The Shema and the Trinity

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh i am about to address this last post, but before i do id like an answer to my straight forward quesiton

Do you or do you not read and write Hebrew fluantly?

Again, I am not the subject under discussion. The TOS states we are to debate the issue, not the person. I have told you all you need to know about me. My accuracy or lack of accuracy will be borne out in your ability to show that my usage of Hebrew is wrong by providing actual evidence to that end.

[WolfBitn]

So lets look at your reasoning and compare it with the Shema

You agree Jesus is God and a seperate entity from the Father and the Holy Spirit

No, I do not. I said they are separate persons, not separate entities. Stop putting words in my mouth.

a person is an entity is it not?

Do you agree the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are 3 individuals or not? You said you did, i want to be clear on this.

You agree the Father is God and an individual

You agree that the Holy Spirit is God and an individual... YET you suddenly change and say no they cant be ALL Gods AND individual... you sound very mixed up to me

I said nothing of the sort. You are trying to assign a position to me that I have not articulated or even implied. I said that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate persons but ONE singular God. They are not singular gods.

Yet you also said not only are they individuals they each are God

So answer this please... if Christ is God and an individual, would He be God if the Father did not exist? Would the Father be God if CHRIST didnt exist?

You even change the shema saying it states there is ONE eternal God

YHWH Elohim YHWH echad = The ETERNAL ONE (Singluar) is GODS (plural) united as ONE ETERNAL ONE (Singular)

No, you are the one trying to change the Shema into a polythestic statement. It says, Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. That is what it says. It does not say anything about "Gods." You are butchering the Scriptures and are adding to the Word of God. You are trying to pencil YOUR theology into the Bible.

Im changing it to nothing at all... i read each word in the hebrew, and i believe each word in the Hebrew as it is written... you however must reassign the plural where the singular YHWH is used, and then you have to turn the plural Elohim, into the singular Eloah to come up with your understanding

Or they had the same fear and bias as you... Messianic Hebrews do not recognize your theory or a plural greatness, but rather they understand it exactly as i have shown you, and ive given you messianic hebrew literature to prove this

The translators had no fear or bias. They simply knew what they were doing and certainly knew Hebrew better than you. I am not interested in what some off the wall Messianic "Hebrew" group thinks. I know the Hebrew language, and I know the difference between good Hebrew and junk theology.

These arent off the wall messianic hebrews... id be very careful in judgement, these are all MAINSTREAM hebrew messianics, AND they are your saved brothers believing Jesus to be their savior... AND they actually DO speak and write Hebrew... a direct quesiton youve avoided now after implying that you in fact did

It certainly IS pertinant... Do you actually know how to read and write Hebrew? If so are you fluent? Be careful youre about to be tested lol

No, I am not going to be tested. I am not on trial and I am not the subject of this debate. You will stick to debating the issue and not me. Any attempt to "test" me will simply be ignored, so don't waste your time.

So again you ignore the quesiton... thats fine then, dont claim hebrew scholarship if you cant back it up my friend

[nebula]

Wolf -

I am looking on-line for sources that give the meaning for the word Eloheinu, and they all say it means "our God", not "our Gods".

So I am not understanding where you are getting this meaning from?

[Guest shiloh357]

a person is an entity is it not?

No, it is not. Entity refers to being. It describes what you are. "Person" describes WHO you are.

Do you agree the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are 3 individuals or not? You said you did, i want to be clear on this.

I said they were three PERSONS. Stop trying to fudge my words. I said "PERSONS" not "individuals.

Yet you also said not only are they individuals they each are God

I said they are three distinct, separate persons, but ONE, singular God.

So answer this please... if Christ is God and an individual, would He be God if the Father did not exist? Would the Father be God if CHRIST didnt exist?

I don't know. I cannot explain the nuts and bolts of the trinity. All I know is based on the light given to us in Scripture. You are asking a question I cannot answer from the Scriptures, and I refuse to speculate on God's nature or essence apart from what is provided to us in Scripture.

These arent off the wall messianic hebrews... id be very careful in judgement, these are all MAINSTREAM hebrew messianics, AND they are your saved brothers believing Jesus to be their savior... AND they actually DO speak and write Hebrew... a direct quesiton youve avoided now after implying that you in fact did

Yeah, so far, all you have presented is a bunch of off the wall, junk theology. I don't really care what groups you quote from. The Hebrew says what it says and it does not support your view.

So again you ignore the quesiton... thats fine then, dont claim hebrew scholarship if you cant back it up my friend

First of all, I didnt claim Hebrew "scholarship." SEcondly, I have already proven my knowledge in Hebrew, and YOU cannot provide ONE shred of evidence to show I am wrong.

