oak

The spirit of Holden is in a state of mostly confusion and bitterness. He has no anchor to give his life meaning. However he takes the reader into his confidence and is truthful about his thoughts which captivates many readers. Holden puts a magnifying lens to the ugliness of human behavior, which makes the reader want to be on his side. The book faithfully keeps to an adolescent way of expressing one's thoughts and actions. It is a relief to hear a book express life in this way and creates a wide gap with perhaps all literature up to the point of publication in around 1950. I was a great fan of this book when reading it at 13 years old and felt vindicated. As an example, when Holden is being lectured about life being a game of rules, Holden thinks: "Game my a**. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hotshots are, then it's game, all right - I'll admit that. But if you are on the other side, where there aren't any hotshots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game."1 However this book is tied to famous deaths and attempted death: Chapman, Hinckley etc. So I looked at the book more closely. The first noticeable thing is that the book has the spirit of war - Salinger served in some heavy fighting during WWII and saw death camps. So "Catcher" has many violent images (mostly in the imagination of Holden): "...pretending I had a bullet in my guts...blood trickling out of my side of my mouth a little at a time...holding onto my guts, blood leaking all over the place...I'd plug him anyway...Six shots in his fat hairy belly." 2 There is also the spirit of using the Lord's name in vain. "G*d*m," Chr*s**.ke," is almost on every other page creating an evil affect. Also, the spirit of rebellion. He's not able to deal with education nor handle alcohol, as well as asking for a prostitute, and hating the adult world. When Holden proposes marriage to a date, and living in the woods, the girl starts talking about conventions. Holden's reply: "...We'd have to go downstairs in elevators and suitcases and stuff. We'd have to phone up everybody and send 'em postcards from hotels and all...playing bridge...There's always a stupid horse race...It wouldn't be the same [as his escaping into the woods] at all." 3 For our times this is mild and probably will not raise any eyebrows. But why do some of the readers and great followers get inspired to kill. I feel the things that I wrote about contribute to a hatred of any kind of authority. Plus, Holden innocently states his belief in an early part of the book, when speaking about his red hunting cap: "This is a people shooting hat..."I shoot people in this hat." 4 Oak 1 J.D, Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye, 8. (Little Brown, and Company) 2Salinger, Catcher, 103-104 3Salinger, Catcher, 133 4Salinger, Catcher, 22

First you ask a good question because it show's a true concern for God's will. I have asked questions exactly like yours. This made me realize my main spiritual work is to put myself closer to God, first. You can't quite go and start ministering to the world without being severely honest with yourself in regards to your actions and relation with God. This means prayer, repentance, fasting (it doesn't have to be just food.) The point really is to develop your conscience. This is such an important point: "...while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse them or even excuse them...on that day when...God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." Rom 2:15&16 "...I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit." Rom 9:1 You see the better our conscience gets, the better our sense of right and wrong. We will better sense what God wants from us. Is there pride in your wanting to minister etc. Peter in "1 Peter 3:21" says, [that baptism is not cleansing the body of dirt but rather used], "as an appeal for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." I am not telling you to go at it alone but rather, just pointing out what will help you, discern more clearly. And whatever good you do, do it in the name of Christ. Oak

Well DRS81, this is a good question. However if prophesy is an open subject, think of what it would be like if OSAS, homosexuality or even Barack Obama was listed as a open Topic. The recent confusion was caused by a now locked topic, Prophecy of anti-Christ. When I read it, I was stunned but I didn't answer it right away, I went to scripture. I found the poster to be in great error; his post was based in large part by quoting from Daniel on a prophesy that Daniel saw. However even Daniel couldn't figure it out and he prayed and received an answer from Gabriel. So a poster was re-interpreting and misinterpreting what Gabriel already explained starting at Daniel 9:20. By the time I was ready to post, the post was locked. I sent my warning to a moderator who told me the topic was locked. Thinking I was misinterpreted, I sent the message to quite a few moderators and I need to add myself to your topic of pulling "my hair out." In the final analysis and more directly to your topic, if Christians can't agree on what is stated and has happened in scripture, what do you expect from something that is coded and has not happened? Yet, to me it shows a great concern about the truth and that is good. As long as your focused on scripture it's better than pulling your hair out over the world. Also, there is a triple blessing for those who read Revelations. Oh, I almost forgot in terms of the Christ and Jewish issue that your topic slanted towards think about Israel becoming a state, and God's promises to save the Jews. That is indeed Gospel - good news. Oak

