Catsmeow Posted July 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2004 As I was studying Revelations, I noticed a couple of "in your face" statements designated by the red printed quotations of the Lord Jesus Christ. In this case, the words He speaks to John, the Revelator is interesting and profound. Case in point: Revelation 2:1-3 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted July 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2004 Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. Proverbs. 16:6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. Psalm 97:10 You who love the Lord, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Not sure if this answers your q, but... False doctrines were rampant in the early days of the church. The people were warned repeatedly to watch out for false teachers. Everyone who you listen to for religious instruction, should be tested against the standard of the Word, and their personal character examined. This is my general opinion on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted July 11, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,124 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,852 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted July 11, 2004 Matthew Henry's commentary pretty much says what I think about this, and it spells all the words right. (I'm getting lazy too) It seems to me to be saying that the chruch should not tolerate open sin in the chruch as this one was doing. Thanks for the post, it speaks to me of my mouth at times, I'll be working on that. SE This is the part of the commentary that speaks of the verses you post Rev 2:18-29 2. A faithful reproof for what was amiss. This is not so directly charged upon the church itself as upon some wicked seducers who were among them; the church's fault was that she connived too much at them. (1.) These wicked seducers were compared to Jezebel, and called by her name. Jezebel was a persecutor of the prophets of the Lord, and a great patroness of idolaters and false prophets. The sin of these seducers was that they attempted to draw the servants of God into fornication, and to offer sacrifices to idols; they called themselves prophets, and so would claim a superior authority and regard to the ministers of the church. Two things aggravated the sin of these seducers, who, being one in their spirit and design, are spoken of as one person:- [1.] They made use of the name of God to oppose the truth of his doctrine and worship; this very much aggravated their sin. [2.] They abused the patience of God to harden themselves in their wickedness. God gave them space for repentance, but they repented not. Observe, First, Repentance is necessary to prevent a sinner's ruin. Secondly, Repentance requires time, a course of time, and time convenient; it is a great work, and a work of time. Thirdly, Where God gives space for repentance, he expects fruits meet for repentance. Fourthly, Where the space for repentance is lost, the sinner perishes with a double destruction. (2.) Now why should the wickedness of this Jezebel be charged upon the church of Thyatira? Because that church suffered her to seduce the people of that city. But how could the church help it? They had not, as a church, civil power to banish or imprison her; but they had ministerial power to censure and to excommunicate her: and it is probable that neglecting to use the power they had made them sharers in her sin. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted July 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 11, 2004 False doctrines were rampant in the early days of the church. I imagine false teachers and false doctrines are more rampant today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted July 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 11, 2004 Because that church suffered her to seduce the people of that city. But how could the church help it? They had not, as a church, civil power to banish or imprison her; but they had ministerial power to censure and to excommunicate her: and it is probable that neglecting to use the power they had made them sharers in her sin. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagz4Christ Posted July 14, 2004 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 511 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1975 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Because that church suffered her to seduce the people of that city. But how could the church help it? They had not, as a church, civil power to banish or imprison her; but they had ministerial power to censure and to excommunicate her: and it is probable that neglecting to use the power they had made them sharers in her sin. Now this sounds to me like people within the Church who know sexual immorality, (which is what is referred to here, along with idolatry) is wrong...tolerate it. Hey Cat. What Henry is saying here is no that the church was tolerating it on a legal or spiritual level up front; but that through thier lack of action to discipline the wayward parisioner -- excommunication or openly disapproving of what this person was doing -- it caused them to share in the sin that was being openly committed in the church. They make excuses for it and esteem it, giving it legal voice and approval. They even go so far as to give ordination within the Church for those openly practicing sexual immorality. If you would...read 1 Corinthians 5. It talks about just this very thing. I know about this because I just got done teaching a bible study on this very thing. It has HUGE implications. The question you asked at the beginning of this thread, "How much sin should the church tolerate?" The answer is quite simply.....absolutely none. Any open sin we see in the church should be dealt with swiftly and decidedly. Does that mean that everytime any one of us sins, we should excommunicate ourselves? By no means, for then there would be no church left! What we DO need to stand against and ANY and ALL OPEN sin we find in anyone that names the name of Christ. Noe, we all know that anyone that says they are a Christian ins't necessarily one. The real Christians are represented by thier works and attitudes. But that doesn't stop us from holding those that name the name of Christ accountable for thier actions. Matthew 18 lays out a brief description of the steps of church discipline. Various places throughout the New Testament go into greater detail and give examples of this being carried out. It is what made the church strong and vibrant in the early days of Christianity. Consequently, it is the lack of this that makes the church today crippled and without influence in todays society. I have the outline of my study for anyone that would like a bit of guidance through 1 Corinthians 5. It is in Works format...but if there is enough interest...I can load it to my website so everyone can read it. I have Scripture references and such in there too. I hope this hepled alittle bit with your answer Cat........ And it is nice to see you are still here and still kicking! ~serving Christ in faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Isaiah64v8 Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 As for the original question of tolerating sin - there are 2 standards. 1. Tolerating sin in unsaved people. We should not condone their sin, but we should accept them as sinners in need of God's grace. This is what Jesus did with the "tax collectors and sinners". We should be salt and light to them, as we were called to be. If they ask us if a certain behavior is sin, and the Bible says it is, say so, but do "everything in love". 2. Tolerating sin in saved people. Big difference. Under no circumstances should we tolerate it because it is destroying their fellowship with God and ruining their testimony. What does the Bible say? I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." (1 Cor 5:9-13) Jesus said: 15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (Matt 18:15-17) James 5:19-20: 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. So, if they are a Christian, we should correct them in love. If they are not a Christian, continue to be salt and light to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 16, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Now this sounds to me like people within the Church who know sexual immorality, (which is what is referred to here, along with idolatry) is wrong...tolerate it. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 16, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Jesus said: If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. You believe we only owe this courtesy to the saved? I know it says "your brother" (a fellow believer) but it seems to me that we can extend this principle to anyone. This isn't just about making sure the person has a chance to repent. It also helps someone like me to not feel too "holier than thou" over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts