Yahsway

Marilyn777, Thats a great post! My husband calls him Benny Hindu. I saw him on tbn several months back, He was talking with Paul Crouch and told Mr. Crouch that Jesus was going to start to appear on stage with him at his healing crusades. Mr. Crouch seemed stunned and asked Mr. Hinn if Jesus was going to show up in bodily form. Well of course Mr. Hinn goes on to say and he said that Jesus was also going to start to appear at other ministers conferences and so on..... And the first thing that l thought of was the verse in the scriptures that Jesus told His diciples that if they say I am in the desert, dont go there, or If I am in the upper chamber, dont look there.... Could he just be saying these things to draw even bigger crowds, or could he be a part of the deception that is coming on the earth? Maybe he is being used by Satan and people are so desperate to get healed that they flock to him. I know scripture says that the delusion will be so great that if it were even possiable the elect would be decieved. I can see it happening as satan will want as many followers as he can get, and he will want to pull as many away from the true faith of God so as to put their faith and trust in him(or anyone he uses to carry out his plan) Yes, I agree he is a scary fellow. My husband too tells me to turn off tbn, and other faith based programs such as Mr. Hinns. But I told my husband that there needs to be watchmen, evaluating and comparing these prophets and healers to the word of God to see if it lines up. We need to sound the alarm and be aware of the enemies tactics . What good is discernment if we dont stand up for the Truth and warn fellow believers? We should love one another enough to speak the truth, and yes, sometimes the truth hurts, but it does become necessary. God says His people perish for lack of Knowledge. I encourage everyone here to really listen to what the many ministers (especially on tv) are saying. Compare it to scripture, pray for discernment, the holy spirit will guide us into all truth if we sincerly ask it of Him.This is not judgement, thats Gods business, this is Spiritual warfare, and thats our business. And that business about "Touch not His anointed" has been used to keep Gods people silent and it is nothing more than spiritual abuse. That verse I can only find one time in scripture, where David was referring to King Saul, telling his men to not kill him. It meant not to lay their hands on him to kill him, it had nothing to do with rebuking, asking questions, and so on. Well, as usual i said to much but I just wanted to tell Marilyn777, Koodozz to ya for sounding the alarm! Be Blessed

I too second that Amen!!!!

Yeshua meant that He would be in us LIKE the food we eat, not BE the food we eat.The new covenant is recieving the Spirit of God , where He writes His commandments on our hearts, and we walk in those commandments obediently. Our mind of the "flesh" no longer controls us. He does. We dont recieve Him by eating bread. The bread we eat at passover is to remember His death by, at that time of year. I am the temple of the living God. I do not need to go to an alter and practice a "bloodless" sacrafice (sacrament, ceremony) of the mass, remember, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. He gave His life ONCE and for ALL (all who would accept Him as Savior).Jesus Christ dwells in me. I am a temple, not made by human hands. If He does not live in me, then I am not His. Jesus said as Often as you do this, do this in remembrance of Me. He did Not say DO IT OFTEN. For i believe if we did do it often, it would just become a "ritual" kind of on the same order as "vain repatiton of prayers". I do not celebrate "EASTER" as it is pagan and was celebrated hundreds of years before Yeshua came to earth. In fact, it was being celebrated by the pagans the same year Yeshua and the diciples were having their last passover meal togethere. The "mystery of Iniquity" was truly already at work when Yeshua ascended. And is still in effect today.

Great post and info! I especially like the info on the Rock and the Keys!

