has revealed here. The apostle Paul also mentioned this opposite time of world peace on earth, in 1 Thess.5, that when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then sudden destruction will come upon 'them'. That's a sign that the very end is to be a time when all wars and rumors of wars have stopped, and a type of world peace will be over the earth. It will be a real world peace, but for deceptive reasons under that false one that comes riding on the first white horse. That relates directly to the time of the "strong delusion" Paul warned of. So this Mark 13 sign relates to the second seal of Rev.6, that of war. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. This is the third and fourth seals of Rev.6, for it covers famines and troubles. The third seal is that of the balances of world commerce. We are told 'a measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny', meaning you'd have to work all day just to buy a loaf of bread. It's to be a time of spiritual famine also (per Amos 8), and that's why Rev.6:6 says to not hurt the oil nor the wine (symbols for God's Truth by The Holy Spirit). 9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Why is this delivering up of Christ's servants left out of most of today's preaching in the pulpits? It would run most of the congregation off, no doubt. But that's the difference when listening to men compared to listening to our Lord in His Word. We are to 'keep' His Word, just like those of the church of Philadelphia, and not be cow-towed by men. This event is about the fifth seal of Rev.6, as we are shown the souls under the altar that were slain for The Word of God, and the Testimony which they held for Christ. They cried for God's vengeance upon the earth, but were told to rest yet a little while, until their brethren on the earth were likewise killed as they were, giving that Testimony for Christ by The Holy Spirit. Here's the divisions amongst our brethren and families today. It's the difference between those who are already deceived and setup for the "strong delusion", compared to those in Christ who hold to His Word that are not deceived. Today, families are being torn apart as that time of delivering gets closer. Verse 10 about The Gospel being first published among all nations is often understood to mean The Gospel being preached to all nations since Christ died on the cross. But it has a deeper meaning as given here among these verses about Christ's own being delivered up to councils and synagogues. The purpose of their being delivered up is to give a Testimony, a Witness for Christ by The Holy Spirit speaking through them like what happenned on the day of Pentecost. In other words, God is going to speak to the whole world through His servants when they are delivered up in the last days. This is why our Lord Jesus said for His not to "premeditate" what they will say beforehand, but to speak what The Holy Spirits gives to say in that 'hour'. What time would that especially be for, in relation to the tribulation timing? It will be during the tribulation, when "antichrist" has arrived and in power over all nations. In Rev.13:11, another beast is mentioned, and it represents a religious beast. This event is set for that time when the "synagogues" (means churches) will have been taken over completely, and in service to the antichrist. The working towards that operation has been going on for quite some time now, through world organizations like the World Council of Churches. Just as there is a global economy today, and movements towards a global army, and a global educational system, likewise there's a working towards a one-world global religion. Don't be deceived about that working of the "mystery of iniquity". When that comes, that is how brother shall betray brother to death, and the father the son, and children shall rise up against their parents to cause them to be put to death. It's going to be a time similar to Hitler's Germany, and Stalin's Communist Russia, with those in fear of their lives turning their own loved ones in, and having them delivered up. Don't fear it our Lord Jesus says, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives you to say in that hour. That's the 5th seal our Lord Jesus was covering. 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. This is a specific warning for Christ's servants that are caught in Jerusalem during the tribulation when the antichrist comes. The "abomination of desolation" is especially about an idol placed in the holy place, and for Jerusalem that specific "holy place" Jesus said in the Matt.24 version of this means inside a physical Temple. That event parallels Rev.13:15 when the antichrist will setup an idol image for all people to worship. Per the historical Babylon parallel, Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, setup a gold image of himself for all to bow down in worship to at the sound of the psalter (musical cue). Daniel and his brethren refused, and thus were delivered up in front of the king of Babylon for sentence to be executed. Why would our Lord Jesus say, "But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" That's a very... strong warning. And it is a spiritual warning per the Old Testament allegories to not be found travailing with child, spiritually. To travail with child in the spiritual sense per The Bible means to be deceived and in false worship to another, not staying a "chaste virgin" spiritually, but bowing to the "another Jesus" (2 Cor.11). Praying that your flight is not in 'winter' is another spiritual analogy given in The Word of God. It's about the "untimely figs" parable in Rev.6:13, which talks about the stars (angels) from heaven falling to earth even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when shaken by a might wind. In Rev.12:6-9 we are told that Satan and his angels are cast out of Heaven down to this earth after the war in Heaven with him and his angels, vs. Michael and his angels. And when he is cast down to the earth he goes to make war with the saints. This is the sixth seal our Lord Jesus was giving, per Rev.6:12-13. It's related to the fig tree parable. In nature, there are some figs that grow in the winter but drop off just prior to spring-summer. They're good for nothing. The idea of fleeing in "winter" points to the parable, because it's about deception to the "untimely figs" (Satan and his host). The time when Christ's servants are to flee (gather to Him) is the 'summer' harvest, remember? (Luke 21:28-31). The basic Message is that if you flee in winter, then you've been deceived into thinking that the antichrist is Christ come, and bowed too early and to the wrong Christ, not having waited until the proper time of summer harvest later by Christ Jesus. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. The word "affliction" is the same Greek word translated "tribulation" in the Matthew 24 parallel to this. Our Lord Jesus has already given us plenty of signs to be watching for in the end. So there's not really a need to try and do dating with the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy, especially since our Lord Jesus says here He has 'shortened' that time of tribulation upon His servants. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, "Lo, here is Christ"; or, "lo, he is there"; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Our Lord Jesus already told us about the "abomination of desolation" being setup in the holy place in Jerusalem, and through His servant John about the time when Satan and his angels will be booted out of Heaven down to the earth to persecute His saints, and about a false one (dragon) setting up a false image for the whole world to worship, and that dragon even doing great wonders and miracles in the sight of men (per Rev.13:11 forward). He gave us the clue of the rider on the white horse as a warning in comparing to His true coming on a white horse, and now... our Lord Jesus is very specific about a false Christ(pseudochristos in the Greek), that some will say, "Lo, here is Christ". How much more warning does our Lord Jesus need to give us to know that's the antichrist that must come, and is the heart of the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2? In Matthew 24, our Lord Jesus gave this specific warning about a false Christ two times for emphasis. Our Lord Jesus even gave a comparison to the level or power of those great signs and wonders that false Christ will work on the earth. It's to be such a powerful working that it would ALMOST deceive His "very elect" servants. It's really going to be a big show, and the majority of peoples on earth are going to believe it, all those who's names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. That means brethren, many of our 'own' are going to be deceived and wrongly believe on that false Christ. 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. By the time this event of Christ's true coming occurs, the seventh seal and seventh trumpet will have come. This is VERY plain that Christ's coming is AFTER the great tribulation of events He taught thus far. In verse 25 He is giving us reminder again that the stars of heaven shall fall, meaning Satan and his angels are coming to this earth. In other words, He is giving us yet another... clue, as to who the antichrist on earth is going to be; it will be the devil himself cast to the earth that will cause that great tribulation as He showed earlier on the sixth seal event. 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. This is the only time of the gathering of Christ's saints. It is for after the tribulation as written here. Men have other ideas, but our Lord Jesus in His Word here is very clear as to the timing and order of events of His Own coming and gathering of His saints. That event is given at the end of Rev.6, and is tied to the seventh seal and seventh trumpet per Rev.11:15. It is also when the third last 'woe' happens per Rev.11. The first 'woe' happens with the 5th trumpet, and the 2nd 'woe' with the 6th trumpet. But the last 'woe' is on the 7th trumpet, which is when the gathering to Christ will happen as written. 28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Understanding the parable of the fig tree in The Bible is very important in understanding what our Lord covered in the previous verses, like that warning to pray our flight (gathering) is not in "winter" to the untimely or out of season figs. This generation our Lord is talking about means the very last generation on earth just prior to His coming and gathering of His saints. Most pastors realize the timing for that, when Israel became a nation again in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote, since Israel had not been a nation for around 2000 years. That would mean the generation born in 1948 is the last generation prior to Christ's coming, and that is when to start looking for these specific endtime events. It cannot apply to the generation of Christ's Apostles, because remember, these events include the sign of Christ's coming and the end of this world. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. No man knows the specific "day and that hour" when Christ's coming will occur. The timing our Lord Jesus gives here with that generation of the fig tree is a 'season', not the day and hour. We can know the 'season', for He gave that to us. 34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. (KJV) Our Lord Jesus gave us the command to be watching for those events He gave us. That is not a command like go about your business and don't worry because we can't know the day or hour, and thus disregard the season and signs He gave us to be watching. If you're one of His, you'll be watching and stay on guard like a watchman. If not, you'll be deceived by men and the doctrines of men. The apostle Paul gave this warning also about those who sleep, sleep in the night (1 Thess.5). He reminded us to be sober and watching. It's because His servants are going to be spiritually and physically tested during this tribulation.