With your help I tried to pull it all together. My first question is this a singular event or can it be applied to all Christians? Ninahoa: This can be applied to all Christians caught in sin and is a principle also demonstrated by Jesus in Matthew 18. Does Paul assume that repentance will follow? A Flame of Fire: He follows up on that one in 2 Corinthians 2:6 Ninahao: "Paul doesn’t assume repentance but shows what do if repentance is present in 2 Corinthians 2. Does, the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture? I agree with Ninahoe on 1 Timothy 1:20 as far as Job the method is the same but Job is not a grave sinner: "Behold, all that he [Job] has is in your hand Satan] Only against him [Job] do not stretch out your hand [death]." Jb 1:12, "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold." Jb. 23:10 What does this say about the authority of the Church and why is it not practiced today? Ninahoa:The Church today often doesn’t practice this teaching because they shy from practicing righteous judgment. This is a new age philosophy that allows the leaven of sin to remain unchecked. I think the lesson can be seen in Scripture, especially pertaining to Israel, where God will not tolerate unrepentant sin amid His people. As Christians we should expect to be disciplined if we are God’s children. One With Him: 1 Corinthians was written by Paul to a church that had lost it's way. The church at Corinth was allowing customs and rituals of their people to come into the church. Paul was using this one person as an example of how to deal with people who have put sin first yet claim to have something from God. Sexual sin is destroying the church right now, but it's happening one person at a time. The lust of the flesh in many cases is stronger than one's desire to remain close to God Paul was trying to put this church back on the path to righteousness. [i realize you cover more than just one question but I felt this would be a good spot for your comment.] Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown? I think the rule of thumb is that all scripture is open to being read and contemplated. Can we think that God does this if the Church is no longer using its authority? Yes now and before the Church; the following scripture attests to this question: "So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:6 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 1 Peter 5:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction Isaiah 48:10 What overall lesson's can we learn from this scripture? "Your righteousness, O God, reaches the high heavens. You have done great things, O God, who is like you?" Ps. 71:19 Also, outside this scripture, how do you read, "and such were some of you. But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ! Cor. 6:11. Especially if one church member was deemed unworthy of this grace? Since the sexually immoral person was part of the Church, I would think he took all the rites of the Church but his particular sin made him unworthy.

The cross represents the loss of all things. It means to follow Jesus at the expense of one's reputation, which in Jesus' day was everything. The cross was a scandal. To follow Jesus can often create a scanda. A good example of this is Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty who was suspended for stating the convictions of his Christian faith. Oak: Yes, the cross at those times meant crucifixion and I will have to look at my overgeneralization more closely - I may be wrong. However in those times wasn't life much more harsher. Adultery was punishable by death. Joseph wanted to put away Mary because he risked losing his reputation. Was the rich young man in danger of losing his way of life, family, friends, reputation if he followed Christ? Further doesn't Christ put spirituality on higher level when he said, "If you love your father or mother more than me, you are not worthy of me..." Matt 10:37 So, could it be stated that anything that interferes with your love of Christ can mean isolation from Him? So in essence, generalizing in terms of the cross is not a correct answer but if we look at those times, they are certainly don't resemble our contemporary society. And that is worth mentioning. I don't know anything about the Duck Dynasty but I may give it a look.