Im sorry serotta, I was being sarcastic, I apologize, but there is a method to my madness. Let me give you a brief history of myself, then maybe you can see where Im coming from. Then maybe not, but here goes: I was very active in my local congregation the assembly of God. 10 years worship leader, 1 year youth director, 10 years drama and dance teacher, and so on and so forth. Paid my tithes, do not regret that one bit, but I do resent the fact that there were around 100 in congregation, all of us I know paying tremendous tithes (Husband collected on Sunday Morning) and never having but 3 meetings the whole time I was there on where the money went. okay, the last of the 3 meetings we had on $30.oo went into missions that year. Now mind you, the only 3 meetings we had were for the year prior to the meetings so I have no idea if and what money was given to missions. Now, when I say we tithed, WE TITHED. our last year there, my husband and I gave over $15,000.00. So Im looking over the light bill, the water bill, nothing owed on the building, the phone bill and general building things. Well, we always had bake sales or funraisers or more money out of our pocket for the youth programs. So a mere $30.00 goes to missions. Hmmmm. I start thinking, something is wrong here. Then finally, pastor gets 40 days of purpose, we read, fast, pray, Then we are all hit up for more money this time for pin-ball machines, some pool tables, ect.. The youth pastor said we would bring more youth in with these "implements of worldly worship" Sorry, anyway, in the meantime, Several of the people in the congregation asked me about our piano and drum players. Senn them in the bars on Sat. night at the local due drop in. So, I, being under submission to my Pastor bring this up to his attention. To make a long story short, I am not there anymore but they still are. It seems once you start asking questions you turn out to be the bad guy. I am one who truly advocates missions. The churches in America could do with a lot less and give to overseas missions, and the pastors could also do with a lot less. There is something wrong when a pastor lives more lavishly than his congregation. and this is happening in a lot of different churches. One thing I will commend Rick Warren for id that I do not think He lives in a 5 million dollar mansion as some of the other big-name clergy do. And he doesnt have the need to dress in the finest of clothes. But I am concerned about the fact that he seems to line up with so many others of today who do not preach repentance, and to be seperate from worldly things, and this Im okay, your okay, and everybody is okay mentality. This is not true. Not everyone is okay. We live in a very sick society that needs to hear the message that hey, you are a sinner, seperated from God. repent, turn around and walk this way. Its all happy, clappy, feel good message, Now there is time for these things, but lets seek out the lost. How will we know they are lost? By their fruits, connected to this world and everything it has to offer. Do you think maybe the reason pastors are compromising their messages today, mixing worldly things with Godly things is that they believe this will attract more of the people in the world to come into the sanctuary because they feel "less threatened" and they wont have to fall under any conviction if we dont tell them about sin and needing a savior and needing to live holy, but just offer them what they want . And maybe by doing this, they will open their wallets, and more money will come in to fund the gospel and missions overseas. Thats fine and everything, but in the meantime, what happens to the ones living here in this nation. This to, our Beautiful America is also a mission field. I am not attacking just Saddelback church. Please look around at a lot of the other churches. Weve become so enamored with the prosperity message that it hardly leaves room for anything else. I believe Robert Schullar is Warrens Mentor along with C.Peter Wagner. Does this tell you anything? We here every year "GOds doing a new thing" or Theres a paradiam shift in the body of Christ", Name it and Claim it, Get your Blessings. ect... When are we going to Bless God? When are we going to minister unto God? When are we going to give up our man-pleasing missions for the sake of a God-pleasing mission? And why does it cost so much to go and here Warren speak? Why dont they just take up a love offering? I was raised a good ole Southern Baptist. Baptized by fire by the holy spirit in the assemblies of God. But i just like to refer to myself as a believer in Him and Him only . The seeker-sensitive assemblies of today are just doing what they did many years ago. There is nothing new under the sun. No, the size of an assembly does not matter. The quality of that assembly matters.Yes missions do matter and we are here in this great nation for that purpose I believe. Our purpose should be to lay down our lives if need be for each other, killing our flesh daily, renewing our mind to have the mind of Christ not the mind of the world. Giving up all if need be for the gospels sake.