I don't think knowing when the tribulation starts per God's Word is that difficult, IF we allow God's Word to interpret itself. Per Daniel 11, a vile person is to make a league (pact, covenant) in Jerusalem and a "small people" (small group) will be with him in foresaking the Holy Covenant. And he will place the abomination that maketh desolate. In the Book of Daniel what was the main abomination that got Daniel and his fellows into trouble during their Babylon captivity? A golden idol image of Nebuchadnezzar which he had setup for all to bow in worship at the sound of the psalter. In Revelation 13, what is it that will be setup for all to bow in worship, and to receive its mark? Another idol image of the beast. It's also simple to know who 'the' antichrist is, for the 1 John 2:18 verse has both 'antichrist' in the singular tense, and in the plural tense. Common sense says to ask per The Bible who the main antichrist has been all along, which can only be Satan since he was the first to rebel against God in wanting to put himself in God's stead. The word 'antichrist' per the Greek can also mean 'in place of' Christ, or 'instead of' Christ, not just 'against' Christ. Either way, the devil has been the top paramount in that working. In Rev.12:6-17 we are told Satan is to be booted out of Heaven down to the earth along with his angels, and is given in association with tribulation timings (like the 1260 days of Daniel). In Rev.11:7, we are told that "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" will kill God's "two witnesses" He sends in the last days to Jerusalem. In 2 Thess.2:3-4, the apostle Paul told us the "son of perdition", "man of sin", "that Wicked" will come first to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. And many will 'fall away' (become apostate) because of that event. In that same Chapter, Paul says Christ will come to destroy that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming. In Rev.9:11 forward, we are told the locust army has a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, and his name is Abaddon in Hebrew, and Apollyon in Greek, which both mean 'Destroyer'. On the 6th trumpet, and 2nd woe, that locust army is to be loosed on earth for a period of "five months". Per Matthew 24, our Lord Jesus showed the "great tribulation" is to be shortened for His elect's sake. That means the "last week" of Daniel has been shortened. We know Christ was talking about the days just prior to His return in Matthew 24, because that prophecy includes His coming and the gathering of the saints. Trying to limit that prophecy to 70 A.D. is simply a sign of deception. Afterall, there are many false prophets out there that don't want us to recognize the times and seasons per God's Word. The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem do intend to build another Temple in Jerusalem for the last days. Since the apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 that the "man of sin" is to come and sit in God's Temple for purpose of false worship, even showing himself that he is God, that's pointing to another Temple in Jerusalem in the last days prior to Christ's return. Paul was not simply talking about a metaphor with that, but a real Temple, but used for false purposes. With God sending His "two witnesses" to Jerusalem in the last days, and the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit killing them, it doesn't take much common sense to understand there's going to be a major false worship event in Jerusalem for the last days, and it will cause many to become apostates away from Christ. We are told in Rev.11 that all nations will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses lay in the street of Jerusalem for three and a half days. Only in today's generation has there been technology possible to make that happen, pointing out that event is for the very last days just prior to Christ's coming. In Christ's Olivet Discourse per Matt.24, He told His servants that were caught in Jerusalem when those events occur to get out of that area. Today there are some among the Messianic Jewish community that are preaching for a return to today's Jerusalem. Our Lord associated the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel with a false idol being set in the holy place, meaning inside the Temple. Antiochus didn't fulfill that in 170 B.C., nor did the Roman army in 70 A.D. It's about the false image setup for worship mentioned in Revelation 13, and its associated "mark of the beast". So there are events of prophecy for the last days that point to another Temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's return. In Mark 13 at the start, Christ's disciples with Him on the Mount of Olives looked at the Temple Mount complex and its buildings, and wondered at them. Christ said the time would come that not one stone would be standing on top of another there, and His disciples understood that to mean at His coming and the end of this world. They were correct to understand it that way too, otherwise our Lord would have corrected them there. Even a portion of the Western Wall of the old Temple complex still stands in Jerusalem today, showing that prophecy is indeed for the time when the great earthquake in Jerusalem occurs that is linked with Christ's coming (Zech.14; Rev.11; 16). In an indirect way, our Lord was pointing to another Temple standing there for the time of His coming. So the building of another Temple in today's Jerusalem is another sign of tribulation timing.

