Jeanette4 Posted July 20, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 13 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) This is where I fall every time - if we cannot rely on our own reason/logic/emotions........then, we are constantly treading water hoping to stay afloat..........I know the Holy Spirit is with me sometimes, and I have had some close contact with God, on just a very few occasions, but Heaven help me, it's not always enough.........at some point I have to depend on my human knowledge/reason/emotions, ya know. This is always a struggle for me......................I am responding to Nebula who says we should be skeptical of even our own reasoning........ Sorry to blow off the subject matter here..........that said, it is one of my favorite debates to watch and my comment is that whenever I see these atheisit/theist arguments, I notice that we as Christians don't have arguments as good as the other side. I am hard-pressed myself to make sene to my atheist husband.........we so need to do better............ I have only heard Islam being defined by "submission," not hope. Whatever about the other differences between Christianity and Islam, the theme of 'submission' seems to be common to both, at least as far as I can see. (I often hear people talking about giving themselves over to God and placing themselves completely at his mercy etc.) Unfortunately we lose our way a lot. But if you truly search the Scripture you will find that the main theme for following Jesus is love. The motivation behind what we say and do ought to be love. Following Jesus, seeking the Father, listening to the Holy Spirit, ought to be about love, not requirement. Placing ourselves at God's mercy is about surrendering our pride. (You know,"Pride comes before the fall"?) But in any event, my point was that until you've been brought to the place of complete brokenness, you really can't say how you will react or what or who you will turn to. I am a logic-minded person myself, and having been through such an experience, I can assure you that if/when you come to such a place, your logic will fail you. I think this is probably true. (As Hume put it, 'reason is the slave of the passions') What do you think follows from this? That you should regard your own reason with skepticism as well. Edited July 20, 2011 by Jeanette4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanette4 Posted July 20, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 13 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2011 Welllllllllllllllll, here's a little secret for ya, don't tell anyone I felt pretty comfortable on that side of the fence too, for a very long time, and as I say, the atheists provide good arguments..............it's just that if I have to CHOOSE what to believe, which is what Christians tell us, then I have to look at both hands and say, hmmmmmmmmmm, in this hand, I pretty much have NO hope, but here in this other hand, I have great hope........delusional, maybe, on the safe side, maybe.........I don't have all the answers, but I like believing in Jesus and Heaven (no hell)............. This is where I fall every time - if we cannot rely on our own reason/logic/emotions........then, we are constantly treading water hoping to stay afloat..........I know the Holy Spirit is with me sometimes, and I have had some close contact with God, on just a very few occasions, but Heaven help me, it's not always enough.........at some point I have to depend on my human knowledge/reason/emotions, ya know. This is always a struggle for me...................... Sorry to blow off the subject matter here..........that said, it is one of my favorite debates to watch and my comment is that whenever I see these atheisit/theist arguments, I notice that we as Christians don't have arguments as good as the other side. I am hard-pressed myself to make sene to my atheist husband.........we so need to do better............ I have only heard Islam being defined by "submission," not hope. Whatever about the other differences between Christianity and Islam, the theme of 'submission' seems to be common to both, at least as far as I can see. (I often hear people talking about giving themselves over to God and placing themselves completely at his mercy etc.) Unfortunately we lose our way a lot. But if you truly search the Scripture you will find that the main theme for following Jesus is love. The motivation behind what we say and do ought to be love. Following Jesus, seeking the Father, listening to the Holy Spirit, ought to be about love, not requirement. Placing ourselves at God's mercy is about surrendering our pride. (You know,"Pride comes before the fall"?) But in any event, my point was that until you've been brought to the place of complete brokenness, you really can't say how you will react or what or who you will turn to. I am a logic-minded person myself, and having been through such an experience, I can assure you that if/when you come to such a place, your logic will fail you. I think this is probably true. (As Hume put it, 'reason is the slave of the passions') What do you think follows from this? That you should regard your own reason with skepticism as well. I feel for you. I was also a Christian with an atheist husband (and sons and friends). Maybe I am weak, but I decided to jump the fence, and I feel much better now, a lot of things make much more sense and adapt perfectly with my scientific education. But this is just me, and every human is different. If improving your apologetics and keeping your faith improves your general well being, then this is ok. After all, what is more meaningful than keeping our happiness during the short time we have to walk on this earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted July 21, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2011 