One of the pillars created by the vatican on which they base their eligious authority is called "Apostolic Succession. They claim that Peter was the first pope.Everything hinges on Peter. The Roman catholic system bases everything on St. Peter being in Rome and being the first pope. Peter is their foundation.. Jesus said to Peter in Matt. 16:18-19 "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail againsy it." The papacy and priesthood and the whole catholic system hinges on their interpetation of this verse. Jesus had asked Peter who He(Jesus) was, and Peter replied: Thou art the Christ the son of the living God. Then Jesus said to Peter, "And I say unto thee, thou art Peter, (Petros, meaning little peeble or moveable stone) and upon this rock(Petra, huge boulder or bedrock) I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. In essence Jesus was saying Peter you are a stone,...But it is on this bedrock foundation (meaning Himself) that I will build my church. Jesus couldnt have called Peter the rock, because that would contradict His word which says 1. Cor.3:11- "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. and also Psalms 18:31- "For who is God save the Lord?or who is a rock save our God?" The true church was founded upon Jesus Christ, the rock. not Peter, the pebble. Where in the bible does Jesus call Peter a Pope? He doesnt. The catholic theologians cooked it up to give themselves clout. But it also gives them a problem. Christianity started in Jerusalem, NOT Rome. Paul was an apostle to the gentiles. It was Paul who wrote the epistles to the Christians in Rome. Why would Paul need to write to them to instruct them if Peter was there? In the book of Romans, Paul salutes over 25 different members of the church at Rome but never mentions Peter. Peter wasnt there. Peter was in Jerusalem. He was the apostle to the JEWS. Gal. 2:7 When the apostles and elders met in Jerusalem to decide how to handle the question of circumcision, James was in charge. Peter spoke yes, but James handed down the decision. Paul spoke of James as a pillar Gal.2:9-14., but he rebuked Peter to the face because he was in error. Peter wasnt infallible and wasnt a pope. Peter wasnt a pope. He even had a wife. Mark1:30. Under Pope Hadrian 1, Constantine made the popes heir to the entire Roman Empire. The popes declared that they were the successors of St. Peter and that they held the keys to life and death. The kings and emperors looked to Rome as the Spritual leader, and they were decieved into believing that the pope was head of the kingdom of God ON THIS PLANET. But some centuries later some of the kings and nobelmen were not recognizing that authority and refused to pay tribute. Even some priests (such as Martin Luthur) had begun to read the scriptures for themselves in open defiance of "Church Law". And all over Europe, brave men of God were standing up and proclaiming that the pope was anti-christ. Men such as Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, John Knox, John Calvin, Roger Williams, and Cotton Mather who said in the Prophetic Faith of our Fathers Vol.3, p.113 quote: "The oracles of God foretold the rising of an anti-christ, and in the Pope of Rome, all characteristics of that anti-christ are so marvellously answered that if any who read scripture do not see it, there is a marvellous blindness upon them" During the Reformation, the Protestant christians called the papacy the dynasty of the antichrist, ruling from the vatican. After the fiasco of Pius X11 (world war 11), the vatican needed a face lift. Preparations for the vatican 11 council were set in motion. Protestantism became unpopular. It was a no-no to talk about the vatican or its bloody history. The pope has become the most respected man on earth. Today he is called the man of Peace. No other individual on earth gets more world-wide publicity than this man. It reminds of that verse in Daniel 8:25 "And he shall magnify himself in his heart and by PEACE shall destroy many." I know Pope John Paul is very ill, and may not live until the end of the year. I do not know his heart, at all appearances he seems to be a very pious man. I pray he truly knows the ONE TRUE Life and Way to eternal life. Jesus Christ. But I think we should all keep our spiritual eyes opened for whoever is appointed to be the next Pope. I love all who for whatever reason want to line up with the teachings of the catholic church. I know as a protestant they call me an erring brother. Be that as it may, I love all the ones who have aligned themselves with the universal church. But I do not agree with its teachings. I am a Protestant!

Thanks for the info dove2. im not very computer literate. But i see now what you said about the quote. That will help me out also. Tanks again! blessings to ya

i love it SuperJew! You are singing that new Song unto the Lord. Be Blessed!!!

