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The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized. So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about: Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either: a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture. Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ. To those who want to reply in this thread: Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation. I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion. Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture. Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead. To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example: Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence. Thanks in advance

Hi all. A new video about escaping the Great Tribulation. The video length is a little under 5 minutes and takes a post-tribulation position. As usual, I'm keen to hear what others think.

Peter on the Last Days - Part Two ( part 1 is here ) I do not know how many parts there will bet, but this is the second installment, and deals with a little something we can glean from Act 3. Many will think I go too far - maybe I do. However, this is what I think I see there, related to end times sequences. In Acts Chapter 3, Peter is again addressing a group of people and lets us know something of what has been revealed to him about the last days. Now, the context is not a lecture on eschatology, it is a presentation of the Gospel near the temple in Jerusalem. Peter and John were there and encountered a man, crippled, who was begging. Peter said he did not have any money, but what he did have, he would give to the man. Then he said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Walk!" (Act 3:6) The man was healed and walked with Peter and John, into the temple courts. The man seemed to be a bit excited (and why not) by his ability to walk for the first time in his life. The people round about, recognized the man as the guy who used to sit around begging for money and they were amazed. Peter seized this opportunity, to launch into a presentation of the Gospel, (Acts 3:12-25), part of which I will reproduce for you here: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or Godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through Him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. 17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that He may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive Him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from their people.’ The reason I have only given you part of that sermon here, is that I am focusing in this series, on what Peter tells us, about the end times. So, in keeping with that, I want to point out verse 21 to you: “Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. “ Now, to restate that into plainer language, we could paraphase that sentence in this way: He (Jesus) must remain in Heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, just as He (God) has promised long ago through the prophets (in the scriptures) Now certainly, Peter is not here, giving us a discourse on eschatology, but he has revealed a little detail, that could clear up a misconception that some might have about the future actions of Jesus, things Jesus will be doing in our future. Peter has let us know here, that Jesus must remain in Heaven until certain things have happened, things which have been revealed, prophesied to happen, which are in our Old Testament. I am not certain what things Peter had in mind (possibly Isa 2:1-4, Isa 35, and Zech 14:1&14:8-11) when he said "the time to restore everything", but I think we can reasonably conclude certain things about this concept. For example: · The fact that Jesus must remain in Heaven until . . . the until lets us know that there will be a time where Jesus is no longer going to be restricted to Heaven, and He may return. · Clearly, this had not yet happened at the time Peter gave this sermon, and would be yet future · We know that Jesus has not returned as of this study, so it is still a future event · We know (from Matt 24 and other passages, that there is coming a time of great tribulation, and since the tribulation is the world at it's worst, that the tribulation does not qualify as a 'restoration of all things' · Since Jesus will not return until the time of restoration, and since we also know that Jesus WILL return, immediately after the great tribulation (Matt 24:29-31), it is a reasonable assumption, is that Jesus will not return before or during the tribulation · Since Jesus can not return UNTIL it is time to restore all things, and He will return after the tribulation, therefore, His return after the tribulation has to be the time to restore all things, there is no alternative that harmonizes with what we know from these verses which we have just examined. Psalm 110 says: 1The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” 2The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!” 3Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning’s womb. Now, in this context of Jesus not returning until some event, notice that Jesus (apparently) is told by God the Father (in Heaven) to remain (there in Heaven, at God's right hand). The Bible is nothing, if not consistent. It is always agreeing with itself. If you have an understanding of a text, which does not harmonize with other Bible texts, then you have a wrong understanding, assuming that the Bible is accurate. While the ideas that I am pulling from these texts, may not be a correct understanding, they are not incompatible with each other, or other points of scripture, so they may well be correct. If my understanding is correct on these texts we are examining, then it appears again, that if Peter had the notion that Jesus would return (and he did), then Peter seems to understand that His return, will be after the great tribulation. Not only does he imply that Jesus will return after the tribulation, he states that Jesus will not return before it, making a pre-trib rapture impossible.

