Guest shiloh357 Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 No I am just making a point. We should all learn to forgive and forget.No, what you mean is that you want to just forget about it, sweep under the rug and never talk about it again as if it never happened. That's really easy to say when YOU are not on the receiving end of it. To be honest, that comment has a very antik-Semitic tone to it, and you need to reevaluate it. Jews are constantly told that they need to just drop it and forget it. Jews were told that Holocaust was a fulfillment of Scripture when at Jesus' trial, they said, "let His blood be upon us and our children." The Nazis sold the final solution to the Chrisitan community as having a theological basis in the Christian faith and Jews watched their own family member and friends murdered and maimed at the hands of those who claimed they were doing the work of Christ. Many continue to have nightmares of the camps and you don't just "forget" about it. 1,700 years of persecution and torture and murder, but you think they should just forget about it and forgive. There will be no forgetting and it should not be forgotten. Every generation should be educated and they need to be taught that anti-Semitism, especially when it expressed by Christians. Christians are the biggest supporters and friends of Jews and their right to the Land of Israel.Only a small, very vocal sector of Evangelical Christians, to be honest. Christian support for Israel is not all that widespead. Most of Protestant Christianity subscribes to the teaching of Replacement Theology and economic divestment practices meant to weaken Israel's economy. I don't know what else your wanting Christians to do. Gee, I guess acknowledging the truth about the historical past and apologizing in the name of those who persecuted the Jews in the name of Jesus is just too much for your pride to accept? Sounds like you want them to have a "foot washing", but the truth is Christians are washing their feet in their support, love, and friendship. Why do you keep slapping them in the face and demanding more. Christians are consistently reaching out to Jews but I don't see any Jews reaching back.Some Christians are reaching out to them, but the majority don't, that is a problem and shows that there is still a lot of work to do on the Christian side where education and doctrine is concerned. What more can Christians do? 1. Expunge Replacement Theology from our churches. 2. Educate each successive generation on the evils of anti-Semitism 3. Educate each successive generation about the Church's contributions to the reinforcement of Jewish rejection of Jesus. 4. More denominations need to invest and support Israel as commanded in Scripture 5. Open up lines of genuine dialogue with the Jewish people and be willing to actually listen to them. That is just for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 7, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2009 Why does saying, "I'm sorry," threaten you so? I'm not asking you to give up any land, I'm not asking you to cut yourself, I'm not asking you to give up half your paycheck, . . . . Why is "I'm sorry," so horrible to you? And why should the unsaved Jews reach back? We're the ones who should be representing Yeshua to them. And not all Christians are doing as you say. Saying I am sorry is not an issue. The problem is your laying blame on the entire body of Christ for something most Christians are not guilty of. To me this is a complete disrepect for the true body of Christ. I am sure many in the Anti-Christian world love for all Christians bow down to them and admit we are the source of the worlds problems and evils, but it isn't true. I love and respect the body of Christ and will not allow people to cast false accusations and blame upon them as whole. Much of the Persecution of Jews through out history was done by the Roman Empire. The Roman Catholic Church was very much involved with persecuting Jews. The Roman Catholic Church persecuted and killed true Christians as well. Read Fox's book of martyrs. The RCC does not represent the Christianity or the Church of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 The problem is your laying blame on the entire body of Christ for something most Christians are not guilty of.No one said that most Christias today are guilty of this. What has been said is that the Church throughout history IS guilty as an institution, as a whole. The Church has a lot to be accountable for where its track record with Jews is concerned. Simply ignoring it, won't make it go away and only reinforces what Jews have believed about Christians for centuries. To me this is a complete disrepect for the true body of Christ.No, it simply reflects a level of honesty you refuse to face up to. I love and respect the body of Christ and will not allow people to cast false accusations and blame upon them as whole. The problem is that you have the entire historical record which says that these accusations are not false. But instead of being honest about that, your solution is to just ignore it and sweep it under the rug. Much of the Persecution of Jews through out history was done by the Roman Empire. That is not true, and like you said, you aren't much of a historian. That statement proves you right. Most of the persecution came from the Church. The Roman Catholic Church was very much involved with persecuting Jews. The RCC is not "The Roman Empire." Those are two separate entities. The RCC does not represent the Christianity or the Church of God. Irrelevant. The Jews were hated by Catholics and Protestants, both. There is a lot of early Church (Catholic) Fathers whose writings are foundational to Christian thought even in the Protestant denoms. So, the RCC cannot be dismissed as entirely nonChristian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahsway Posted March 7, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/15/1959 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Martin Luther Protested the Catholic Church but He was an anti-semite. Also, When Massachusetts became a state, they would not allow Jews to live there. The Presbyterian church does not support Israel but do support the Palestenians. Some Protestant churches teach dual-covenant theology and that to me is false. and there is much more evidence that the Protestant church has not been all that gracious to the Jewish people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted March 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.91 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Why does saying, "I'm sorry," threaten you so? I'm not asking you to give up any land, I'm not asking you to cut yourself, I'm not asking you to give up half your paycheck, . . . . Why is "I'm sorry," so horrible to you? And why should the unsaved Jews reach back? We're the ones who should be representing Yeshua to them. And not all Christians are doing as you say. Sorry for what? For being a Christian? For being white? Or male? Do you really want us to say we are sorry for something that happened decades and centuries ago? When I do something to feel sorry