Adam was created without sin. True. Eve was created without sin. True. Gen 3:5 Lie from satan. Her eyes would be opened and she would be like God, knowing good and evil. So by DISOBEDIANCE of Eve, we inherit origional sin, eternal seperation, death from God. Eve was not created evil or sinful. She was made perfect. Her DISOBEDIANCE brought in origional sin to us all. The Adamic nature. Mary, the mother of our savior Yeshua(Jesus) was born under that same curse of sin. But it was not the angel of darkness, that ole serpent who spoke to her, but an angel of light from our Father who told her of the Fathers plan. The difference between her and Eve was Marys OBEDIANCE, "be it unto me according to thy word" So by OBEDIANCE of Mary, we inherit eternal life thru Yeshua or Messiah. Mary was not born sinless. She was made perfect by her OBEDIANCE to God, and thru the redeemtive work of Yeshua. If Mary was born of immaculate conception, just as Yeshua was, then we have no Trinity. We would have God the Father, God the Son(Yeshua) God the Holy Spirit, and God the daughter(Mary). The ark of the covenant symbolized Gods presence among His people in Old Testament times. When Yeshua came to earth, born of a virgin, HE was that symbol of the ark.Immanuel,-God with us or in our presence. If Mary was already sinless, being born of the Fathers seed, not like unto the rest of mankind, then shouldnt it have been Mary who died for the origional sins of mankind? She was numbered as one of the followers as you said, She was in that upper-room as you said, recieving the baptisim of the holy Ghost. But why would she need it if she was already without spot or blemish? Yeshua had it. Wouldnt she have had it also? Yeshua said it was expediant that He go to the Father so He could send the Holy Spirit back to mankind. Why didnt Mary just give it to them by the laying on of hands? Did the apostles and disciples pray thru Mary then or was this something that came many years later? I know prayer beads were used by pagans at that time, and are used today by budhists, muslims, wiccans and such. Why would Mary tell us to use pagan emplements of worship? And baptisim was always practiced in the old Testament. It is called Mikveh in the Hebrew . John came Baptizing in the wilderness, not the temple, to prepare mens hearts for the coming of Messiah. Nothing about Mary here. Grace and favor were also poured out by God to people in the Old Testament. Nothing new here either. Only it is by his grace thru our faith that we are saved thru His Son Yeshua. In the same way He poured grace out onto the Israelits to save them from Pharoah, thru their obediance and faith that if they put the blood over the doorposts the death angel would pass over them. Job found grace and favor also. Job 10:12 We all who are born of Him and His spirit find grace and favor. It is bestowed on all who are His OBEDIANT ones. Read Jerm. 16:19-21 "O LORD, MY STRENGTH AND MY FORTRESS, AND MY REFUGE IN THE DAY OF AFFLICTION, THE "GENTILES" SHALL COME UNTO THEE FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH,AND SHALL SAY, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, VANITY, AND THINGS WHERIN THERE IS NO PROFIT. SHALL A MAN MAKE GODS UNTO HIMSELF, AND THEY ARE NO GODS? THEREFORE, BEHOLD, I WILL THIS ONCE CAUSE THEM TO KNOW, I WILL CAUSE THEM TO KNOW MINE HAND AND MY MIGHT; AND THEY SHALL KNOW THAT MY NAME IS THE LORD."

Well Serotta, cant argue with that. I for one believe America has plenty of churches, but overseas would be great. I also believe more need to be in leadership positions, maybe this program would help some pastors who seem to be more afraid of losing their "positions" instead of doing what they should as disciple and mentor others to lead as well. As far as assisting the poor and sick, i also cant wait for this to happen. Ive always said that if these mega churches did that, we would have less people dependant on entitlement programs. Maybe then my tithe money would go for that instead of pool tables, pin-ball machines, elaborate music and lighting systems,ect.. Sounds like Warren wants to get back to the way the origional disciples and apostles way of doing things. Im all for that! Educate the next generation? Well, again, I do not like the public school system so you have no argument here. Most all my friends home-school their children, and i wish I had now. I always had to work outside the home, my kids were either in day care while i worked or in school. So, if this program of Rick Warrens will help more moms stay home and give their children good wholesome christian education, and also allow for the fathers of these children to better themselves and make more money, and to assist the single and widowed parents then yes im all for it. How long do you think it would take? And if this becomes globel, wow. can you think of those implications. No one in need, our daily bread taken care of, our finances taken care of, no more having to plant churches, the sick,and afflicated taken care of, Leaders in right standing, kind of reminds me of that old song by one of the beatles called "IMAGINE".The whole world living in peace. That sure sounds like a big job for anyone. But hey, I know when the Prince of Peace Yeshua comes we will have all that, I just didint know it was even possable before he came. will the psuedo-christ offer the same thing? And, if there is going to be a rapture, why even bother, seeing as the"church" will be gone , unless we are leaving it all to the ones left. Lets ask Rick warren, if he believes in the rapture and if so, if he would sign a legal agreement leaving this utopian empire to those left behind.And for that matter, how about lets see if all the "churches" will do that,they wont need it where they are going, and it would help all those here to face what lies ahead of them Just a thought. Oh well, Yeshua said beware when men cry PEACE and SAFETY, for then sudden destruction comes. I think ill heed His word and Purpose, not Mr. Warrens