Well, since I made a list once about some things the Bible does not say about the End Times, maybe I should list some thing that it does say. Now, I am expecting, that no one will argue that these things are not in the Bible, but I do not reasonably expect that there will not be people, who will want to comment on how these things do not mean what they appear to mean. I expect some comments from the Bible + crowd. The numbers are there to make it easier to reference things said, for any who find quoting difficult to do. So, in no particular order, and some possible redundancy: 1. There will be a time of trouble whcih Jesus called birth pangs √ 2. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation. √ 3. There will be a specific sign to warn of it's nearness. √ 4. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited it length to preserve life. √ 5. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky. √ 6. He then will send angels to gather His elect. √ 7. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return √ 8. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers √ 9. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. √ 10. There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. √ 11. The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise first, then the living Christians join them in the air. √ 12. Believers are to look for a man of lawlessness to be revealed, and by that will know that the 2nd coming of Jesus, has become imminent. √ 13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. √ 14. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection √ Taken from http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html

“A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world”—John 16:21 Some years back, as I was faced with a very strong trial that pressed me to the wall, with no help in view from anywhere- humanly speaking- God gave me a very great revelation from the above scripture. The revelation sprang out of the above scripture, as I reluctantly opened my Bible and studied (in my moment of melancholy). And since I caught this very revelation, I have always seen God confirm it to me, in every tough situation I find myself. From the above scripture, the Lord opened my eyes of faith to understand, that each time I have exercised my faith concerning a particular situation or challenge, with nothing showing up, till the point where believing becomes almost or totally impossible… To the point where even doubt and dismay and hopelessness begins to set in- just like a laboring woman in travail- the hour of glory and miracle has come. That is, in such a time: you have prayed; you’ve fasted; you’ve sown your seeds; in short, you’ve done all you know to do scripturally, with nothing to show… To the extent you’re pressed to the wall. And you feel like, you’re better-off dead than alive, because of the straitness of your challenges. Just have it at the back of your mind that your moment of miracle, is very close to the door. Since I caught this very revelation and have always been watching out for the hand of God, when I’m pressed to the wall, I have always seen God move in my direction in the most astonishing and aghasting ways. Let me just share a recent testimony to buttress what I’m saying: Early last year, while I was in my former relationship, for which we had a great prospect for marriage, the Lord spoke to me audibly (with a small still voice), just before I awoke from my sleep. He said; “Emeke, your marriage is next year. Choose a date for next year”. Immediately after that, I awoke from my sleep, with a conviction of the Holy Spirit in my heart. Then I began to think how I was going to explain it to my ex-fiancé then. But all the same, I had to tell her, knowing very well the implication of disobeying the voice of God. As I told her, we agreed on a date for this year. But eventually, as providence will have it, as we continued along the line, we had a disagreement along doctrinal lines, and eventually deemed it fit to discontinue the relationship. We finally did, and were happier apart. Then eventually, by the end of last year, she took ill, and after much treatments, she died (quite a pity). Then as for me, because of the word of the Lord I received, I had been trying all I could with prayers to get the right person to marry. But all my efforts and relationships since then, had proved abortive. Even the ones that proved ideal, the Holy Spirit would step in, and lead me out of them for good. Because they were not the perfect will of God for me. I continued relentlessly, until I got fagged out last month, and just concluded that, may be God has changed his mind. That if he still wants me to be married this year as he said, let him work everything out himself. But then, as I relaxed into that passive state, I just decided to collect the phone number of my neighbor’s sister-which they have been asking me to marry- in order to see if anything worthwhile could work out between us. As I started out wooing her, one of the nights, during my personal prayer session before going to bed, I prayed concerning the girl, asking the Lord, for his will concerning my marrying her. After praying, I slept, and very early in the morning, I awoke from sleep, still lying on my bed. As I laid on the bed, the thought of the girl I was wooing, came to my mind. But then, almost immediately, a word concerning my female best friend (Joy) just jumped to my mind. It went something like this: “Joy likes you so much”. Immediately, I got that, I understood what it meant in my spirit, but I quickly waved it off. I waved it off because there were certain things I didn’t want to put up with her- though I had the nudge of the Spirit that she is the person God wants me to marry… I put the thought off until I got the complete and final conviction of the Holy Ghost, that she is God’s perfect will for me. As I got that final conviction, I called her and shared my revelations with her, and she has accepted to marry me. And we’ll be marrying before the end of this year, according to the word of the Lord to me last year. And deep down my spirit, I am totally persuaded that our marriage, is going to be eternally hitch-free. In short, it is going to be a heaven on earth experience all the way, by the special grace of God. So if there is anything you’ve been believing God for, with no result to show yet, and you’ve even started to doubt and dismay, I encourage you to pick up your faith again, and be very expectant. Because your miracle is so very very close. It will happen in a twinkling of an eye. It will happen in one fell swoop, in the mighty name of Jesus Christ! Remain Blessed! Emeke.

