The Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Book of Revelation

[Massorite]

Not so Murse. One scripture only tells us that there will not ever be a 'pre trib" rapture and Jesus is very clear on that point. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after thr tribulation of those days". These words and the words 'and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds (glory) of heaven in verse 30 tell us that beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus will be appearing in the clouds and sending His angels to pick us up "after the tribulation of those days" and there is nothing gray about these words spoken by Jesus and recorded by Matthew.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there is no scriptural proof what so ever written any where in the bible about the charactoristics of the pre-tribImmediately racharacteristicspture concept. There is no where in the bible where you can find the bible telling us that there will be "seven years of tribulation". There is no biblical proof that the "restrainer is the church" and the only entity that actually restrains and fights for the people of God in the spirit realm is Micheal the arch angel.

The pre-trib doctrine also teaches that there will be a post resurrection evangelistic movement done by the 144,000 that will cover the whole globe after the seven years of tribulation begins and it will be those newly born Christians who will be suffering the great tribulation/persecution who will be dieing by the millions in the name of Christ. But guess what? The bible never says anything about any movement to re-evangelise the world after the ressurrection nor does the bible say that the 144,000 chosen Isrealite are going to be going anywhere but it does say that they are going to be in Isreal.

The botton line is that the pre-tribevangelizeresurrectionIsraeliteIsraelbottom doctrine is not scripturally provable and if these things are not written in the bible they don't exist.

As for the bride of Christ. He will be doing with His bride exactly as Jewish custom dictates. He will come to the brides house along with His enterage and pick her up. Next He will take her to His Fathers house and presantentouragepresent her to Him as an except-able gift and from there to the wedding supper. I probably skipped something but what the hay.

For your point to be valid, you would have to show that Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, was speaking to the church.

To be honest with you I have to tell you that I have never studied the Olivet Discourse. But I am going to be doing that now. However what does the Olivet Discorse have to do with what is not written in the bible?

[Massorite]

What tickles me is how so many are so sure there is NOT a pre-trib rapture that you are willing to call it "heresy". Though you don't keep in mind all of the scriptures while quoting this. IF you would have kept in mind all the scriptures, it would bring a thought as if a post-trib summoning was in fact the ONLY way...there would be nobody left on earth. Let's think. We all go through the tribulation...at the end, Jesus comes like a "thief in the night", we are all called up, He destroys the rest of the world, comes back...starts His reign.

Ok, Well, In Revelation 20 we see that Satan is bound for 1000 years. At the end of that, he is released for a short time to make war and deceive....Well, who is he deceiving?!?!? Everyone on earth according to post-trib rapture people have already been made incorruptible. So, satan is wandering around asking people that could NEVER be corrupted to join his side??? doesn't make sense.

In Ezekiel, we see the destruction of Gog. This event has not happened yet. This is the prophetic event that will happen at the end of the millenium. Who's bones and weapons are being burned? We are all incorruptible once again. Are we to believe that we will die again at the hand of satan?

In Matthew 24, we see Jesus warning those that are in Judea to flee. What, the rest of the world, even us here in America shouldn't worry?!?!? Not going to affect us? Funny, the bible calls the tribulation a testing of the world

And, why is it we see that there will be no more death in Revelation 21? We should see this right after the tribulation considering everyone of Jesus believers are taken up and the rest are judged. Which brings me to another point, why does He wait 1000 years to Judge all? seems He could do it right there since everyone really has been judged.

Furthermore, I think it's important to consider why Jesus calls His church His "bride". In knowing the history of Jewish customs, would shed much light on the ceremony that takes place.

With all that said, taking scripture as a WHOLE, shows that there can be a pre-trib rapture of the church. The tribulation is a testing period for the world, but mostly the Jews. This is their last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy. It was put on hold for the purpose of the Church. Once this last week starts, the church age is over.

Many focus so hard that a "rapture" will be simply a taking away of all believers alive at that time. Like we will just vanish into thin air. Now, this is a possibility, but has the thought ever occurred that we may just be taken...to the people left it will look like a mass death. Our bodies still here, spirit and soul with Him. waiting for the time that our bodies will be resurrected? It's just a thought.

Let's play make believe. All Christians alive appear to have died. A leader arises with an answer. Maybe this answer will be a comforting one to the people. maybe it will be more along the lines that we have worshiped a false god and the real god has punished us....this would make a perfect paved way for the people living to worship something false.

Who knows. All I do know, is that it is very gray on how it will happen. I think people should be cautious to call something unknown which is based on the bible as a "damnable heresy". Remember Jesus' words.

Revelation 3:10 - Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We know that He isn't talking about day to day trials and tribulations...we are to rejoice in those times. This time to come, is not a time for rejoicing.