Oh, oh, you asked a rather unpopular question. However the first instance of carrying your cross, appears in Mathew. "And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." Mt. 10:38 In my opinion, this is expounded on more when a rich young man approaches Christ and asks Him, "...what good must I do to have eternal life?" Mt. 19:16 Christ tells him that he should "keep the commandments." Mt. 19:17 To this the rich man, asks, "which ones" and Christ specifies commandments that have to do with our neighbors. Mt !9:18 The rich man confirms that he has kept them but what can he be lacking? Christ tells him, "...If you would be perfect go, sell what you posses and give to the poor, and you will have treasures in heaven; and come follow me." Mt 19:21. The man sorrowfully leaves for he is very rich (his cross). So, again in my opinion, carrying your cross is dealing with all manner of things that keep you from the straight and narrow path to Christ. This brings up works which in themselves can not merit salvation, however they are a an essential way of aligning ourselves with Christ. That is, we must choose and show who we are as followers of Christ, everyday. Corrected on 12/19: Carrying your Cross is to die to what stands in the way of following Christ...

I read 1 Corinthians but this somehow alluded me. The quote is, "you are to deliver this man to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord." In this section in general, Paul singles out a man for incest, and demands his removal by the Church. Also, in general this passage dissuades Corinthian' Christians from judging people outside the faith. My first question is this a singular event or can it be applied to all Christians? Does, the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture? Does Paul assume that repentance will follow? What does this say about the authority of the Church and why is it not practiced today? Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown? Can we think that God does this if the Church is no longer using its authority? What overall lesson's can we learn from this scripture? Also, outside this scripture, how do you read, "and such were some of you. But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ! Cor. 6:11. Especially if one church member was deemed unworthy of this grace? , Oak PS I don't expect all my answers to be answered. Feel free to comment on just one. And I thank you in Christ's name.

Good subject, and I saw something that should be highlighted in it. Make your problem, what ever it might be, known to yourself, God, and another human being. It really is that simple. Secrets love darkness and they can have a lot of power over a person to the point of controlling their lives. Addictions are a good example of this. Making a secret known drags it into the light and robs it of that power. Confessing our faults is something we are supposed to do as believers any way (only to the right people, obviously.) Worried about what others will think? Don't. If they really love you they will support you -- if they don't then now you know there is a problem and can do something about it. I've lost quite a few family members and friends over the years, and it never gets easier. Each is different in its own way according to the relationships between us, but Jesus has been the one constant through out all of that Who can be counted on to always be there. The worst part of loosing some of my friends over the years were the ones where I didn't know if they were saved. That can haunt you. Did I do enough to share the gospel with them? Did I take advantage of every opportunity, like Paul said? Not sure what else to say on that one, except that I think its normal to wonder in some cases, "Will I see these folks again?" Walla I like what you wrote and I had the same feeling of maybe if I would just say this or that but that leads you in circles. I would say use your knowledge on people that are alive now and maybe you'll be lucky to reach someone. God Bless. Oak GtC1187 said: I lost 2 of my best friends in the last three years. One was a Marine that mysteriously passed away while on furlough from Afghanistan at 25, he was a very loyal friend. The other was a volunteer firefighter who died in a motorcycle accident at 25 as well. They passed within about a year of each other and it hit me super hard... Oak said: Like I told desi, I'm not versed on innocent or accidental death - the topic was more people that I knew for years at in it seemed they shoved back there main problem and thought they could handle it. And It didn't come out that way. However, I feel bad for your losses and hope when you pray you may ask our King, what would You want me to learn from this tragedy?