Exactly. Secular humanism and Darwinism can become one's religion at the expense of true science. Anyone ever heard of Diffusionism? I guess that's what the mainstream Harvard archaeological school types label me as, since I definitely believe the pre-Columbian evidence in the Americas of ancient world travelers here. There was a stone found in Louden, Tenn. many years ago, in association with so-called Indian burial mounds. Problem for the Smithsonians though, because the stone was directly under the head of one of nine skeletons, and it had Paleo-Hebrew inscriptions on it. It's called the Bat Creek Stone. The Harvard types denied it was Paleo-Hebrew because there was one inscription they couldn't translate. And that was because it was a Massorah inscription. Only someone trained in the Massorah notes made by the Hebrew scribes would understand how to translate it. That actually made the identity of the remains more specificly as Hebrew priests or scribes that had training in the Massorah notes that surround the borders of the oldest copies of Old Testament manuscripts. And what did the Smithsonian elites do with that Bat Creek Stone? Did they put it out on public display? No, they put it in the back room, with the rest of the artifacts that go against their mainstream theory of evolution of species. The other so-called Indian burial mounds that were in that same area were later bull-dozed over. Same type of thing happened on a farm near where a friend lives. The farmer found a so-called Indian burial mound, and called the Smithsonian folks. My friend was allowed by the farmer to go inside it. She said one of the decayed bodies still had strands of 'red' hair on its skull. Of course, the Smithsonian elites destroyed that one too. Burial mounds were not just common to American woodland Indian culture, but also among the Halstadt culture in Austria, where they're also found. It was not uncommon for the early Celtic and Scythian tribes to bury their nobles and kings in such mounds, along with their horses, armour, etc., similar to an Egyptian burial. Then there's the Kennsington Rhunestone, the Ohio Decalogue stone, not to mention many megolith structures in the areas of New England. Per David Deal's Discovery of Ancient America, the Toltecs of Mexico had Canaanite-Hebrew words in their language. (Also see Dr. Barry Fell's America B.C.. In my college history text, it said the American Indians got to the Americas via a lang bridge in the Bering Straights. That would jive with Old Testament history in Genesis about the scattering of the peoples to the four corners of the earth after the tower of Babel event. I was told that's what the Harvard school deems as Diffusionism. Guess I'm a Diffusionist then, because the alternative of believing that each peoples sprang up independently on each continent like tadpoles in separate ponds is ludicrous.

I too was wondering if this isn't your own interpretation or ideas Celt because I've never seen any representation as to any symbolic meaning to the woman having five husbands - escept for how the Lord knows all things about us. What source/sources are you basing your ideas on? The five husbands being symbolic is based upon our Lord's Message there about true worship vs. false worship. And it's based on the five pagan gods that the five nations or peoples from Babylon brought with them into Samaria, when they became the Samaritans. And also, it's based on why God brought the king of Assyria upon Samaria to take the ten tribes out of that land in captivity to the land of the Medes beforehand, i.e., because of falling away to false idol worship. The reason why even Christ's disciples that saw Him speaking to the Samaritan woman wondered why He would bother, was because of that history about the foreigners that became the later Samaritans. Per the history of 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, God took ten tribes away from Solomon's heir (Rehoboam), and gave the ten northern tribes to one of the house of Joseph of Ephraim, Jeroboam. God setup Jeroboam as king in Samaria over the ten tribes, and they became a separate kingdom called the "house of Israel". The tribes of Judah and Benjamin ("house of Judah") remained in Jerusalem/Judea as their own kingdom under rule by Solomon's son. Those two kingdoms of God's people made war against each other thereafter. And Jeroboam, king of Israel in Samaria, did a unique thing against God. He setup two golden calf idols in the north for the ten tribes to worship, instead of allowing their going down to Jerusalem to worship properly at that time. Jeroboam also made common priests of the people, instead of allowing the sons of Levi to do their job among the ten tribes. King Jeroboam didn't want the ten tribes going down to Jerusalem and possibly join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, augmenting their numbers and their army. The Samaritan woman at the well knew exactly what our Lord was speaking about concerning old worship at Samaria vs. going down to Jerusalem to worship... John 4:20 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and Ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. (KJV) That's part of the Samaritan woman's answer when Christ asked her to go get her husband. During the time of the kings of Israel at Samaria, some of them would do better in following God's commandments then, but still... allow that old golden calf idol worship to continue there. So it's not chance that the subject of John 4 eventually changes to the idea of false worship. And thus the Samaritan woman's five husbands are very symbolic in that respect. Surely, you all are familar with the metaphor of Who our true Husband is per Scripture? (Isaiah 54:5; 2 Cor.11:2) So who is the 6th that Samaritan woman was living with at the time, which our Lord pointed out she was only living with? What does that 6th one represent? The 6th one represents the Antichrist. That's why this Message about worship in John 4 is of utmost importance for us in these last days. Per God's Word, when one goes into false worship against Him, it's like joining in spiritual harlotry against Him, even marrying another in His stead. This type metaphor appears throughout OT history, and again in the New Testament Books, so I'm surprised at how many apparently have missed it. I mean, there's what Paul said in 2 Cor.11 that he has espoused us to one Husband (Christ, in the spiritual sense), the idea of remaining a betrothed virgin to Christ prepared as a Bride, etc., etc. How could all this be missed?

