sheya joie Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2009 We are grafted into Israel, true. But we are still wild branches. That doesn't change. We are enjoined into them, but we don't receive new DNA. We become adopted children under a New Covenant. But we are not children of the Old Covenant. Only the Jews belong to the Old Covenant (and in receiving Yeshua as Messiah they too become a part of the New Covenant). Having been reading Galatians and Ephesians this week, I agree with Neb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2009 We are grafted into Israel, true. But we are still wild branches. That doesn't change. We are enjoined into them, but we don't receive new DNA. We become adopted children under a New Covenant. But we are not children of the Old Covenant. Only the Jews belong to the Old Covenant (and in receiving Yeshua as Messiah they too become a part of the New Covenant). Gentiles are not grafted into Israel but to God's Kingdom and grafted into Christ. So it does not matter if your a wild branch or original branch we who are in Christ are one body in him. The Olive Tree does not represent Israel but God and his Kingdom. So we are all branches wild or original. There is no difference between believing Jew or Gentiles in God eyes. Being born Jew or Gentile does not gain you any special privileges in the Kingdom of God. God does not have two bodies one for Jews and one for Gentiles. All who believe both Jew and Gentile are of the same body of Christ. If your an unbelieving Jew then your no better off then an unbelieving Gentile. If your in Christ then you do receive new DNA its called the Blood of Christ. We are all new creatures in Christ and the old is gone. Having Jewish DNA does not get you a free pass to haven; only the Blood of Christ can save you. Heb 8:5-7 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is Israel. Yeshua is the root. Gentiles are grafted in. Yes, the Kingdom of God is open to all people the vehicle He chose to bring His Son to the world is Israel. HE is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, King of Israel Is there a problem with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 28, 2009 If your in Christ then you do receive new DNA its called the Blood of Christ. We are all new creatures in Christ and the old is gone. Having Jewish DNA does not get you a free pass to haven; only the Blood of Christ can save you. Why does this always come up? No one claims Jews have any special privelidges. Being a natural branch versus a wild branch, though, means your calling and function here on Earth is a bit different. The Lord still has plans for the Jews . . . it's mentioned in Revelation. There is a reason they have survived as a people when by natural standards theyir name should have been left to nothing but history. When "all of Israel is saved" - look out world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2009 The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is Israel. Yeshua is the root. Gentiles are grafted in. Yes, the Kingdom of God is open to all people the vehicle He chose to bring His Son to the world is Israel. HE is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, King of Israel Is there a problem with that? Israel is described as branches within the Olive Tree not the Tree itself. Gentiles do not join Israel to be saved, they join Christ. As being apart of Christ you are apart of Kingdom of God. Jews who believe in Christ are considered natural branches. Jews who do not believe are the branches that were broken off. The Nation of Israel is not Gods Kingdom. Only those who believe and follow Christ are apart of this Kingdom. Yahshua preached to the Jews, that unless you believe you will not enter the Kingdom of God. I have no problem the fact that Israel was the nation that God chose to reveal himself to the World. That is a blessing. I pray often for unbelieving Israel to be saved in these last days according to scripture. It was their spiritual blindness that led to Gods ultimate plan for the nations to receive the Kingdom of God. It was always Gods ultimate plan to reach people all over the world. Not all of Israel is lost; there has alway been a ramanent of true Israel believers even today; Paul and the Apostles were apart of this ramanent on which the Church was built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Israel is described as branches within the Olive Tree not the Tree itself. Gentiles do not join Israel to be saved, they join Christ. The olive tree is Israel/The Kingdom of God. Gentiles don't join Israel to be saved, but they are grafted into Israel as a result of being saved. The modern concept of a the church being separate entity apart from Israel is a post-biblical concept. Jewish believers and Gentile believers are two subsets of Israel in Paul's metaphor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Gentiles are not grafted into Israel but to God's Kingdom and grafted into Christ. So it does not matter if your a wild branch or original branch we who are in Christ are one body in him. The Olive Tree does not represent Israel but God and his Kingdom. So we are all branches wild or original. There is no difference between believing Jew or Gentiles in God eyes. Being born Jew or Gentile does not gain you any special privileges in the Kingdom of God.You need to read Romans Chapter 11 better. Paul is using the olive tree metaphor to illustrate the relationship of the Gentile believers to Israel. There is no one who read the chapter in an unprejudiced manner that can see it as talking about anything other than Israel and the Gentile believers. God does not have two bodies one for Jews and one for Gentiles. All who believe both Jew and Gentile are of the same body of Christ. If your an unbelieving Jew then your no better off then an unbelieving Gentile.No one has said otherwise. You are trying to refute an argument that has not been raised. If your in Christ then you do receive new DNA its called the Blood of Christ. We are all new creatures in Christ and the old is gone. Having Jewish DNA does not get you a free pass to haven; only the Blood of Christ can save you.Did someone here say that Jews get a free pass to heaven? If not, then again, you are trying kick at arguments that no one has made. It would be better for you to actually read what is said instead of assigning values and motives to what other people say. You are basically responding to values YOU have assigned to our words and what YOU think we are saying as oppposed to first seeking clarification of what we actually say or mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Gentiles do not join Israel to be saved, they join Christ. No one is saying you join Israel to be saved. Where did you get that idea? We are joined in when we are saved, not to become saved. As being apart of Christ you are apart of Kingdom of God. Jews who believe in Christ are considered natural branches. Jews who do not believe are the branches that were broken off. Agreed. Not all of Israel is lost; there has alway been a ramanent of true Israel believers even today; Paul and the Apostles were apart of this ramanent on which the Church was built. Note, though, that Paul mentions how the branches were cut off that we might be grafted in, BUT if their casting away was the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?! Like I said, when all of Israel is saved - look out world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 1, 2009 No one is saying you join Israel to be saved. Where did you get that idea? If you say the Olive Tree is Israel then you must say that Gentiles must join Israel, but the Olive Tree does represent Israel but the Kingdom of God in which believing Israel and believing Gentiles are apart of. Romans 11 refers to but Jews and Gentiles as branches within the tree and not the tree itself. Big differnace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 No one is saying you join Israel to be saved. Where did you get that idea? If you say the Olive Tree is Israel then you must say that Gentiles must join Israel, but the Olive Tree does represent Israel but the Kingdom of God in which believing Israel and believing Gentiles are apart of. Romans 11 refers to but Jews and Gentiles as branches within the tree and not the tree itself. Big differnace. The Olive tree is used as a metaphor for Israel many times in the Bible, and Paul is using the same metaphor as well. Anyone familiar with the "Israelology" of the Bible will recognize the obvious connection. Romans 9, 10 and 11 deal with Israel and the Church's relationship to Israel. Chapters 9, 10 and 11 are the focus point of the book actually. Paul spends the 1st eight chapters explaining how Gentiles are able to be included into the Kingdom of God. Back then Gentile salvation by faith was a mystery, moreso than it is today. Today, the mystery has been stood on its head and now the question is how Jews can be saved and still remain Jewish. What the olive tree does not represent is the physicial, civil nation of Israel. It is not talking about a geographical nation, but a people. That should go without saying, but I thought I would just put that out there so we are on the same page where that part is concerned. I agree that it represents the Kingdom. The thing is, the Kingdom has a name: It's name is Israel. Jesus refers to Israel as the Kingdom of God in Matthew 21. The natural branches represent Jews and the wild represent Gentiles. That is the only way the metaphor can be understood as Paul intended it to be understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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