Massorite Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted March 1, 2009 The two passages of I Corinthians 15:51-58; I Thessalonians 4:13-18 our use by people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture I don't believe in this theory but am honestly confused. I don't see how the rapture can come in I Corinthians 15, basically because I see death being swallow up in victory (v.54-55), my question is if the pre-trib rapture takes place here how can death be destroy here? A second of three questions is in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, v. 15 says "...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." This seems to be talking about Jesus second coming, how then is this the pre-trib rapture? A third question I think or maybe it just a statement of my poor study habits. When I first came to Christ I love to read the book of Revelation, but not for the right reason but instead to learn of the end times and the anti-christ not about our saviour Jesus Christ. Does anyone know of a good book for the study of the Book of Revelation where the author keeps his/her eyes on Jesus? Revelation Illustrated and Made Plain by Tim Lahaye or Revelation Unveiled by Tim Lahaye Anything written by Tim Lahaye should be immediately thrown out. You go bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayahtowb Posted March 10, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 90 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/20/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2009 Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:Hey ezekiel33, according to Revelation 1.7 there is no rapture, what say ye? Also according to Ezekiel 13.20 God is against any escape/false salvation. Again brother, what say ye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayahtowb Posted March 11, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 90 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/20/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 11, 2009 I think... The translation of the living saints into their immortal bodies, which occurs immediately after the resurrection of the just at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ is what is referred to as the ''post trib rapture'' and if you do not believe in that then you really need to do some more studying on the subject, The secound advent of Christ is for judgment, and is not referring to anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul 84 Posted March 11, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1965 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 "(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. " (John 5:28-29) So this speaks of the (physical) dead. About the living "(51) Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (52) In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (I Corinthians 15:51-53) see also Philippians 3:20-21; I John 3:1-2; I Corinthians 13:8-12; Daniel 12:1-3) Not a 100% sure but I believe the Word say we are to be changed instantly. The following has no real scripture to stand on it is my own view, but I think we will get the new body than be judged, because then we will see God righteousness perfectly and not darkly (I Corinthians 13:8-12) with the finite mind we have, we cannot understand all God ways. Thank you everybody for your comments got some great authors from both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayahtowb Posted March 11, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 90 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/20/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 11, 2009 Are the living translated into immortal bodies at the 2nd coming or not?No, the breath of life body is already inside each of us. Lets use the example: I'm looking at you as your looking at me (in the flesh), then God's consuming fire melt our flesh and we see burning bones and other corruptibles also, leaving that breath of life body standing instead (like documented in Matthew 16.27-28, along with other agreeing passages throughout scripture). This isn't a rapture, it's judgment time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh62 Posted March 11, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,683 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/14/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1962 Share Posted March 11, 2009 The two passages of I Corinthians 15:51-58; I Thessalonians 4:13-18 our use by people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture I don't believe in this theory but am honestly confused. I don't see how the rapture can come in I Corinthians 15, basically because I see death being swallow up in victory (v.54-55), my question is if the pre-trib rapture takes place here how can death be destroy here? A second of three questions is in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, v. 15 says "...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." This seems to be talking about Jesus second coming, how then is this the pre-trib rapture? A third question I think or maybe it just a statement of my poor study habits. When I first came to Christ I love to read the book of Revelation, but not for the right reason but instead to learn of the end times and the anti-christ not about our saviour Jesus Christ. Does anyone know of a good book for the study of the Book of Revelation where the author keeps his/her eyes on Jesus? Revelation Illustrated and Made Plain by Tim Lahaye or Revelation Unveiled by Tim Lahaye Would Lifeway have that in stock? That sounds to be exactly what I need; Revelation puzzles me at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted March 12, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted March 12, 2009 The two passages of I Corinthians 15:51-58; I Thessalonians 4:13-18 our use by people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture I don't believe in this theory but am honestly confused. I don't see how the rapture can come in I Corinthians 15, basically because I see death being swallow up in victory (v.54-55), my question is if the pre-trib rapture takes place here how can death be destroy here? A second of three questions is in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, v. 15 says "...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." This seems to be talking about Jesus second coming, how then is this the pre-trib rapture? A third question I think or maybe it just a statement of my poor study habits. When I first came to Christ I love to read the book of Revelation, but not for the right reason but instead to learn of the end times and the anti-christ not about our saviour Jesus Christ. Does anyone know of a good book for the study of the Book of Revelation where the author keeps his/her eyes on Jesus? Revelation Illustrated and Made Plain by Tim Lahaye or Revelation Unveiled by Tim Lahaye Would Lifeway have that in stock? That sounds to be exactly what I need; Revelation puzzles me at times. Tim Lahaye has no idea what the book of Revelation is saying. You Go Eze! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayahtowb Posted March 26, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 90 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/20/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2009 At first I thought you were just mistaking terms, but now i know you are plain delusional 1st Cor 15 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: However in later in 1st Corinthians it say this.... 1st Cor 15 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality In the words of Paul himself...''thou fool'' do you not know that we will be change for this mortal must put on immortal. The translation of the mortal to immortal is the rapture, you can call it whatever you want, call it the gathering together of the saints, call it the catching away, or the translation, or you can call it the rapture, but to say it will not happen or is not biblical is simply foolish. Nowhere in 1st Corinthians do we see a rapture, only a secound coming. In the Old Testament we see God is against this so called rapture, and Christ never teaches it either, can you show us where Christ teaches this? He doesn't. God's will isn't hard to follow, from cover to cover the bible is about Christ. He teaches us in Matthew 4.17 to repent as the "...Kingdom of heaven is at hand", but all the people didn't see any change, infact they might have thought ...'what kingdom?' So instead they hang Him on a cross, but that plays in God's favor, because of all the souls yet unborn in the flesh. He knows the "... But now ..." in Luke 22.36, puts God's Kingdom on hold until judgment. He teaches no rapture, but a salvation instead. I got another question. Do you even bother to read the scriptures offered to you? because they are from God, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celt Posted March 26, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 258 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/04/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2009 The two passages of I Corinthians 15:51-58; I Thessalonians 4:13-18 our use by people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture I don't believe in this theory but am honestly confused. I don't see how the rapture can come in I Corinthians 15, basically because I see death being swallow up in victory (v.54-55), my question is if the pre-trib rapture takes place here how can death be destroy here? A second of three questions is in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, v. 15 says "...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." This seems to be talking about Jesus second coming, how then is this the pre-trib rapture? A third question I think or maybe it just a statement of my poor study habits. When I first came to Christ I love to read the book of Revelation, but not for the right reason but instead to learn of the end times and the anti-christ not about our saviour Jesus Christ. Does anyone know of a good book for the study of the Book of Revelation where the author keeps his/her eyes on Jesus? Ans. 1 Note the main subject of both passages... 1 Cor 15:35 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (KJV) 1Thes 4:16 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (KJV) Paul is speaking of the same event in both passages, the resurrection of the dead. He's simply going into more detail in the 1 Cor.15 Chapter, defining the type of body the resurrection is, while also covering Christ's second coming on the final trumpet, the 7th of Rev.11:15. Both passages support each other, and are not separate timelined events, which is in support of a post-tribulational rapture, not a pre-trib rapture. Further, the original pre-trib doctrine came from John Darby's 1830's idea of the "secret rapture". Prior to the 1800's, Christianity as a whole held to the post-tribulational coming of Christ and our gathering to Him. The Pre-Trib view is a relatively new doctrine when comparing it with how long the post-trib view has historically been held by the Church. And because of that, some so-called Pre-Trib scholars have been found guilty of 'revisionism' with writings of the early Church fathers. Ans.2. The 1 Thess.4 passage is not about a pre-trib rapture. Paul is simply giving comfort about the saints who have passed on, saying that if we believe that Christ rose from the dead, then know that He will bring those saints with Him when He comes. The actual Greek word for "prevent" in 1 Thess.4:15 means 'PRECEED'. The saints still on the earth at His coming shall not 'preceed' the saints that sleep in Jesus. It simply means they are with Him now, and He will bring them with Him at His coming, when He will gather all of us together, on the 7th trumpet. Ans.3 The only way to properly understand our Lord's Book of Revelation is, to get it directly from Him within study of all His Word. But of course, you already knew that right? But maybe not this; all the symbols in Revelation have already been covered in previous Books of The Bible. And most of them occur in the Books of the Old Testament prophets. The reason there's many faulty views of Revelation is because of lack of study in how The LORD already used its symbology in other Bible Books, and how He already covered many of the Revelation events prophetically in the Old Testament prophets. I understand how that might sound like a kind of let-down for many believers who thought all they need to really understand is The New Testament Books. For the majority, that's gonna' mean going back to do in-depth study of the Old Testament prophets, and then covering Revelation anew. It's getting late, so some might need to get crackin'. I can assure those who do go back and study, they will be rewarded with much more understanding than they could imagine. Not just Revelation is being opened up to us today, but many endtime Messages within the Old Testament prophets too. This is also why Peter gave us the following admonition for the last days... 2 Pet 3:1-2 1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: (KJV) Peter tells us study of the Old Testament prophets in the last days is still important. There is a concerted effort by the "crept in unawares" (Jude 1) to keep many brethren from going back and doing that Bible study. I'm not surprised, because ideas like the Old Testament Books being all past history helps keep them deceived, and allows all the confusing symbology conjured up by doctrines of men to be applied to Revelation instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayahtowb Posted April 27, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 90 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/20/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted April 27, 2009 You keep calling these events The changing of the living into immortal bodies at the resurrection of the righteous is what is known as the rapture and it is going to happen just as 1st Corinthians 15 and 1st Thessalonians says it will. These two event (the resurrection and rapture of the just) do occur at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ not before the tribulation. a rapture and Christ never teaches this, infact He teaches the oppsite! Please show us where Christ teaches a rapture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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