You're wrong, I haven't insulted anyone by what I said, for it was a very true statement of admonition. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with those who are not able to understand that try. My comment has to do with those who are very able, but too lazy to get into a line by line study of all of God's Word, and would rather push popular notions about the antichrist that are outside of God's Word. There's a huge difference.

When our Lord Jesus went through Samaria on the way to Galilee, He stopped at Jacob's well in Sychar, and spoke to a Samaritan woman. He declared to her that He had Living Waters that you'd never get thirsty if you drank from it. Most know in John 4 our Lord was talking about His Salvation going to the Gentiles also. Yet is there more to what He was saying there at the well to the Samaritan woman? This is an example of once knowing your Old Testament history, one discovers our Lord Jesus was saying a lot more. John 4:5-9 5 Then cometh He to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with His journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. 7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, "Give me to drink." 8 (For His disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto Him, "How is it that Thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans." (KJV) Samaria was an area to the north, above Judea/Jerusalem. Judah at that time wouldn't have anything to do with the Samaritans living there, but why? It's because they were foreigners, not of Israel. Samaria was originally the capital city of the northern kingdom of Israel, with its own king after God split the 12 tribes into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11 forward). The kings of Assyria took all of the ten tribes out of those lands and supplanted foreigners from five Babylon provinces in their stead. Thus the Jews wouldn't have anything to do with those foreigners who had taken over the land of Samaria. Yet our Lord Jesus spake to the woman at the well. John 4:10-12 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and Who it is That saith to thee, "Give Me to drink"; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto Him, "Sir, Thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast Thou that living water?" 12 Art Thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? (KJV) Our Lord is basically saying that if she knew about God's Salvation, and Who He was, she would have been asking Him for that Salvation, the Waters of Life. That's a Message from our Lord Jesus that His Salvation was to go also to the Gentiles, which the Samaritan woman represents. But look at the 12th verse, how is it that she claims Jacob as her ancestor? Why would this be included in this Message here? If Jacob was her ancestor, why would she be curious of why Jesus spoke to her, since she said she was a Samaritan, in the sense of a foreigner? Our Lord will sort this out here shortly for us. Those foreigners from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and Sepharvaim represented five pagan areas, each with their own false god in false worship (2 Kings 17). They started having all sorts of problems when they were brought into the land of Samaria, so the king of Assyria brought out of captivity a priest for them to teach them the ways of The God in that land of Samaria. So they feared God, but kept worshipping their pagan gods they brought with them from Babylon. John 4:13-15 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, "Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." 15 The woman saith unto Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw." (KJV) Then our Lord begins revealing to her His Waters of Life of Salvation. But she mistakes it for something carnal that she could have right then, just so she wouldn't have to keep coming back to that well to draw water. John 4:16-18 16 Jesus saith unto her, "Go, call thy husband, and come hither." 17 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said unto her, "Thou hast well said, 'I have no husband:' 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly." (KJV) The "five husbands" are symbolic of those five false pagan gods that each of those foreign peoples from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and Sepharvaim brought with them into Samaria when placed there by the king of Assyria. God had removed all of the ten tribes of Israel out of those lands captive to the land of Medes, for doing exactly the same kind of thing against Him, bowing to idols which are no gods. And now, other nations had taken over those lands of promise. That parcel of ground where Jacob's well was, was given to his son Joseph, and Joseph inherited God's birthright handed down from Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Genesis). God did exactly what He said He would do to Israel if they rebelled against Him by going into false worship (Deut.4; 28). John 4:19-22 19 The woman saith unto Him, "Sir, I perceive that Thou art a prophet." 