Good subject, and I saw something that should be highlighted in it. Make your problem, what ever it might be, known to yourself, God, and another human being. It really is that simple. Secrets love darkness and they can have a lot of power over a person to the point of controlling their lives. Addictions are a good example of this. Making a secret known drags it into the light and robs it of that power. Confessing our faults is something we are supposed to do as believers any way (only to the right people, obviously.) Worried about what others will think? Don't. If they really love you they will support you -- if they don't then now you know there is a problem and can do something about it. I've lost quite a few family members and friends over the years, and it never gets easier. Each is different in its own way according to the relationships between us, but Jesus has been the one constant through out all of that Who can be counted on to always be there. The worst part of loosing some of my friends over the years were the ones where I didn't know if they were saved. That can haunt you. Did I do enough to share the gospel with them? Did I take advantage of every opportunity, like Paul said? Not sure what else to say on that one, except that I think its normal to wonder in some cases, "Will I see these folks again?" Desi2007 - Thank you for reply, however I never took on the task of writing about why people die in general. I think that some tried. For example a writer, Thornton Wilder " in his novel, "Bridge over San Luis Ray." wrote about 5 people who all died in a train accident. People dying young, or thru no discernible fault of their own, puzzle me, greatly. What I wrote about are people that couldn't handle their cross. It was too much to bare. "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Mt.10:38 I know people are edgy about this topic. And I have my number of well meaning critics who say, "what kind of friends do you have or what kind of life are you living, Oak?" And it's all fair but we have to get seriously honest about ourselves, especially in the times we're living. To be born again is to be broken like a sacrifice. There is no anesthetic for this process. Oak PS I'll answer the rest in one post but not just now.

I had three friends that died prematurely and I always looked at their awful decisions could only be explained by some sort of metaphysical wisdom. I remember them, one atheist two Christians as bright and gifted, full of life and love individuals'. There is not one topic we didn't touch upon while we discussed life. And as with all my friends, I refused to get into superficial conversation because even if the topic was superficial, like a movie, we'd dig deep into it; how did it effect your opinion of yourself, God / Christ, and the world? Let's speak clearly honestly and with care (hopefully). I'll tell how they died. The first was Ryan, an atheist who was my nephew-in-law; he committed suicide. The second was Victor, a Christian friend since adolescence; he died in hospital during his third surgery, for Hepatitis C. The third was Alex - a childhood Christian friend, - died after receiving a head wound (frying pan) from his girlfriend - and instead of seeking help, he simply went to sleep. And the reason I'm writing this is that I was recently in a life and death situation and I went straight to the Scriptures and kept at them till I found an answer. And I want the madness to be to an extent unveiled. Also, maybe I may reach out to a Christian who may identify with this hard subject and draw life affirming conclusions. Anyway why all the deaths? I'm lead to believe that in all cases they were very human reasons, except no one knows how deep they actually cut the person. Ryan told me he was abused as a child. Now, I have seen this cause as one of the most venomous ones in sufferers of mental and emotional disorders, addictions etc. To numb himself Ryan would go on drug binges but finally he met and married my niece. He showed great promise in treatment and graduated at the top of his Nursing Anesthesiologist class was invited to work in one of the top Hospitals in the country. To celebrate this he went to Mexico with my niece and went on one of his binges. This resulted in endless problems for over a period of time; he finally went into rehab (as he did before) and he called my niece from there and asked her to take him back (she wouldn't) - he left the rehab and overdosed. Ryan never quite was able to put his abuse into perspective and then he lost his only hope. Victor, had the misfortune of having terrifically successful siblings - brother and sister. He suffered from this in a very private way, and chose sales as a profession. He continuously kept taking big gambles that cost him. He was constantly trying to keep up with his brother who would buy a yacht, for instance. He was also predisposed to alcohol. He was a OSAS Christian who I would constantly - in a good way - would be searching scripture to make our points. He was fortunate in terms of The Lord, giving him time and the last thing he said to me was not scared of death and wanted "to be taken to his Daddy, Abba." Oh and he admitted to me that he thought siblings should never be compared. I didn't realize that was such a heavy cross for him to bare. Alex was a poster guy for popularity. He got many wonderful things in life. His desire for life's forbidden fruit was too much for him. So at the end he was a divorced man living with a divorced woman who were drinking excessively. He didn't really fit into the group I'm talking about; the people with unmet desires or having life force things upon you. But I had to mention him in remembrance. So, if you have a bitter battle over losing a loved one, not being able to have children, not being educated, being pushed around, not liking who you are or whatever else it may be, realize you have to be sincerely be honest with yourself and Christ. Make your problem known to close ones and / or therapist. Realize the stakes; this life is difficult. And no one is without bruises in this short life we have. May Christ bring you victory through your trials. Just don't take them lightly or numb yourself out of life. Oak

Butero, I wrote you a personal PM. However I find that I wrote a very personal post that is understandable just to me. I'm under a lot of pressure and communicating on to many levels right now. I ask that this post be removed, when a moderator has a chance.

