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"The LORD will mediate between nations and will settle international disputes. They will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer fight against nation, nor train for war anymore" (Is. 2.4). There won't be international disputes in eternity future, only in the millennial kingdom. And in the millennial kingdom there will no longer being nations fighting. That's not happening now. "No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed" (Is. 65.20). Children die quickly through malnutrition or from being born into sin. Children will not die in eternity future. So this time spoken of if not now or eternity future, must be the future millennial kingdom. 10,000 children die of starvation every day or from other abuse. "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab. 2.14). This is certainly not the condition today. Most people I speak to reject the Lord. 1) How can Satan be the "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4.4), "prince of the air" (Eph. 2.2) and "ruler of this world" (John 12.31) if he is sealed in the pit for 1000 years (Rev. 20.3)? 2) How can Christians be reigning today "over the nations" with a "rod of iron" (Rev. 2.26,27) if we are being martyred daily? 3) How can there be two rulers, those who "overcometh" (Rev. 2.26) reigning "with Christ" (20.4), "with Him" (v.6), for 1000 years if Satan is "ruler of this world" now also? 4) If the nations are not deceived in the 1000 years where Satan can "deceive the nations no more, till the 1000 years is finished" (Rev. 20.3), how can the 1000 years be now since 10,000 children die every day due to starvation and we continue to hear of wars and rumors of wars? 5) What would prevent the gospel of salvation being distributed to the nations so they would be deceived again when Satan is let out for a short while at the end of the 1000 years? Surely everyone in all the nations can continue to hear the gospel to be saved even if Satan were let out of the pit otherwise that would give credence to Calvinism. 6) When a person dies they go to soul sleep; if saved, to the good side of Hades, Abraham's bosom, waiting to be resurrected at the "last trumpet" (1 Cor. 15.50-52; 1 Thess. 4.14-18). How can those who "overcometh" be reigning over the nations today if they are asleep? There is no party going on in Heaven right now of the resurrected saved. 1 Thess. 4 says, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God ('at the last trumpet' 1 Cor. 15.52): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (vv.14-18).

I don't hate you because of what you believe either, but I strongly disagree with that premise you made about the Church and asleep saints. Per 1 Thess.4:13-17, Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27, those Scriptures make a distinction about Christ gathering His Church both from Heaven (asleep saints), and from the earth ("which are alive and remain") within the same timing and joined to Him at His returning. So how can you infer that it's impossible for the Church to go through the great tribulation because of some idea that it would require the "asleep" saints to be raised to go through it? That kind of idea goes directly against those written Scriptures quoted above. How? The Asleep Saints That Have Died: 1Thes 4:13-14 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: 1Thes 4:16-17 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV) Even that very 1 Thess.4 Scripture completely debunks the idea some try to use it as one of the biggest proofs that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation. Paul made a clear distinction between the "asleep" saints that died and the saints "which are alive and remain" unto Christ's coming. Are alive and remain where? On earth! Do the Matt.24 & Mark 13 Scriptures agree with Apostle Paul on that? Yes! Most definitely! The Asleep Saints That Died: Matt 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)

I have had the snatching up of the saints on my mind a lot lately. I had a dream about it years ago. I had been praying and seeking God about the end times and my walk with him. I believe he gave me the dream to give me peace. Which it did. But I got to wondering about something. I'll share my dream if needed in a future post, but my question is this. Has anyone here had a dream or vision about the snatching up of the saints to meet Christ in the air? Would you be willing to share? I've heard people talk about being given dreams and visions on almost every subject, but not this one, why? Thanks for your posts, and may God bless you all

I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one. If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies. Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say: "The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation" or they will say: "The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation" Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation. So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive. Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis. I order things this way: Daniels 70th week begins The time of birthpains and some tribulation The appearance of the man of sin Great tribulation God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation) 70th week closes Jesus appears, coming in the clouds The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection) Living believers follow just after The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies They return with Christ to the Earth Battle of Armegeddon Jesus wins The Millenium begins The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding. I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing. What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse. I will start of with an example. My assertion: The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation My texts: 1 Thess 4:15-17 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Rev 20:4-6 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.) My Conclusion: Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints. Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5) Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation. Reason for undertanding these verses in this way: A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here. I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions. Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation. I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so". So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture. Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence. Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts. I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat. I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.