When you couldn't prove my Hebrew wrong, you turned your guns on me and are trying to discredit me. IF you could provide any evidence that what I have presented thus far is wrong, you would have done so by now. The fact that you can't disprove or discredit the Hebrew information I have provided vindicates me and my claim to know Hebrew. The proof of the truthfulness of my claim is found in your impotence to show I am wrong.

[WolfBitn]

Wolf -

I am looking on-line for sources that give the meaning for the word Eloheinu, and they all say it means "our God", not "our Gods".

So I am not understanding where you are getting this meaning from?

From the original Hebrew

Elohenyu it taken from the plural Elohim. Heres what messianic jews, who DO speak hebrw, have to say about it

From Lev Shalom www.levshalom.org/article_rj.html

"Eloheinu is the first-person plural possessive form of the Hebrew noun Elohim, which is translated "God" but literally means "our God." Yet strangely, this plural noun is virtually always translated as a singular."

From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm

"Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of

[Guest shiloh357]

Wolf -

I am looking on-line for sources that give the meaning for the word Eloheinu, and they all say it means "our God", not "our Gods".

So I am not understanding where you are getting this meaning from?

He is making it up and penciling it himself.

[WolfBitn]

Wolf -

I am looking on-line for sources that give the meaning for the word Eloheinu, and they all say it means "our God", not "our Gods".

So I am not understanding where you are getting this meaning from?

He is making it up and penciling it himself.

The answer is just before your post, just right over your head Shiloh

now... do you speak and write Hebrew as you stronly implied?

i am in serious doubt that you do as your short list of words shows you grasping for more that straw...

YOUR LIST

Panim = "Face"

Chayim = "Life"

Mayim = "Water."

Adonai = Lord

Rachamim = Mercy

Shamayim = Heaven

Mitzrayim = Egypt

Heres the corrected list

Panim = "FaceS"

Panuel = the singular form 'face'

Chayim = "Lives or LIFE in the plural, as in there were many forms of life in the valley.

chayah is the singular form

Mayim = "Water or WATERS"

shaqah = 'water' this is the ONLY straw you have to grasp my friend

Adonai = Lord (Note no "IM" suffex)

Rachamim = Mercies not mercy

racham (the singular) = mercy

Shamayim = Heavens not Heaven, and the Hebrews recognize 3 heavens just as we do today

Mitzrayim = "land of the Copts" ...NOT Egypt.

1) a country at the northeastern section of Africa, adjacent to Palestine, and through which the Nile flows

Egyptians

2) the inhabitants or natives of Egypt

[nebula]

Wolf - Shiloh's debate style may be rough around the edges, and not all agree with him on everything, but we pretty much trust his handling of the Hebrew and things pertaining to Israel.

You are presenting something that hasn't been presented before - at least not by anything I've seen (and I don't live in a bubble on these matters).

Besides, it seems odd for you to test him on his knowledge of Hebrew when he is fluent in the language, and you have made no claims of such?

[Guest shiloh357]

Still trying to show your lack of Hebrew knowledge, I see.

Heres the corrected list

QUOTE (me)

Panim = "FaceS"

Panuel = the singular form 'face'

Chayim = "Lives or LIFE in the plural, as in there were many forms of life in the valley.

chayah is the singular form

Mayim = "Water or WATERS"

shaqah = 'water' this is the ONLY straw you have to grasp my friend

Adonai = Lord (Note no "IM" suffex)

Rachamim = Mercies not mercy

racham (the singular) = mercy

Shamayim = Heavens not Heaven, and the Hebrews recognize 3 heavens just as we do today

Mitzrayim = "land of the Copts" ...NOT Egypt.

1) a country at the northeastern section of Africa, adjacent to Palestine, and through which the Nile flows

Egyptians

2) the inhabitants or natives of Egypt

I only presented those words as examples of how some words are "plural" in Hebrew but often get translated in the singular. The fact that they do appear the singular at times proves the presence of nonnumeric plurals. I did not say that they do not appear as numeric plurals or did not have a singular component, so I don't really see what it is you are trying to correct.

You are trying to disprove an argument I didn't raise.

[WolfBitn]

I only presented those words as examples of how some words are "plural" in Hebrew but often get translated in the singular. The fact that they do appear the singular at times proves the presence of nonnumeric plurals. I did not say that they do not appear as numeric plurals or did not have a singular component, so I don't really see what it is you are trying to correct.

You are trying to disprove an argument I didn't raise.

wrong... you even Translated Mitzrayim as Egypt, when it means land of the Copts

Now once more, youve strongly implied that you speak and write Hebrew... should i now assume this isnt so since you refuse giving an answer?? You made no hesitation when you implied it, why the hesitation now?