Not so Murse. One scripture only tells us that there will not ever be a 'pre trib" rapture and Jesus is very clear on that point. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after thr tribulation of those days". These words and the words 'and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds (glory) of heaven in verse 30 tell us that beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus will be appearing in the clouds and sending His angels to pick us up "after the tribulation of those days" and there is nothing gray about these words spoken by Jesus and recorded by Matthew.

What's gray is your interpretation. You say Jesus will be picking "us" up. The bible declares He will gather His elect. The elect, have always been the Jews. These are the same Jews that are sealed Mid way through Revelation.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there is no scriptural proof what so ever written any where in the bible about the charactoristics of the pre-tribImmediately racharacteristicspture concept. There is no where in the bible where you can find the bible telling us that there will be "seven years of tribulation".

There is no proof on a post-trib either. Funny thing is, is we are not to know the day nor the hour...the timing will be unknown. Yet through proper study, we could easily see the timing of a second coming...just wait for the war in the valley of Meggido. Another consideration is that if you follow the time line of daniels 70-week prophecy, 69 have been fulfilled. according to historians, the 69 weeks representing 483 years, falls in place perfectly to the coming of the Messiah. To the day. That would mean the last "week" would be 7 years. and according to revelation, we see the two witnesses who torment the anti-christ for 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) in the midst of the trib (half way) He gets wounded and rises again. This means there will be yet another 3 1/2 years.

There is no biblical proof that the "restrainer is the church" and the only entity that actually restrains and fights for the people of God in the spirit realm is Micheal the arch angel.

You are right, there is no proof. I do believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit though...not the church. Shoot, we haven't been able to hold back satan for 2,000 years now. Jesus is the light of this world, the Holy Spirit gives Him that testimony...darkness can't mingle with the light. Once the light is taken away, darkness has free reign.

The pre-trib doctrine also teaches that there will be a post resurrection evangelistic movement done by the 144,000 that will cover the whole globe after the seven years of tribulation begins and it will be those newly born Christians who will be suffering the great tribulation/persecution who will be dieing by the millions in the name of Christ. But guess what? The bible never says anything about any movement to re-evangelise the world after the ressurrection nor does the bible say that the 144,000 chosen Isrealite are going to be going anywhere but it does say that they are going to be in Isreal.

I've actually never heard of this. The 144,000 are the Jews that God promised to save in order for the house of Israel (Jacob) to be saved and inherit the land of Israel forever. this is God keeping His promise to the Jews. But, like in the old testament, the Jews were punished for their non-belief. They worshipped other gods and would not keep the one True Gods commandments...so He allowed them to be taken captive and punished. This last week is His last call for the Jews to repent and come back to Him. When the antichrist sits in the future temple...They will know it's an abomination. They will refer back to daniel and know they have followed a false messiah.

The botton line is that the pre-trib doctrine is not scripturally provable and if these things are not written in the bible they don't exist.

With your logic than, you should forget about your post-trib theory as well...it falls under the same basis.

As for the bride of Christ. He will be doing with His bride exactly as Jewish custom dictates. He will come to the brides house along with His enterage and pick her up. Next He will take her to His Fathers house and presantentouragepresent her to Him as an except-able gift and from there to the wedding supper. I probably skipped something but what the hay.

Jewish custom dictates once the groom comes to get his bride, He takes her back to His fathers house for "7 days"

First of all great. I didn't know that the Bridegroom take his bride back to his fathers and stays for seven days. Thanks.

So your telling me that in Matthew 24:29 where it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" is not proof enough that the catching away will not happen until after a period of tribulation?

I agree that we are not to know the day or the hour but I got a better event to look for then the battle of Armaggedon. It is a new Jewish temple built on the temple mount. In 2 Thess it say that the antichrist will sit in the temple of God showing himself as if he was God. Which means that he will be sitting in the holy of holies the same as God did in the old testament and for him to be able to do that there must be a temple on the temple mount.

Yes the restrainer may very well be the Holy Spirit. Which is even more proof that the pre-trib concept can not be exceptable. With the Holy Spirit gone who can be reborn? We could be saved without the Holy Spirit by excepting Christ as our saviour but without the baptism of the Holy Spirit where would the gifts be coming from for those who are saved after the Holy Spirit is removed from this world?. The Holy Spirit is what helps us to communicate with God, it is what God uses to work through us with. When we lay hands on someone it is not us but the Holy Spirit within us that heals but if the Holy Spirit is removed from this earth that can not happen.

Now according to my Strong's the word "elect" in all of the new testament is speaking about the chosen of God and nobody on this earth Jew or Gentile will be chosen unless they have excepted Christ as their Saviour. Just being a Jew is not good enough any more. One must also except Christ as well. The word "elect" also means "the favorite or the select".