Welllllllllllllllll, here's a little secret for ya, don't tell anyone I felt pretty comfortable on that side of the fence too, for a very long time, and as I say, the atheists provide good arguments..............it's just that if I have to CHOOSE what to believe, which is what Christians tell us, then I have to look at both hands and say, hmmmmmmmmmm, in this hand, I pretty much have NO hope, but here in this other hand, I have great hope........delusional, maybe, on the safe side, maybe.........I don't have all the answers, but I like believing in Jesus and Heaven (no hell)............. You would need more than two hands to juggle the many myriad beliefs that are out there. Atheism and christianity are not the only options. Hinudism, islam, jainism, buddhism, taoism, wiccan and other forms of paganism are all available to choose from. And if you begin to dissect each and learn about the various denominations within each, we have different versions of thousands of gods/goddesses. I would see choosing one out of thousands as representing a very very slim hope (probability) of being correct, if indeed any god exists. Additionally, living one's life hoping for the rewards of an afterlife can be interpreted as living a meaningless life. What does anything you do matter in this life, when there is eternity in heaven? What should be done today can be done in your afterlife. It can be interpreted that atheists have the best approach to living life, as if every day may be your last. I know of many atheists who live their lives fully with this perspective. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanette4 Posted July 21, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 13 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2011 Yes, you are so right about the myriad of choices for sure; Jesus just makes the most sense to me, and believe me, I struggle even with this Faith..........particularly because of the whole hell notion and the Salvation of just a few........so yes, all ya'll, I lean towards Universalism..........I'm surprised not to see a forum on this topic.........maybe I will have to start one And oh yeah, I am not a pie in the sky type Christian. There is much worth in living your ilfe here on earth in the most productive way possible.........God doesn't expect us to ignore the needs of the earth and its people........ Welllllllllllllllll, here's a little secret for ya, don't tell anyone I felt pretty comfortable on that side of the fence too, for a very long time, and as I say, the atheists provide good arguments..............it's just that if I have to CHOOSE what to believe, which is what Christians tell us, then I have to look at both hands and say, hmmmmmmmmmm, in this hand, I pretty much have NO hope, but here in this other hand, I have great hope........delusional, maybe, on the safe side, maybe.........I don't have all the answers, but I like believing in Jesus and Heaven (no hell)............. You would need more than two hands to juggle the many myriad beliefs that are out there. Atheism and christianity are not the only options. Hinudism, islam, jainism, buddhism, taoism, wiccan and other forms of paganism are all available to choose from. And if you begin to dissect each and learn about the various denominations within each, we have different versions of thousands of gods/goddesses. I would see choosing one out of thousands as representing a very very slim hope (probability) of being correct, if indeed any god exists. Additionally, living one's life hoping for the rewards of an afterlife can be interpreted as living a meaningless life. What does anything you do matter in this life, when there is eternity in heaven? What should be done today can be done in your afterlife. It can be interpreted that atheists have the best approach to living life, as if every day may be your last. I know of many atheists who live their lives fully with this perspective. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh62 Posted July 21, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,683 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/14/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1962 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If we are nothing but chemicals and matter operating because of chemical reaction, then there is no real love... its just a chemical reaction making us feel funny things... an illusion. If we are nothing but part of an impersonal process, it doesnt matter who lives or dies or why... there is no tragedy, and the human race then becomes a nightmarish sociopathic mess. Atrocities are not evil, there is no real good This philosophy is Neitzche to perfection... and he died disease riddled and insane But what if there's more? Isn't that what our faith is all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakosis Posted August 4, 2011 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 290 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1959 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Additionally, living one's life hoping for the rewards of an afterlife can be interpreted as living a meaningless life. What does anything you do matter in this life, when there is eternity in heaven? What should be done today can be done in your afterlife. It can be interpreted that atheists have the best approach to living life, as if every day may be your last. I know of many atheists who live their lives fully with this perspective. Regards, UF I don't think anyone is in a place where they can judge the fullness and value of someone else's life. Though certainly they can judge the fullness and value of their own. Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Christian or not I think there is reason to study the words of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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