artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 Your whole idea about this scripture giving credence to your belief based on the word "aged" and it simply has been made up. I didn't make it up. I checked on Biblegateway.com and many translation use the word "aged". We just have wine on lees...period. We have no aged wine here. It appeared to be a great argument it just did not hold up to scrutiny. I am quite sure that according to some scholars out there, the word 'aged' is appropriate, otherwise the word 'aged' would not be used. I just can't get past God serving up something He calls "A MOCKER" in the Millennium. (Pro 20:1) Do you think if you have one glass of wine you will become a mocker? Is that your experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 The next time you see red wine in a cup/glass repeat this COMMANDMENT and tell the person offering the cup " no thank you", I am not allowed to look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup. Its against my religion. It still doesn't say don't drink it. It says don't gaze upon it. I can't recall ever gazing upon red wine anyway, so I'm okay. Again, with 230 references to the word 'wine', why isn't there at least one, where it tells us not to drink it? And I can't imagine ever using the phrase "It is against my religion" That phrase is for Muslims, Hindus, Sihks etc, etc, etc. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 Servant: I asked Axxman to give me his translations on the following but maybe you would like to do that. Let me ask what you would pick for each of the following verses and why? Psalm 4:7 Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their wine increased. Wine or grape juice and why? Psalm 4:6-8 (in Context) Psalm 4 (Whole Chapter) Psalm 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. Wine or grape juice and why? Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Proverbs 31:5-7 (in Context) Proverbs 31 (Whole Chapter) Wine or grape juice and why? Ecclesiastes 2:3 I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life. Wine or grapejuice and why? Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Ecclesiastes 9:6-8 (in Context) Ecclesiastes 9 (Whole Chapter) Jeremiah 23:9 Wine or grapejuice and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 Servant A few more. Sorry, it wouldn't let me do so many quotes. Hosea 4:11 Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. Hosea 4:10-12 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter) Wine or grapejuice and why? Notice the word 'new"? Do you think this means grape juic can be bad? Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. Wine or grapejuice? Notice the word new? Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. Wine or grapejuice? Did you ever wonder, with about 230 references to the word wine why did God not make it obvious that if He wanted us not to touch it, why, with soooo many mentions, did he not even mention that we should abstain? Why not make it obvious like He did with John the Baptist or Samson? No one has commented on this although I've tried to make the point many times. Why is there no single outright admonishment against taking a little wine? Please... God had 230 chances to do this and didn't do it. Why do you think that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 NOTE TO ARTSY: that means you're welcome to have a glass of white wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 Definition of fruit of the lees. Lees: (tasting term). The heavy sediment in a wine fermenting in a vat or barrel and consisting of dead yeast cells and other solid matter such as grape skins, pulp and seeds. Exposure to the lees imparts flavor and body to a wine. Hence, aging a wine on the lees (sur lie), and stirring it occasionally, increases flavor and body. Wine is separated from the lees by the process of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murse32 Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 171 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/25/1977 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Servant A few more. Sorry, it wouldn't let me do so many quotes. Hosea 4:11 Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. Hosea 4:10-12 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter) Wine or grapejuice and why? Notice the word 'new"? Do you think this means grape juic can be bad? Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. Wine or grapejuice? Notice the word new? Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. Wine or grapejuice? Did you ever wonder, with about 230 references to the word wine why did God not make it obvious that if He wanted us not to touch it, why, with soooo many mentions, did he not even mention that we should abstain? Why not make it obvious like He did with John the Baptist or Samson? No one has commented on this although I've tried to make the point many times. Why is there no single outright admonishment against taking a little wine? Please... God had 230 chances to do this and didn't do it. Why do you think that is? ArtsyLady, I'm not sure where you stand on this topic and honestly, I'm not going back and reading 16 pages of people throwing out their opinions on if they think people should drink or not. But I will answer your question though using the bible. Juice or Wine? We will start with the word juice. The Hebrew word is 'Aciyc'. It basically means a juice from fruit, wine or new wine. It is used 5 times in the bible: Song of Songs 8:2, Is 49:26, Joel 1:5, Joel 3:18, and Amos 9:13. It's concordanance ref. number is (6071). Now the other word for wine, is 'Yayin'. The root word comes from the meaning to effervesce. This would have to do with the fermentation of the wine. This is the word used every other time in the old test. (140 times). Concord. ref number is (3196). I hope this answered your question and I wasn't just diving in ignorantly due to not reading the past posts. If I did, I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 Hi Murse: Are you saying that times the word juice is used to describe juice and the other references to wine (I had close to 230) the word wine really means wine? I'm not sure about this one. 26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob." I think it reads more like alcoholic wine. Joel 1:5 (New International Version) 5 Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips. This also reads to me like alcoholic wine. The other verses say 'new wine' but there are definitely other references to 'new wine' where, given the context, is obviously alcohol. It is good to know there really is a word for 'juice'. I've been told there isn't one, hense the word wine being used as juice, which I always thought to be bogus. I mean, even if there were not a word for juice, they did have the words "not fermented" and "without alcohol" which easily could have been inserted but were not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokemaughan Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 74 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 630 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/09/1990 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 I'm guessing the word original KJ "aged" is most appropriate, and that the newer translations inserted 'lees' to patronize people who were against wine. Dangerous statement, artsy... pointing fingers at translations with no working knowledge of Hebrew/Greek is a silly game to play... I've seen it tried before, and trust me it does not stand long... the original languages, just like ours, have words that can be used in many contexts, with many different meanings. The goal of the translator is to find the most appropriate and accurate word or phrase without using an idiom or word that wouldn't make sense in English. But concering your views on alcohol, I'm supportive otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2009 Have you read the description of 'lees'? It's just gross. Is it a 'dangerous game' to substitute the word 'aged' to 'lees'? The goal of the translator is to find the most appropriate and accurate word or phrase without using an idiom or word that wouldn't make sense in English. I didn't personally translate any of it. The scribes of King James did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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