Do countries deserve the leaders they get?

[Fez]

To start off with, I do not presume to judge, my Lord and Father is the only judge in my eyes. But, my country South Africa, is going into national elections on the 22 April 2009 - next Wednesday.

An introduction to set my question:-

There are a dozen or so parties presently looking for my vote, all with the usual promises, manifesto's, and hot air that go with any election. The ruling party, The African National Congress (ANC) - Nelson Mandela's original party, is probably set to win, not through vote rigging or any such thing, but because they are the party that liberated South Africa from apartheid, and are still very popular, especially amoungst rural voters. Democracy is working as best it can, and there are oppositon parties that will contest resonably strongly. The hope of most oppositon voters is that the ANC does not get a two thirds majority, allowing them to change the constitution, for down that road leads (maybe), Zimbabwe or Somalia type government, or one party dictatorship.

The man set to be our next president is Jacob Zuma (99.99% certainty).

His history is that he was imprisoned on Robben Island with Nelson Mandela, was released and had to leave the country for many years, and fought the struggle against apartheid from outside its borders. So far so good.

Upon returning after the ANC took the elections he was made deputy president. He was then removed from office due to suspected corruption in a multi billion $ arms deal in which his financial advisor was imprisoned for 15 years. Last week although the courts said there was evidence that he was involved, it would not stand in court in its present format. His financial advisor was released from prison at almost the same time for "health" reasons.

He has 3 wives (and is about to take a 4th), he professes to be a christian. He was found having an affair with a young woman, who may or may not be HIV positive, and who later charged him for rape. The charges were dropped. His answer to the HIV thing, and unprotected sex was, but I took a shower afterwards! Not a role model for a country which has one of the highest AIDS populations in the world.

My question is that the bible tells us to repect our leaders, as God has placed them there for a reason (or am I wrong in this? - if so please guide me to the correct scripture and try not to use conjecture or personal opinions please - although I am willing to listen to reasoned arguments).

I am not into the end times debate, that is the Lords perogative, and we have seen leaders such as Nero, Vespasian, Caligua, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc, etc, come and go. (not that I place Jacob Zuma in this evil class, nor do I judge him)

I wonder what South Africa, and many other countries have done to deserve the leaders they have, or are about to get?

Again, this is not a personal attack on any leader, living or dead. Again, I do not judge, this is mearly a theological question and a point of getting others opinions and scriptural advice so that I can better understand and try and make up my own mind, using the bible as my guide.

[Believer1997]

Fez,

This election sounds like a problem that would perplex King Solomon... I think the Scriptures you quote are accurate - but ... is there anybody else running???

This man who stands to win sounds pretty... corrupt. Pray, Dear Fez...Pray.

[yesult]

There is a scripture in the old testment that indicates that nations get the leaders they deserve. But I've forgotten where it is or how the exact wording goes but I remember reading it years ago. I think it's in proverbs.

Assuming I'm right - I think however, that when you look at a nation - you can't just look at the nice people, you have to look at the whole spectrum and what the nation allows. Is violence rampant? Why? Is abortion? Murder - political or religious/tribal? Is molestation? Who is worshipped in a spiritual sense and what are the results in human rights violation? How sexually promiscous is the nation? How perverse? (since it's the children who ultimatly suffer the most as a nation declines in this area? Is the nation just or unjust - in what ways? How widescale is corruption? How greedy? How do they treat other nations?

When you look at the 'average' person and how they're treated - and more importantly, what they view as an acceptable way to treat others - I think it will ultimatly reflect in the leadership. Look at nations who have suffered oppression and scroll back to see how they've treated others (or women and children) in the past. The results can be suprising sometimes.

An immoral nation don't deserve a moral leader because they're likely to just attack them. Politics is a good example of this. Nor will they want leaders who will challenge their standards too strongly.

That's why it's so important to pray for our leaders I think - but particularly to pray for our nations. People who love corruption don't deserve good leadership unless they repent. And they'll just be in constant rebellion against it anyway.

A nations values are set by its majority and God does make it very obvious that he's a God of justice. The major and minor prophets in the bible are full of warnings against israel and judah for the justice coming on them for their sin. That doesn't mean there wern't any good people in the nation, just that the nations as a whole were doing stuff to their own people and foreigners that God ultimatly bought judgment on them over. If a nation is on a downward spiral - what's going to stop them?

If a nation accepts wickedness as a norm - they can't expect righteousness to govern them. And I think between that - it's all a matter of degrees.

I mean can you imagine a person of huge integrity who would be adament about morality and justice in the west (justice in the true sense of the word) being voted in and supported? I think we all love the idea - but living with the reality is different.

Which makes human nature sound pretty ugly. But at the end of the day - we're selfish beings - and without respect to a just, higher power, selfishness only leads one direction.

PS. Praying for your nation at this time

[EricH]

I don't know. But scripture does indicate that it is God who raises leaders up and brings them down

[glorywatch]

Praise God none of us get what we deserve. God does move leaders into authority...good or bad. All of it according to HIS purpose.

Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the highest powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God." This whole chapter deals with human government and civil rule.

[Fez]

Thanks for some reasoned answers people, I am going to delve into the scripures and see what I can find. I am also praying, the vote count so far seems as if he has won a 2/3 rds majority which allows his party to change the constitution! Bet the first thing is immunity from prosecution for the president. Woe is us.

The Lord rules supreme, and there are no elections in heaven, only the elected, thank goodness.

Wish politicians would see that, but they are not very good at worring about much except thier next term are they?

Blessings