I wrote something deeply personal about entitlement. But I mentioned so many things, that I feel the post is only understandable to me. I ask for it to be removed when a moderator has a chance. I may re-write in the near future. Sorry!

I sometimes arrive late in terms of post requests as in your case. However, I'll post this just in case. You've been given good spiritual advice but I am concerned that you may be suffering from an emotional illness that might need the help of a psychologist or psychiatrist - I think this site can refer you to people like that who are Christians as well. OCD, anxiety can put you at a great disadvantage . You may need medication. Your mind, seems to me, is going on auto-pilot, and I don't feel you can get it under control by yourself. Certainty of the Holy Spirit is wonderful but the Spirit may take time to develop you step by step. So first do what you can to get yourself in more of a stable state. So let me enumerate my advice both spiritual and earthly.. 1) At least get an opinion from a psychologist or a psychiatrist. 2) Seek a face to face spiritual advisor such as a priest or pastor. 3) Tackle your sins or spiritual problem one by one, don't take on everything at once - be a bit kind to yourself. 4) Continue to read scripture but I would suggest do so with care - start perhaps with Psalms they have helped plenty who suffer from evil attacks. 5) If you find something that really grabs a hold of you in the scriptures use it in your prayers. And use prayer on a consistent basis - for starters when you wake up and when you go to sleep. 6) Also seek to help people as it is suggested in the Bible. Visit those in prisons, hospitals, give to the needy. "visit orphans and widows in their affliction... James 1:22 But you can start with helping someone move and dedicate your action to Christ not yourself. God Bless you, Oak PS: Try to lead a structured life - evil loves the disorganized. .

And then we have churches that talk about God a lot, but never lead you towards encountering God. Religious form is good if there is a heart and soul to it; but what too many people encounter with Christianity is a soul-less form. Why can someone not advocate building up the religious heart and soul without everyone treating this as an attack on the form? No, this is pointing out that the heart and soul need to define the body, not the form. It depends who is doing the defining and why? Considering previous posts by you as well as this one, if I just focus on a real, true, searching for Christ, this is a beautiful thought as well as need to have. However it should stop there. In promoting a way to act - and I have to agree with most of the sentiments I read - the person cornered himself. Perhaps there is a little irony here; a man with his "program" attacking other "'men's programs." Why does this mystic, have to name people, who have found an unquenchable treasure in Christ, as being "peculiar?" Are they a rebellious people? Now as I said, in another post to you, if you feel something is getting in the way of Christ, by all means leave it and keep searching. I would love some of my friends who have been caught up by "prosperity teachers" to see through them and then leave them. Now, maybe you're thinking that I am on the same page as this mystic. Not at all because I don't think any man can easily characterize people that have the Thirst. It could be a little old lady that teaches Sunday school and suffers a pastor or a priest that is a boring speaker and can't make sense of drug addicts. In the final analysis, I understand what you're saying and I hope you don't see my writing as an attack. I just don't feel the mystic has this quality: "[Love] does not insist on its own way..." 1 Cor. 13:5 And, when we want to find a way we have to seek Christ. Oak

So really, what we are discussing to remain on topic is your view that the love of this world is the reason why people of your generation has left the church. I am sure there is truth to that in many cases. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world; the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever. 1 John 2:15-17 That means that the cares of this life are the main reason why you believe people have stopped going to church. People are consumed with their jobs, recreation like fishing trips, watching football games rather than going to church, etc. There is no question that happens, but people have always been consumed with worldly things. It would seem to me there must be more going on than just love of the world? Why have people abandoned organized religion? In the past, people would ignore God 6 days of the week, but still give him that one hour on Sunday. Could it be a lack of faith, where people no longer feel the need to give up that one hour of their time? It is something to consider. The part about being consumed by work or having fun, like going fishing happen and they are good, unless you put them above Christ. In regards to faith, I suffered because I was deceived specifically by giving something more attention then Christ.

