eph215

You have stated your fallible interpretation. Your interpretation directly contradicts the gospel message, though. Your view requires that you reject or ignore most of the new testament passages on salvation. I accept all of the new testament as true, including the verses below which you must reject: Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Romans 2 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Gal 6 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. James 2 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. 1 Peter 1 17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. Rev 20 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. etc. These verses are all well and good but require some clarification otherwise we're all looking them in a different context: Matt 7:21 - what is will the Father in heaven? How do we know we've done it? Romans 2 - what good do we have to do? How much? How often? Gal 6 - in light of Romans 7 how are any of us 'wretched men (or women)' to satisfy this? How much sowing to either side is enough? Notice a theme here? Now I have live in the constant fear of wondering if I've done enough to 'earn' my salvation. What if I spend the rest of my life sowing to please the Spirit (fat chance of that - back to Romans 7 again) and then sow to the flesh (an unforgiving thought, a lustful look etc) am I damned? James 2 - faith without deed is indeed dead but is James challenging is to walk what we talk, put some skin in the game etc. or is he challenging where we will spend eternity? I would say the former not the latter. 1 Peter 1 - again, is this referring specifically to salvation? In context (reading the whole chapter, not just verse 17) I see this as a call to holiness, like James above a challenge to really walk in faith and show it to everyone, not as a warning to beware lest you lose your salvation. Rev 20 - there are books and there are books. Rev 20:15 says: Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So the other books must be for those not saved, not in the book of life. They will be judged by what they have done, not the saved. Matt 16:27 - again this doesn't specifically address salvation but, like Rev 20, to the idea that judgement awaits those not saved. Verse 26 addresses salvation and then 27 describes what awaits those not saved. John 15:10 - what does it mean to 'remain in his love'? Paul says nothing can separate us from God's love. The context is referring to joy. If we do these things then 'our joy will be complete'. I don't see this as addressing salvation. 1 John 2:3 - again, what does this have to do specifically with salvation? 1 John 2:6 - Back to Romans 7; how do we know when we've done enough? How literally do we take this? What does it mean to walk as Jesus did and how do I know I'm doing it?

It helps me to remember that the Law exists only to reveal our need for a savior. All the law can do is expose our utter inability to satisfy what the law requires (see Romans 7). However, Christ came to do what we could never do, namely satisfy every righteous requirement of the Law. If he could not do this then he had no qualification to be our savior - take our sin upon himself and make the atonement for it that we could not. In this way he fulfilled the Law certainly, and also the Prophets. Remember, the mandate of a prophet is to point us back to God and Christ spent the entirety of His ministry pointing the way back to God. Elsewhere Christ summed up the law in two concise statements - Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul & strength and love your neighbor as yourself. If you think about it , these encompass the ten commandments and the rest of the Law too. And Christ never commanded anything that could not be summed up in those two statements. One who does this, loves God and loves others and teaches others to do the same will be called great. One who tries to lessen these and teaches others to do likewise will be least. After all God has put forth the Law, who am I to try to lessen it? Am I presumptuous enough to claim I know enough to edit God's Law? No, a far better place for me is to 'trust and obey' and teach others to do the same. Matthew 6 is full of references to reward which fit in well with your question. Those who favor hypocrisy and external show will have received their reward in full. Those who seek to honor God (give in secret, pray in secret, fast in secret etc)will be rewarded by the Father in heaven. Ephesians 6:7-8 "Serve wholeheartedly as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave of free." Revelation 11:18 "...The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small..." I'd say that Yes there will be rewards (regard if you will) in heaven apart from eternal life with God (though I can't imagine why anything else would matter).

I think the concept of greater good applies here. If your action averts a greater evil then it is sanctified; if your action is equal to or greater than the evil you might avert then it would not be sanctified. So Bonhoeffer trying to kill Hitler would be sanctified or even my shooting a robber in my home, especially if it saves another's life but shooting someone who merely looks suspicious would not be sanctified. A bit simplistic maybe but I think the basic idea is sound.

My wife and I watch him in small doses. I get a little tired of tomorrow's show always being the ONE YOU CANNOT MISS! After about a week you realize he's rehashing a lot. And I get the whole Van Jones/Cass Sunstein/Spooky Dude et al. are personifications of Satan and pesky socialists with a sinister plan thing - could we progress to something different? Like what do we do about it? I spend more time on his website now and only watch what our friend the Beck fanatic recommends so we won't be paying.

32.57 Mbps down 7.03 Mbps up 97ms ping I am at work though, so that's probably cheating

That is not accurate. Perry was talking to reporters and what he actually said was that Texans might get so fed up how the country is being run, they would want to secede from the union. He was not calling for TX to secede. He also said that he saw no reason for TX to do that. This is true; Perry expressed support for secession in the event things ever got to the point of no return......not for leaving the Union now. I stand corrected on Perry. My general point stands. Well your general point is that there are other "Christian" politicians calling for their states to leave the US if Obama stays in power. Who are these "Christian" politicians and to what extent are they "Christians?" What kind of politicians are they? Alvin Green of S. Carolina was a "politician." Of course I can not know the EXTENT of another's Christianity. But I know that here in Tennessee such politicians exist. And yes, they are Christians at election time anyway. Here is one example from our last election.... http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/23/tennessee-republican-floats-secession/?fbid=PLVyZfAjm4w Rep. Zach Wamp, one of three candidates seeking the GOP gubernatorial nomination in Tennessee, told Hotline OnCall that Perry had the right idea. Wamp argued that mandates forced on the states by the Obama administration's health care bill have put secession on the table. "I hope that the American people will go to the ballot box in 2010 and 2012 so that states are not forced to consider separation from this government," Wamp told Hotline OnCall Friday. I have found that the less of a platform a given candidate has then the more likely you are to hear things like that. I also think that people have woken up to 'Christians' as a demographic group and now we have a lot of pandering to 'Christian' this and 'Christian' that in an effort to drum up support for whatever they have to offer. I saw a 'Christian' CD the other day that did not mention Jesus or God once in any of the songs (but one has lyrics like 'you got bang like a firework, you look good in my T-shirts'). Guess they couldn't make it in secular music and decided to give the gospel circuit a try. What is sad is that parents will let their kids buy this drivel because it was in a Christian store. And from what I have read of Zach Wamp the only person disappointed by his loss was him.

The word Gehenna may be based on the Hebrew ge' Hinnom (valley of Hinnom) which was the place outside of the walls of Jerusalem where the garbage was taken to be burned. It used to be a place where people went to sacrifice their children to Molech (by burning them) until Josiah put a stop to it. 2 Kings 23:10 'He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek.' I think Jesus used it because it was instantly identifiable both by it's contemporary use (as a dump) and because of it's past use (sacrificial worship of demonic spirits).

The what about Matthew 18:14? - God is not willing that ANY should perish (my paraphrase). If it's all predestined then He seems rather willing that some should perish. And that makes Matthew 28:19 meaningless - why bother making disciples of all men if all been decided beforehand. So I think everyone is called but not everyone listens. The Psalms make references to 'the shadow of God's wings', it's where we find protection and shelter but the unspoken implication is that we can stray from that shelter and if we do then we're on our own. In the same way, if I don't listen to the call then I can't very well claim the promise attached to that call.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Timothy 2:14 Chalk one up for the guys. Oops! Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12 See But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36 Pow! You nailed that one Joe. I don't think there's much more to say.