Serotta, I found the website to the paper I refered to above, it is www.readfish.com. Now mind you I read that in July 2004, and they still have only May 2004 up on their site, but they still have articles there on his coming to Chattanooga. Also, if you go to www.letusreason.org/popteac26.htm, you will see where they direct you to Rick warrens site at www.saddleback.com/peaceplan. I went there and the page had been taken off. But at letusreason, they have taken ecerpts from his site and I think you will find it very interesting. I also meant that the pentegons chaplains have ordered 26,000 copies of his book. Anyway, go there and let me know your views. There is also a good article called The Pied Pipers of Purpose, Ill get that site for you. be blessed

Good one TSTH. If we truly want to know our future, it might be a good thing to look back to the past. It was given for our instruction, right? Serotta, I read this in a christina newspaper that is established in Chattanooga, Tn. As i am writing this to you i am searching for it in my house. Hope I didnt throw it away. I believe it is called "The Fish". It is a multi-denominational christian publication that comes out once a month there in Chattanooga, and has all the latest revivals, singings, and so forth published in it for that area. Rick Warren was to be a quest speaker there in the city bringing togethere people of faith and it is all published there in that magazine. I will search to see if they have a website. But i do not want you to take my word for it, I would like for you to read it for yourself. Maybe also on Rick Warrens site it may give his itenerary, I think that he was to be in Chattanooga this month. I will get it for you. be blessed

Please do not be decieved, The "Mary and "Jesus" of the "catholic church" have been declared in writing by the "Pope" to be the "New Eve" and the "New Adam". Adam and Eve were husband and wife, therefore the "church" has given its "Mary " and "Jesus" the same relationship. Because Christ was "God with us", the church says that Mary is the "Mother of God". The Mary of the bible was NOT the wife of God. She IS NOT her husbands mother.The satanic apostasy entitled "paganism" has always involved the veneration of the "mother and child"; the child being the reincarnation of his dead father. The God of the bible IS NOT DEAD and HE NEVER WAS! He was NEVER Marys husband. Many different gods were worshipped in the Roman empire up until the time of Constantins the great. Then the fact becomes more obscure as Rome was supposed to be a "Christian empire". And while claiming to be a christian, Constantine maintained the title "PONTIFUS MAXIMUS" the high priest of paganisim His coins were inscribed; "SOL INVICTO COMITI:(Committed to the Invincible Sun). The importance of this fact cannot be overstated as during his reign , pagan sun worship was mixed with worship of the creator and officially entitled "Christianity" so, what are wee practices of sun worship/sol invictus/=MITHRA Worship. Mithraic practice mixed with christianity. 1. Cybele the Phrygian goddess, known to her followers as the "mother of god", was closely related to the worship of Mithra. As Mithrasiam was a mans religion, the worship of Cybele was practiced by the women. The priests of Mithra were known as "Fathers" and the Priestesses of Cybele as "Mothers". The name of Cybele is just one of many other "sun-goddesses" of ancient time. There are also many artifacts dug up with sun-goddess worship depicted on them of a woman holding a child that resembles almost to a tee the mother and child pictures we see today thru out many churches. By continually changing the names of gods and goddesses of subsequent civilizations, the impression is given that their worship is only a local fabrication, having no real significance. This is not the case. The worship of false gods, representing the created, in oppostion to the worship of the creator has been a satanic master scheme since the kingdom of Babel. Known as BELTIS by the Chaldeans of Babel. Known as ISHTAR by the Assyrians. Known as Cybele by the Phrygians. Known as ISIS or HATHOR by the Egyptians. Known as ASTARTE by the Canaanites Known as ASHTAROTH of the Sidonians, whom the Israelite King Solomon went after Known as DIANNA by the Ephesians Known by Greco-Romans as APHRODITE, ARTEMIS, or JUNO and known by many other names in between THE MOTHER GODDESS REACHED ROME AS "IDIA MATER" OR "THE GREAT MOTHER" During the 4th century, Mithras "mysteriously vanished" and the Roman "Christianity" began. A christianity not like that of the first century; but a polluted, corrupt christianity lacking few Mithraic rituals. After the 4th century, christian and pagan practices became more alike. Read Jer. 44:17-19. It was being practiced by the Israelits. Mixing pagan worship with God. Its was seen at the foot of Mt. Siani. The golden calf. Notice what Aaron says in Exodus 32:5; AND WHEN AARON SAW IT, HE BUILT AN ALTAR BEFORE IT; AND AARON MADE PROCLOMATION, AND SAID, TOMORROW IS A FEAST TO THE LORD". hE WAS MIXING WORSHIP. hE WAS USING SOMETHING PAGAN AND WAS GOING TO OFFER THIS UP UNTO THE ONE TRUE GOD.hE WAS DECLARING A FEAST DAY TO ELOHIM, THRU.....THE GOLDEN CALF. hOW SAD, will we never learn that we shall no other gods before Him? "YE HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING, THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOROUTH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF ME. MATT. 15:7-9 Just because the catholic church "fathers" have said so about this and that doesnt make it right. Same goes for protestants. Research, study where we get our tradtions, were first disciples and apostles doing these things we do today? Who added what, where, ask questions, stay awake. The mystery of iniquity was already at work in Pauls day. Search out what that means. Strong delusion is coming upon the earth, we must wake up, or we too might be swept away with every wind of doctrine. Ther is only one way to the Father and that is thru Jesus(Yeshua) and no one else. Anyone trying to come any other way is a theif, and will not enter in. be blessed