*rvsd. proof read.

Originally this post was my negative feelings about Shiloh. I should have addressed him personally and I apologize to him. He does have a way of hitting the nerve center. Oak. Rvsd: 12/2/13 Either way this post was pulled out of the line up.

If your coming from the angle of suffering you are correct: "For whom and by whom all existing things exist, in bringing many sons to glory should make the founder of their salvation perfect through SUFFERING." . Heb 2:10. And, I forgot to add, we are told that we will suffer as well This sentiment "taken home," opens up the topic of are you living for Christ? In terms of "Take me home," have I learned what I could have learned, have I sought what I had to seek?, However if you are expressing a depressive feeling , I feel that is not from Christ. You - whatever your situation - abused, misunderstood, put down, should know that you have to humble yourself since we have a King that is meek and understanding. Yes, we have to meet our hour according to God. There is no instant action that will give us relief. Christ will take you when it's your rightful time. I hope I made sense to you. Oak Edited: Nov 23rd, I'm becoming careless with age.

I feel very hurt that this is what you gathered from what I said. Perhaps I first need to clarify something. Between trying to explain my situation and battling debates of individual points, it seems there's been mix-up of issues. Why I stopped going to two particular churches I had been attending and why I am having difficulty finding a new church to join is a different "box" from analyzing problems going on in the church. While I have been expressing both at the same time - because we females tend to intertwine things like that - I am not failing to attend church because I'm looking for the "perfect" church. Why do you not go to church Butero? But maybe I have to accept that certain people have prejudgments, and no matter what I say or try to explain, those pre-judgments will always take precedence? You truly believe my motivation is to destroy? You read my words as if I am tearing the church down in order to justify my actions? Really? Is it so hard for you to believe that a person encountered the problems before they took the action - that I struggled with the issues first? Really Butero, I am feeling so hurt I am dumbfounded. What is so wrong with longing to belong to a body of believers that actually treats each other like a family, where the members truly care for each others needs and truly help each other, where members of the congregation are considered fellow ministers rather than "the laity" as separate from "the clergy", where the church is not the pastors "kingdom" but the pastor considers himself a servant-leader? Dear Nebula, Your conversation with Shiloh are the main point in this post: I like Butero as well but the thread has become largely a point, counterpoint between you and Shiloh. Let me address your issue simply. I feel Shiloh, is knowledgeably gifted. However no one - given the limitations of the internet, can read you the way you want to be read. If I was part of your Church, let us say in another state, I would have to go to you; to see, feel, and discern what your saying for myself. This is impossible in this type of forum. And till anyone does actually come to see your reality, the issue is more of opinion than fact.