Hi everyone! I just want to ask, who are the 144, 000 elect during rapture, and it says in the Bible, that they are blameless and no lie has ever been seen in them, does this mean they are perfect? And about the two witnesses, who are they? Just curious. Thanks.

Hi Guys and Gals, As some of you know i believe the pre wrath view on the rapture and as such i believe we will go past the mid point into the tribulation, as believers, and so i should be prepared that my house not be broken up. I think spiritual preparedness is the number one priority, but then it always should be anyway. But besides that i believe God wants us to be prepared for these days, otherwise he would not have told us about them. In order to have an effective evangelistic ministry during these days its a good idea to not be focused on housing and food and generally trying to stay alive but rather the Lords work. So, i am currently moving out of Sydney (Australia) and moving to a small village in the country with a population of less than 100. Ive enuf money to buy land and home outright so i cant be evicted come those dark days. I will be buying a sea container, a refrigerated one, to store food for those days. I hope to store enuf food to help feed our brothers and sisters in Christ who did not prepare for these days. I will more than likely build an underground bunker to hide in if need be also. I am also working on devices to enable off grid power supply (not solar) and my own tank water supply. Is anyone else preparing? I love to hear your plans.

I was responding to a different thread, where a poster expressed a sort of disbelief I guess, that some beleivers want to somehow prove themselves to God, by going through the tribulation. I felt my response, was worth posting as a topic on it's own, so here it is: I would rather go through the tribulation than be raptured out ahead of time, but there is a condition to that desire: That it be according to God's will. Our savior is our example, submit to the will of God, even if it is unpleasant for a while. 1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Oh to be able to do just that. I do not love pain of discomfort, in fact, I am a coward, but I also am not looking at this through fleshy eyes. I understand that nothing that can befall me in this life is worth worrying over: 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. I do not see suffering for Jesus to be something to avoided at all costs, I consider it a privelege. Why would I think, that I should be excluded, even from suffering and or death, where so many prophets, apostles, and marthys in the last 2000 years up to this present day, have led the way, to the glory of God? Those of us who hope to escape unscathed, are those who have their eyes fixed on comfort in this present age, instead of taking Jesus words to heart: 10“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Maybe we just want to refuse the extra blessings our Father wants to pour out on His children. I do not need to prove myself to God, He know what I am, and what I am not. I am however, willing to be spent for Him. 1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. Which is the greater act of worship? Singing a hymm in church, or presenting my body as living sacrifice. I can think of no greater act of worship, no greater act of love, than: 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. Those who are Jesus friends, are willing to die for Him, and we are called to that attitude. 24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Over and over in the New Testament, we are told to expect trouble, and to persevere in trouble. Are those just words? Or do they actually mean something? Aslo we are told that perseverance in tribulation improves the church, why would I not welcome improvement in the church? What benefit is there in escapism? Nothing that I know of, that is not worldy, temporal. So, speaking for myself, if God wants me to suffer, I volunteer. People in the tribulation will need help, will need the Gospel. I received that gift freely from God, with nothing on my part to deserve it. I can never pay God back for that, but I can offer to be there for those in the tribulation, that God loves just as much as He loves me. I only wish that I would carry that conviction in everyday life. Every person I fail to tell the gospel to, is another person I have shown contempt for, by not thinking them worthy enough for me to disturb my personal comfort in the hope of saving them from an eternity of suffering. I too, amd fleshly, and I know that in me, I am not obedient enough to do well in the tribulation. I recall that when push came to shove, Peter was a bit of a coward. I also recall that Peter was later filled with the Spirit, to the result that he was anything but a coward. One of the most common phrases accompanying the phrase filled with the Spirit, is 'full of boldness'. I think if God can do that for Peter, he can also do so far any or even every one of us. If I were to find myself in the tribulation, I pray for God's grace to enable me to stand for what I beleive, to stand for Him. Who is with me?

I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one. If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies. Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say: "The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation" or they will say: "The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation" Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation. So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive. Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis. I order things this way: Daniels 70th week begins The time of birthpains and some tribulation The appearance of the man of sin Great tribulation God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation) 70th week closes Jesus appears, coming in the clouds The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection) Living believers follow just after The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies They return with Christ to the Earth Battle of Armegeddon Jesus wins The Millenium begins The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding. I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing. What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse. I will start of with an example. My assertion: The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation My texts: 1 Thess 4:15-17 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Rev 20:4-6 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.) My Conclusion: Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints. Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5) Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation. Reason for undertanding these verses in this way: A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here. I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions. Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation. I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so". So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture. Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence. Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts. I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat. I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.