Ill give it a shot Shadow2b, but mind you this is how I see it. A seeker-sensitive church is one who is man-pleasing, not God pleasing. Such as bringing in all the video games and such for the youth. These things are used to draw the seeker into the church, and a there is a lot of "politcal correctness" too, if you know what I mean. We have enough of those worldly things in the world. The Fathers house is suppose to be one of holiness(set-apartness). I do not find anything sinful or wrong in playing games, or taking youth to such functions as long as it is wholesome and good, but I dont think bringing those extra-carricular(spell)activities into the "church setting" is good either. I know they take surveys and polls of those who are not churched so to speak and evaluate them to see what they can do based on these surveys to bring the people back into church. But, the church is supposed to be the Ekklessia(meaning the called out ones). We are to be called out and be seperated(Holy) a peculair people if you will, so others can see that we are a changed people due to our nature that is in Christ, not of the world. And one more thing i might add, you know the saying "Follow the Money?". Mega churches are just that MEGA, nothing more. Its not the quantity that matters, it should be the quality of our witness and life. Remember the saying :wide is the gate to destruction, but narrow is the gate to life, and few there are that find it. The message has been the same for 2000 years, God doesnt need our help in bringing the world (worldly ways) into His house. He needs for us to be a living witness to those when we are outside those walls of corporate worship.It should be us and our lives, Christ shining thru us that will bring them into the kingdom. It is not about what we can offer the seekers based on what they want, it should be based on what God wants. He is still the One Trure Rock in which we will either fall on or be crushed beneath. anyway, the church I attended for 10 years got the books by Rick Warren. They also went out and bought pool-tables and video machines, when in my humble opinion we could have taken that money and really be a witness to others in our community and used it to help some family. Our priorities have really been turned around on this one. Yeshua does seek out the lost sheep, but on His terms not theirs. He is sensitive to the seeker, but he is not seeker- sensitive. He still is the Great I AM, and He changes not to fit our mold of Him. He is the Potter and we are the clay. be blessed

Could it also be that she could have been worshipping Tammuz the cross-god. Crosses were used many years before Yeshua was sacraficed on one. The roman soldiers of Yeshuas day worshiped Tammuz. We as believers adopted the cross as our icon so to speak, after Yeshuas death on it. But for hundreds of years before Messiah came it was an icon of pagan worship. Im very careful about woshipping the cross, I worship Yeshua! Our savior truly went thru a lot to save us, blessed be His name forever.

I have read and re-read both books. But I also read C. Peter Wagners "Churchquake" years ago and it is all about seeker-sensitive, mega-marketing, mega-churches. The pentegon has just ordered 26,000 copies of Purpose Driven Life. Rick Warren has said his last mission here on earth is to bring about "Globel Peace". Am I missing something here? Yeshua is the prince of Peace and is the only One who will bring this about. I think we are in the days of people running to and fro to different pastors and leaders who will tickle their ears. Yeshua is sensitive to those seeking Him, but we should not compromise our walk to water down the word for those who might be offended by the gospel. I too have seen in my own assembly the compromise of the word, eveything preached from pulpit is mixed with the new reality shows, the football games, verses taken out of context and the things of the world added with it the word of God. A half truth is still a lie. Does anyone preach repentance anymore? I believe in a Holy Spirit driven life. His purpose for my life, not my own purpose. I too found good things in these books but i found them lacking as they mixed Gods word with mans philosophy. I believe these books are on the leading edge of New age philosophy. If any of you get a chance to read "churchquake" then please do for I believe it was this book and thinking that has started us all down the slippery sloap that we are in. I believe the preaching of another Jesus has begun.