Yes, it does and directly so. The pastor can't be there for everyone. He is one person. The pastor's job is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry and that includes being there to counsel and and disciple. The Body of Christ is supposed to be doing that. The Body of Christ should be sharing in the work of the ministry not demanding that the pastor be on the hook for them, 24/7. So why don't you jump on Oak's case for giving bad advice, since he is asking for the impossible? Because I am feeling angry and I can't strangle you. Dear Nebula and Shiloh: Forgive me if I don't right away include the arguments about the Early Church and elders etc. which I treat as being important as well. But I was prompted to write at this stage of your posts. I would just like to say that diagreaments are bountiful in the Epistles. Consider Paul who tortured and killed Christian goes over to Peter to correct him. This is mind-bending. "But when Cephas [Peter] came to Antioch, I [Paul] opposed him to his face because he stood condemned." Gal. 2:11. You guys certainly know this confrontation was about Gentiles basically becoming Jews first and then becoming Christians. So lets not be surprised about our discourses not flowing evenly together. But most importantly how was this resolved? "We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by faith in works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we have believed in Jesus Christ...." Gal 2:15-16 Just an aside it does not say works because if you follow Christ, The Truth, your works should follow. Works of the law is different because like the 10 Commandments they are not suggestions. I think a distinction should be made. And if you follow laws you will surely fail because your simply not putting faith in Christ as the end all of your / our existence. How do I apply this to the conversation at hand. To Nebula's questions about pastors or priests help (something that I have been thru), always do one thing first: Pray to Christ for guidance before you take on meaningful tasks; pray for the Pastor your seeking help from in Christ's name. You will tell him things that you might of not expected or just let him be. When I wanted to write to you, Nebula, I prayed first. This is something that I noted from the life of St. Seraphim who for Orthodox Christians was a great Saint - I don't discount that every Christian is a saint, my belief tends to think certain people have achieved a "Noble Peace Prize," from Christ...I don't want a saints argument. St, Seraphim who counseled many Christians, took note that when he prayed to Christ for help it was very different than figuring things out for himself. Shiloh, in all honesty, I sometimes forget to pray for you before answering, I'm sorry. Oak PS In terms of my generation who were exposed to the Church persecuted, told me point blank that they did not feel comfortable in Church. I should have told them well if you were in a dance club during Saturday night, for instance, how are you presenting yourself to God and how much energy do you have for Him. Also, please no arguments on Saturdays and Sundays. I just re-affirmed my approach and I never said other explanations are important as well..

RedMomma: Thank you for your post and I agree with you completely. It's difficult coming in the middle of the post but I did offer a particular perspective on this. That is, if you like TV, Radio, Music, Theatre, Gambling (things of the world), you may be in danger of feeling uncomfortable with Church without understanding why? I sweated and was nervous during Church services. I pleadingly asked God why and the answer was something like this: If you embrace the world and feel connected to your passion, you will have problems relating to Christ, overall. This was not originally Church is failing, and here are the reasons. In my opinion to see yourself is the hardest thing to do while we know all the "defects of others." Also you change others by changing yourself. I also want to thank GoldenEagle and OtherOne for recognizing "The Scewtape Letters. Overall thank you all for making my post have some meaning. Oak Ps Fez, thank you for boosting me up - it's a nice thing to do.

Sorry about that. Nebula - your and Shiloh's posts made this post more impactful. I appreciate more than you know your input though it was a bit different from my original intention yet it was fruitful. Being thick headed (me), let me just list some things that you may do on the human level as well as putting the armor of God on yourself ( male advice): 1) Evil thrives on disorganization, so you should get yourself back to basics: 1) Get back to a semblance or structure or a routine (structure is the all important way to get control). 2) Get your prayer life in order, because if you lose out on this one and pray half-heartedly, turn to the Psalms are which the most damaging move in terms of confronting evil, since you're praising God. 3) An addition to that is if you can share your prayers with another person, it makes Christ presence realized and, you're twice as strong while you invite Him in to your hearts. 4) Practice reaching out to others, by helping them which deflects from your own self-centeredness. Seek pastors, priests that are willing to take the time out to take your spiritual needs seriously. 5) Finally, in the confusion that you feel your not alone (Kiwi Post). Fight to overcome the negative that was placed before you. Yes, Botz replying to me and my depression said, "Christ wants us to overcome." You may know all this but getting down to basics when your losing is the whole of my message. Oak PS Now is the time to understand that we are living in an age of information and deception and you will naturally be in confused at times - start going away from your pain as being all important, and for starters put it in the proper perspective with Christ on your side.

Oak: Butero thanks for replying but I have erased my OSAS post; both you and Shiloh on that point are correct. I'll make a new post of it later on.