Guest man Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I made it clear Adam is not equal to Jesus, and yet, Adam was sinless, clean, spotless, without guile, without blemish, and your challenge would be to find any passage at all giving the qualifications of a sacrifice that would go past 'sinless/spotless'... otherwise theres no way to pronounce Adam unacceptable that i can see 1 Corinthians 15 45 And so it is written, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2009 name='WolfBitn' date='Jul 28 2009, Heres what God demanded of a sacrifice 1. sinless/spotless When Eve fell in her transgression, Adam hadnt yet fallen. He was sinless... spotless... in a glorified situation without internal death working against him. You should use scripture to back up your thoughts concerning Adam's state being in a glorified state for one to be glorified they have to die first. Christ became our sacrifice because since ADAMS fall, death was pronounced over all mankind. Man therefore since adams fall couldnt live a sinless life. Therefore it was neccessary for Christ to do so... The Saviour was the plan of God since the foundation of the earth was made. Not once did or would Adam take the place of Christ had he not sinned. Hypotheticly... WHAT would have happened had Adam not ate fo the tree, fell on his face before God pleading for Eve? What if he had said FATHER PLEASE... i love her... you gave her to me... please dont destroy her, please take my life and restore her to you? There are no hypotheticly when it comes to the work in the garden it is very plan in what did happen in the garden of Eden. What would have kept Adam from being Eves sacrifice for sin, had he never ate of the tree and offered his life for mercy toward Eve? You are entertaining the thought that Adam could have been a sacrifice and redeemed Eve because before his fall he was sinless. In your train of thought in this regards as Adam could have been the sacrifice is desperately in error. Adam's blood could never redeem anybody in a fallen state or not in a fallen state the reason being is because Adam's blood had no redeeming power nor could it give us eternal life that life was only in the blood of Jesus who gave his own self own the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. Again comparing Christ with Adam in the way you've done is in error First Adam was not the Savior of this world and his blood would do nothing in saving Eve or any one else and this was before Adam fell. You are in error thinking that the blood of Adam could be the one spotless sacrifice. The second Adam was the Saviour of this world whose blood washed us white as snow. 1 Cor 15:21--For since by man came death by man came also the resurrection of the dead. Rom 5:12--Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned. John 11:25--Jesus said unto her I am the resurrection and the life he that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he shall live Rom 6:23--For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.91 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2009 By the way - What is the original pondering of the OP? Is it - what would have happened had Adam covered Eve rather than joining in sin with her? Or is it the point being argued about whether Adam could be a sacrifice for sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 Ok... a foreshadowing, BUT animal sacrifice was nonetheless accepted and this blood was NOT the blood of Christ, YET... it was accepted of God... Now... wasnt Adam himself a foreshadowing of Christ? The first of MANY? What were the requirements of the animal sacrifice for sin? ANIMALS were a temporary, imperfect sacrifice. The act of the sacrifice had to be done over and over again, because they were not the perfect sacrifice, only Jesus fits that bill. To put Adam on the level of the animals would mean that his sacrifice done over and over again. To make it a one time thing puts him on the same level as Jesus. but you do agree Adam qualified to be that sin offering then i take it man 1 Corinthians 15 45 And so it is written, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2009 This topic probably qualifies as one Paul characterized as "endless speculations". It is a moot point. Adam did sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.91 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2009 By the way - What is the original pondering of the OP? Is it - what would have happened had Adam covered Eve rather than joining in sin with her? Or is it the point being argued about whether Adam could be a sacrifice for sin? Actually both Nebula. I am asking based on a scenario of Adam not eating of the tree, asking what his state would have been and would he actually qualify as a sacrifice IF he fell on his face before God begging mercy for Eve and offering himself instead oK. Well, I gave an answer to the first question, and no one seemed to notice . . . so what are your thoughts, then? Re-post: Hypotheticly... WHAT would have happened had Adam not ate fo the tree, fell on his face before God pleading for Eve? What would have happened? God would not have become man. And we would not be able to have the kind of relationship with the Lord that we can have now by being joined into His death and resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 name='WolfBitn' date='Jul 28 2009, What would have kept Adam from being Eves sacrifice for sin, had he never ate of the tree and offered his life for mercy toward Eve? You are entertaining the thought that Adam could have been a sacrifice and redeemed Eve because before his fall he was sinless. In your train of thought in this regards as Adam could have been the sacrifice is desperately in error. Adam's blood could never redeem anybody in a fallen state or not in a fallen state the reason being is because Adam's blood had no redeeming power nor could it give us eternal life that life was only in the blood of Jesus who gave his own self own the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. Again comparing Christ with Adam in the way you've done is in error First Adam was not the Savior of this world and his blood would do nothing in saving Eve or any one else and this was before Adam fell. You are in error thinking that the blood of Adam could be the one spotless sacrifice. What was the requirement of Christ in order to be our sacrifice,? Do you agree Christ was our sacrifice because no human could? Dont we teach that ALL man is sinful therefore Christ couldnt even have an earthly Father? Isnt this why God had to sacrifice Himself for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 By the way - What is the original pondering of the OP? Is it - what would have happened had Adam covered Eve rather than joining in sin with her? Or is it the point being argued about whether Adam could be a sacrifice for sin? Actually both Nebula. I am asking based on a scenario of Adam not eating of the tree, asking what his state would have been and would he actually qualify as a sacrifice IF he fell on his face before God begging mercy for Eve and offering himself instead oK. Well, I gave an answer to the first question, and no one seemed to notice . . . so what are your thoughts, then? Re-post: Hypotheticly... WHAT would have happened had Adam not ate fo the tree, fell on his face before God pleading for Eve? What would have happened? God would not have become man. And we would not be able to have the kind of relationship with the Lord that we can have now by being joined into His death and resurrection. I agree it certainly would have changed a lot of things. As christians we often shake our heads for the things Adam brought upon us... often in frustration with the world around us. Maybe it was better for us all that he fell... On the other hand Christ had an exceptional relationship with Adam before the fall it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.91 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I agree it certainly would have changed a lot of things. As christians we often shake our heads for the things Adam brought upon us... often in frustration with the world around us. Maybe it was better for us all that he fell... On the other hand Christ had an exceptional relationship with Adam before the fall it seems. But did Adam have the Spirit of God dwelling within him the way we do? And although on the outset it may seem Adam's relationship with the Lord was better than what we have right now . . . how would you compare what Adam have to what we will have in Heaven and in the Age to come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 30, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 I agree it certainly would have changed a lot of things. As christians we often shake our heads for the things Adam brought upon us... often in frustration with the world around us. Maybe it was better for us all that he fell... On the other hand Christ had an exceptional relationship with Adam before the fall it seems. But did Adam have the Spirit of God dwelling within him the way we do? And although on the outset it may seem Adam's relationship with the Lord was better than what we have right now . . . how would you compare what Adam have to what we will have in Heaven and in the Age to come? Thats a good and fair point and question. Honestly i have no way to gauge it. I am certainly tempted to say the relationship we have now is superior, but i really cant commit to more than recognizing its prolly so. on the other hand wouldnt you agree friendships are stronger where there have never been betrayals? ...so you see my delimma lol... On this point i lean your way, but having no frame of referance as to what that relation was really like... i just have a hard time comitting to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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