Ovedya Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Servant, In fact we should judge no one on the basis of eating and drinking (Col. 2:16) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2009 Yes, you are right it is not about the amount of alcohol but the intent..you can not drink Nyquil for a social lift (some street people have). But also you can not drink the 14% of today by justifying it with the .2 %(made up guess) of yesterday. Stop making up guesses. The wine in the Bible was intoxicating and we know this because there ARE admonishments against getting drunk! But not a single one against drinking. Except to 2 Nazarites and to priests in the Holiest of Holies. That's it, there aren't any others. With hundreds of references to wine, God could have easily made it clear that if He did not want us to partake, He would have. Now if you think God doesn't want us to drink at a drop, then truth is Mohammed did a better job at getting that message across to followers. Yesterday, when someone made the claim that the alcohol back then was 3 percent, I said that is close to the equivalent of a lite cooler. (i think it's 3.5) I just KNEW that percentage would then get lowered! And dramatically it did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2009 And yes, I am getting frustrated with you Servant. It reminds me of trying to debate those who think homosexuality is condoned in the Bible. The intellectual honesty just doesn't seem to be there. Seems you've made up your mind and you just won't budge for nothin'. I understand your frustration, it is hard to try to get people with two totally opposing views to see eye to eye. I only hope to pull some TOWARD my position if not totally over the line of abstaining. Show what the bible does teach. I have tried my best to present my side in a logical and clear manner. I did recant my position about the wedding guest having to be drunk..I stand corrected..I actually had two theories on that and only presented one...but again they did not have to be drunk. Here is a concentration that might bring us closer in view of this scripture. Suppose the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic in that it was mixed wine, 20 parts water to 1 part wine. Would this give someone today presidents to drink regular wine? Until you can prove what he was drinking I think drinkers of wine today have no case for 'Jesus drank wine and so can I"...just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2009 Servant, In fact we should judge no one on the basis of eating and drinking (Col. 2:16) Yes I stand corrected..the next time I see someone drinking something that has poison in it I will just smile and give him a big God bless ya! Yes I am just teasing If I went with how you presented this I suppose I could not judge someone who was a drunk or over eater either. Yes, I guess I could because other scripture over rides this scripture like don't be drunk, so I guess if scripture teaches don't drink then I could judge. Its all depends where ones conviction lie..we get the same scripture on the clean and unclean issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think that the question or statement of "Jesus drank wine so I can" is a problem in that I think it shows someone who is trying to find a biblical excuse for using wine in a sinful way. Believe me nobody in Italy says Jesus drank wine so I can, that topic would not even come up as wine is simply part of lunch or supper and it is not seen as way to get drunk but simply a substance like any other food or drink which compliments the meal. That is how my family used wine and nobody has alcohol problems today or gets drunk. It simply is not a big deal. The bible scripture presented contains many many warnings against drunkenness and all Christians should head these warnings. But the bible contains no instructions for Christians to look upon any food or drink as sinful in and of itself. Frankly most of the twisting is really coming from your side,I usually try to go with the simple direct use of scripture, but what I see from your end is one obscure references taken out of context, the twisted logic on new versus old "wine" and grapefruit, nothing much there. The basic message of scripture is don't get drunk, clear and simple and this is scriptural. As far as dividing the world up into drinkers and non-drinkers this is how alcoholics view the world indeed, but it is not really true. Many many people drink a couple of times a year, or drink very very lightly; having a glass of wine at a wedding or a special occasion. It is almost like you view wine as the Jews view pork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Servant, In fact we should judge no one on the basis of eating and drinking (Col. 2:16) Yes I stand corrected..the next time I see someone drinking something that has poison in it I will just smile and give him a big God bless ya! Yes I am just teasing If I went with how you presented this I suppose I could not judge someone who was a drunk or over eater either. Yes, I guess I could because other scripture over rides this scripture like don't be drunk, so I guess if scripture teaches don't drink then I could judge. Its all depends where ones conviction lie..we get the same scripture on the clean and unclean issue. Actually we are not to judge period, because we are not righteous in ourselves. Were we righteous and holy, then we would be able to judge; and if we were righteous and holy then we would be God. nowehere in the Bible does God grant us the right or freedom to judge another person - whether believer or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2009 Show what the bible does teach.[/quote] I agree. Now where does it say to stay completely away from alcohol? Please, tell me. It doesn't. But YOU seem to maintain that God doesn't wanting us to touch alcohol ever. With zero scriptural justification. You're completely making up the rules. With 230 mentions of wine alone, he could have made the point once, don't you think? Do you agree that Mohammed did a better job of telling followers to completely abstain? Because Mohammed DID say it clearly. I don't know how many times, but all we need is once, right? Now surely God and Jesus and all of the Biblical writers are more efficient at giving us truth than Mohammed the pervert, right? So why is Mohammed's message clear and God's not? I'll tell you why it's not clear. Because its simply not there. You've read into it waaaay too much and performed a lot of mental gymnastics. I do think your heart may have been in the right place but I do disagree with you and I do find you stubborn on some points . And WHAT was Jesus drinking, if they called him a drunkard? What? This is getting ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2009 I am so disturbed by the portrayal of Christians as rigid, intolerant, judgemental loudmouths who follow a list of do's and don'ts. This is a huge problem we need to overcome. The above is the root of my frustration and Servant, I do believe your heart is in the right place, but Christians have a HUGE marketing problem to overcome. We really, really do and I want to do what I can to change non believers views of Christians. I'll have a beer, I'll have fun, I'll make fun of myself and let them know full well I aint perfect and I don't think I am. But I have self-control, morals, values, integrity and I have God and HE gives me strength and peace in times of turmoil. I don't want people to equate my relationship with God with some kind of list of rules like the Muslims have. I want to differentiate myself from all of that. Sorry if I come on too strong sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Man........... You say....... "You sidestepped the issue, so I will ask again. Are those who participate in communion, sinning?" First I would like you to address the context of Proverbs 23:31" Do not look on the wine when it is red swirls in the cup" Is this not a commandment not to even look upon alcoholic wine? (ie avoid it) Why are you avoiding the question? A simple yes or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetRain Posted May 14, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/07/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/07/1990 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think that drinking for a celebration in moderation is ok. Like how some catholic churches uses real wine for communion. Or using it for a wedding would be good. I'm not much of a drinker but I know that if I do get my first drink I think it should be because of a formal celebration. Then again some countries have wine as a dialy meal beverage not necessarily as somthing to satisfy taste. I think it depends on the motive for drinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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