for, then I would say I was sorry. Why is forgetting a past that neither you nor I were involved in so horrible to you? This blame game is lame. The reason Jews don't accept Christ is the same as gentiles. A 5 letter word - faith -. The lack of it. And please don't accuse me of being anti-Semitic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Do you really want us to say we are sorry for something that happened decades and centuries ago? Actually, that is a biblical concept. It is also an act of humility. Tell me this. Let's say a few decades ago, someone murdered your wife or fiance. Would it seem inappropriate to you if the family of the murderer sought to express their grief and tried to make some form of restitution as an expression of their condolence and sorrow over what one their family had done? How would that make you feel? Why is forgetting a past that neither you nor I were involved in so horrible to you?Because history repeats itself. Human nature hasn't changed nation after nation after nation has persecuted the Jews, and each of those nations/empires are either extinct relics, or are now irrelevant. Choosing to ignore what happened only reinforces one very important thing to Jews. They are taught that Christians hate Jews. By choosing to forget and ignore what prior Christians have done is as bad as what they did. It is basically saying "I don't care" and whether or not your arrogant pride can make room for it or not, it is perceived as silent approval of what happened. Moral indifference was the main response of the Church to the Holocaust while it was happening. Christians in the US didn't really care. The attitude was "I'm not the one killing Jews." Most of the Church was busy singing hymns and having picnics in the park and were completely disinterested and morally indifferent to what was happening to the Jews. It wasn't that they didn't know, but like you, they simply didn't care. By taking the arrogant position you have taken, you telling the Jews, "I don't care what my predecessors and if it happens again, I still won't care." Your attitdude and position only reinforces Jewish unbelief. No one is saying YOU have to bear the guilt personally. But by choosing forget what the Church has done, you have no way of knowing of what to do or say or reverse the problem. Its like the old saying goes, you can't fix what you don't know is broken. Part of sharing Christ is empathizing with the other person and putting yourself in their place and to some degree, identifying with them. Paul did this all the time. Don't ever tell someone you love them unless you know what causes them pain. The reason Jews don't accept Christ is the same as gentiles. A 5 letter word - faith -. The lack of it. And much of that is because of how the Church made Jesus undesirable to the Jews. That is what you don't seem to understand. People like you are not willing to be honest about the historical record. You simply don't want to face up to WHY they cannot place their face in Jesus. You can rant all you want about it, but the Jews were, for 1,700 years Jews demonized, brutalized, hounded, hunted and murdered just being Jews and this was done by thos proclaiming Christ and they were taught this by the many of the very same Church leaders whose writings are still venerated today. These teachings led up to and helpled to form a perverted theological basis for the Holocaust. You cannot simply brush that aside as if it has no bearing on why Jews reject Jesus. This blame game is lame. It is not a game, Parker. You don't have to like it, but truth, history and fact all testify to what the historical Church has done to the Jews. Like it, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Sorry for what? For being a Christian? For being white? Or male? Do you really want us to say we are sorry for something that happened decades and centuries ago? When I do something to feel sorry for, then I would say I was sorry. I am sorry for the horrible things done to the Jews in the name of Jesus. It grieves my heart to hear Jews proclaiming that Jesus is the enemy who wants to destroy them on account that this is what what shown them. Part of Jesus' ministry was to "comfort those who mourn." How do we live like Him if we don't comfort those who mourn as well? Why is forgetting a past that neither you nor I were involved in so horrible to you? Because it won't win souls. This blame game is lame. It's not about blame. It's about doing whatever it takes to rescue people from Hell. The reason Jews don't accept Christ is the same as gentiles. A 5 letter word - faith -. The lack of it. Except that the Jews have been taught that Jesus hates them. How can they believe Jesus loves them if they are not shown love - the kind of love that would sacrifice for them in Jesus' name? And please don't accuse me of being anti-Semitic. I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Saying I am sorry is not an issue. It is when it is part of an expression of love, the kind of love that would lay its life down (or lay its dignity down) for another. Is there ever a sacrifice that is too great, too absurd, too extreme, in order to bring a lost soul to salvation? The problem is your laying blame on the entire body of Christ for something most Christians are not guilty of. To me this is a complete disrepect for the true body of Christ. I am sure many in the Anti-Christian world love for all Christians bow down to them and admit we are the source of the worlds problems and evils, but it isn't true. I love and respect the body of Christ and will not allow people to cast false accusations and blame upon them as whole. It's not about assigning blame. It's about saving souls. Much of the Persecution of Jews through out history was done by the Roman Empire. The Roman Catholic Church was very much involved with persecuting Jews. The Roman Catholic Church persecuted and killed true Christians as well. Read Fox's book of martyrs. The RCC does not represent the Christianity or the Church of God. Protestants aren't innocent in this matter, either. When Hitler and the Nazis used Martin Luther's very words against the Jews to rally support for their genocide, how can you lay the blame solely on Rome? No, the "lost sheep of the house of Israel," as Jesus called them, need to see that the Shepherd is not the boogy-man that has been demonstrated to them. The only way they can see Him for who He really is is to see Him through us. And if we can't show the kind of love that will lay down its life for them, how will they see His love through us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted March 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.91 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Raise your hand if you believe that God will accept the excuse that "the Christians abused me and that's why I rejected the Messiah" when facing judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 9, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Is that the attitude that will inspire people to want to know Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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