According to my Thayers Greek Lexicon the word "elect" in the new testament in general is speaking about those that are picked out, those that are rare, those who are chosen by God and lastly those who have obtained salvation through Christ. When the bible is speaking about the Jewish elect it is speaking about "pious Jews" and no Jew is considered Pious by God unless he/she has been saved. The reality is that you and I and every other true Christian are the elect. We are the wild olive branch grafted in. Which means that we are partakers of the same special considerations as the Jews. In short, we are the elect.

By the way. I didn't say that Jesus will be picking us up. I said that scripture tells us that His reapers/angels will be picking us up.

The pre trib concept says that the antichrist will appear just after the resurrection but in 2 Thess 2:3 it says that "the day of Christ" will not come until there is a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. There are some who would argue with me but as far as my research has brought me the day of Christ is the resurrection day and according to this verse the resurrection will not take place until after the antichrist has appeared on the world scene and is revealed to be what he is.

I agree with you. The 144'000 will be Jews and I do believe that they will also be evangelists but only for the Jews and not the rest of the world. I also believe that the ministry of the 144'000 will take place after the resurrection. It will be Israels last chance to except ChDanielrist and according to sentouragecripture they will all bend the knee to Christ.

[Maranathanna]

Murse32 "God has not forgotten about His promise...nor will he ever replace those that He loved...We, as the church, should not be so egotistic."

As I've been preparing for a bible study on "the chosen", the verses that comes to mind when I read the above is Romans 11:17-21 (NASB)

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, {remember that} it is not you who supports the root, but the root {supports} you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I'd also like to pose the question that if Abba God has, or will, "forget" His promise to His original chosen nation of Israel, then what assurance do we have as the ekklesia, the called out ones, i.e. the church, that He will not "forget" His promises to us?

[Bold Believer]

The rapture is the changing of the body from earthly to spiritual. It occurs on the last day. Jesus said so numerous times. Last means last. Not seven years before. Not 3.5 years before. If there is anything AFTER last, IT AIN'T LAST. Rapture is a slang term. The correct term is either allasso or metamorphosis.

IT is written:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (allasso: to be exchanged for something else)

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The change occurs at the LAST trump. IF the rapture occurred before the tribulation, we'd be going at the first trump (It won't, it can't, the teaching is wrong.) because there would supposedly be 3.5 to 7 years of hard times AFTERWARD. So then, somebody is wrong. Either the pre-trib folks or Paul. My bet is that Paul is right, not any of the modern teachers.

Furthermore, Peter chimes in in II Peter 3 with this:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Same thief in the night phrase, but Peter qualifies it even more by telling us WHAT ELSE HAPPENS.

The heavens pass away with a great noise

The elements melt with fervent heat

The earth burns up

The works IN the earth burn up

Doesn't sound like any tribulation there to me. Sounds more like the Great Destruction or perhaps better termed the Great Paroxysm or Great Conflagration.

Someone has things wrong. I doubt that it's Paul and Peter.

[Maranathanna]

1Thessalonians 4:17 (NASB)

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Strong's Number: 726 a

[Murse32]

Murse32 "God has not forgotten about His promise...nor will he ever replace those that He loved...We, as the church, should not be so egotistic."

As I've been preparing for a bible study on "the chosen", the verses that comes to mind when I read the above is Romans 11:17-21 (NASB)

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, {remember that} it is not you who supports the root, but the root {supports} you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I'd also like to pose the question that if Abba God has, or will, "forget" His promise to His original chosen nation of Israel, then what assurance do we have as the ekklesia, the called out ones, i.e. the church, that He will not "forget" His promises to us?

Thank you Maranathanna, but I think you have me confused with another. I do not believe God has forgotten His promise. In fact, I've spent many posts, on this and on others refuting the false beliefs of the "replacement theory" and defending God's promise to the Jews.

[Gauntlet]

Personally, I don't worry about all this trib/mid-trib/post-trib stuff. Whatever will be will be.

[pokemaughan]

Personally, I don't worry about all this trib/mid-trib/post-trib stuff. Whatever will be will be.

Wise man.

[Gauntlet]

Personally, I don't worry about all this trib/mid-trib/post-trib stuff. Whatever will be will be.

Wise man.

How does that Serenity Prayer go?

[pokemaughan]

Personally, I don't worry about all this trib/mid-trib/post-trib stuff. Whatever will be will be.

Wise man.

How does that Serenity Prayer go?

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;

Enjoying one moment at a time;

Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;

Taking, as He did, this sinful world

as it is, not as I would have it;

Trusting that He will make all things right

if I surrender to His Will;

That I may be reasonably happy in this life

and supremely happy with Him

Forever in the next.

Amen.

Something to live by.