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and Ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship." 21 Jesus saith unto her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." (KJV) Who might be her fathers that worshipped in the mountains of Samaria? Most likely, one of those peoples from the five nations out of Babylon the king of Assyria placed there when he took the ten tribes captive out of that land. It's very important to note that our Lord Jesus changed the subject here, or finally brought out what He was speaking to her about all along, i.e., that of false worship in Samaria, instead of proper worship in Jerusalem at that time per God's Salvation Plan. The Samaritan woman knows what our Lord is pointing to involving worship. Then our Lord tells her, "Ye worship ye know not what", pointing to the difference. John 4:23-29 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Then our Lord lays out the proper worship to come by the New Covenant, being even different than the then required worship at Jerusalem per the Old Covenant. 25 The woman saith unto Him, "I know that Messias cometh, Which is called Christ: when He is come, He will tell us all things." 26 Jesus saith unto her, "I that speak unto thee am He." 27 And upon this came His disciples, and marvelled that He talked with the woman: yet no man said, 'What seekest Thou? or, Why talkest Thou with her?' 28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 29 "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?" (KJV) Summary: The number Five in Biblical numerics represents Grace. Even though the woman's five husbands represent those five pagan gods those peoples of five areas of Babylon brought with them, the lesson is that Christ's Salvation Message would go to them also. But for all of God's people now, this is especially a Message to show what will happen with God's Promises if we fall away from Him to do false worship. This would have never happened if the ten tribes in Samaria hadn't gone into pagan idoltry. At the same time, if the ten tribes hadn't fallen away from God, those peoples supplanted in Samaria wouldn't have found Grace through Christ's Salvation being offerred to them also. The question then is now, who does the 6th husband the woman was living with then, represent?

Since a lot of speculation is being done here, what about this thought concerning the sin in God's Garden... What if Eve had never succumbed to the temptation? In other words, how could have God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ been brought without that first sin? How would death have been imparted to all men without it? Here's the verse Paul gave which someone mentioned earlier... 1 Tim 2:13-15 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (KJV) Does that mean Adam didn't know what Eve did, since he was not deceived and not in the transgression? We know Adam had a part in the sin, though most likely not the same part Eve had. Yet Adam is held responsible also, because God set the order of Adam being over Eve. In my 'opinion', God's Salvation Plan could not have come without that first sin, so I believe God knew it would happen, the flesh being weak. By the time Satan is in the Garden tempting Eve, he's already in his role as the adversary, meaning the battle lines had already been drawn, and God's Salvation Plan was ready to be put in place. And this is why all in the flesh have sinned, so that Salvation could be by Faith on His Son Who had no sin (Gal.3:22). When studying those first Chapters of Genesis, it's important to always keep in mind that Satan had already rebelled against God and was judged. And, that God's Salvation Plan was especially sent in order to defeat death and the devil (Heb.2:14). So it's not about who had the greater sin in God's Garden, for it's clear "that old serpent" actually had the greater sin, and wanted company. Satan merely attacked Eve first, because maybe if he had her in his clasp first, Adam would more easily follow? Concerning the original post here, I believe woman to be the weaker according to flesh needs for the purpose of preservation of the species. God put a mothering nature more in woman to ensure that preservation, whereas the man will take great risks of his flesh to protect the woman to aid in that preservation. A woman will take great risks mostly to protect her young, but not as much when there's no need. A man will take great risks for many other reasons, or sometimes for no reason at all. The imbalance being pushed today by socialist 'political correctness' doctrines is designed to break that balance and put the woman at the same risks man takes (like women in direct combat, etc.). The socialist agenda is concerned about world population control, so that's one way to help control they think, put the woman in the same risks that men have. The socialists are merely disguising that aim by using levers to make today's women think they've missed out on alleged special privledges that man has.

I don't know why you appear to have such a guilty conscious ColleenLovesMischief, I didn't direct my comments at you specifically. Many Ministers in the pulpits are the ones most responsible, because they want the unlearned to depend on them for their Bible interpretation instead of promoting line by line Bible study for a believer to have direct access by The Holy Spirit. Too much outside source material from their Quarterlies written in some far away city is brought into the pulpit instead allowing The Bible to interpret The Bible. However, if my comments fit your case, then I'd recommend you going deeper into God's Word for yourself, as I recommend that to all Bible students. As for my "attitude", what is your authority, just your personal opinion? I know what I said in my previous post is correct, and just maybe because of the way I said it, it might just cause some to go deeper on this antichrist subject within God's Word instead of heeding the many outside sources I've seen pushed on this forum about it.