Yes and Amen! LET ALL THOSE WHO SEEK YOU REJOICE AND BE GLAD IN YOU; LET SUCH AS LOVE YOUR SALVATION SAY CONTINUALLY, "THE LORD BE MAGNIFIED!!"

Well Agnostic, I surely thought from your previous post that you were older than 16. Most 16 year olds I know do not even want to discuss such issues as we are discussing so my hats off to you! Maybe you could exlain what things you consider are more concrete to you. I am not real educated beyond a high school diploma but I do not consider myself ignorant because the word ignorant means to be untaught and uneducated. So i am not dumb,or stupid, but i am ignorant of what you are trying to convey. Are you opposed to the people in your community or just opposed to their beliefs? And you know what? You can also be 86 years old and be rebelious, just take my mother-in-law for instance. Ha! Well thats another story. anyways, What theories do you have? Or should i ask do you have any belief in some kind of higher power? I agree and disagree with you about education. A belief in anything you cannot see or touch takes faith, not education. But for example, if you told me the sky was , well lets say yellow, I might believe you because i put my faith and trust in you and that you knew it.But lets say eveyone tells me that its not yellow but blue, then Im confused. So who do I believe and what must I do to come to the truth about the color of the sky. I must go outside and look with my own eyes to see the truth. What i am saying is just because everyone says so doesnt always mean its true for you. You must look for yourself. But remember this, if you are arguing with the one who told you the sky is yellow and then arguing with the ones who say the sky is blue, then all your energy is being wasted on what everyone else says when you could use that energy yourself and go look and see. I do admire your convictions and i think you are very brave to come to a christian chat site and voice your convictions. And just because your 16 does not mean you do not have anything to offer us old geezers about your convictions. Just remember that I too am an old geezer just wanting to see where you stand on your beliefs. Thanks Agnostic for listening.

Agnostic, To which god are you referring too? You are right in that men over many thousands of years have looked for something or someone higher than themselves to give them answers to many questions they had. You are also right in that many gods were made up in mens own minds if you will, created also by mens own hands. I do not know much about the mormon religon and what it teaches but i do know that Joseph Smith is like the men i mentioned above as He added to the scriptures of the Torah and New Testament. Although its true you will read in the bible of men with selfish motives, pagan worship,man-made tradtions,ect.. It is recorded elsewhere in secular writings and in archeology of how Yahwey led the Israelits out of 450 years of bondage to the Egyptians. I personally do not see how any man-made god, be it wood or stone could have done that and m any other miracles written down in the bible. As far as weather you believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob, well, I guess that is your choice as I personally am not a puppet on a string to any man or man-made idol. But, I did hear Him call me, I chose to recieve Yeshua. It was never forced on me, oh sure, my parents took me to church, i listened to the teachings but i did not HEAR them. I rebelled, turned my back on everything i was taught(And not everything I was taught was true either, I had to search out scripture for myself). I went to just about every denomination known to man(which by the way is also man-made for The God I serve is not the God of denominations) and until I studied and sought out for myself to learn the truth of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, i just ran around seeking after what others told me about Him. Im sure you learned a lot of scripture in the Mormon denomination after 10 years of going, but are you sure you heard it correctly or could it be that there were some man made additions to it? Have you ever felt compelled to just seek God out on your own without the noise of others in your ears to stifle your hearing? Thats what I had to do, it took me several years to come into the understanding I have today and may I add one last thing, It is not my job to convict you or anyone else to belief in Yeshua, but all I would ask is that you reconsider letting His word (Yahwehs Word) convince you. And remember,we all have free will and choice here, there are those of us who do believe in Yeshua by choice, and believe it or not we do not seek to gain anything from anyone else by our belief. His death for me was and is my gain. I serve only Him! be blessed