Was Jesus killed?

[Smalcald]

No, if the whole thing was a parlor trick, something that Jesus easily did, indeed it would be suicide, or really not even suicide for that matter.

But that is the problem with this idea that Jesus was not really executed, that somehow it was "less" than a real execution and torture, it denies the humanity of Christ, it denies part of who He was and is, fully God, fully man. He felt just as horrible as any human would who was left at the hands of brutal murderers all alone and abandoned. That is part of the passion of Christ, we must not take away from that.

I think this may be part of a movement to sanitize the cross, to sanitize and rehabilitate the people who killed Jesus. Look at all of the heretical talk we have now about Judas, how since Jesus wanted to die, Judas was really a good guy for helping Him do it.

[Guest shiloh357]

No, the cross DID kill Jesus, He suffered real pain, and He was really executed. If those things did not happen then there would be no true resurrection and no true defeat of death.

No the cross did not kill Jesus. Jesus died on the cross when He wanted to die. Jesus explicitly claimed that No one was going to take His life, and that it was something He was laying down of His own volition. If Jesus death was ANYTHING other than a voluntary sacrifice, then salvation did not come from it. Jesus was not a martyr, nor was He "executed." The Bible does not picture it that way. If Jesus' death was an execution, then His death was the product of man's energy and effort, not the product of God's sovereignty.

This type of Islamic heresy is simply not true. Islam believes that God could never be killed, that His Prophet and Son Jesus could never be killed and thus ascended to heaven without the Cross.

A little more accuracy is needed here. Islam teaches that Jesus did not DIE. They do not teach that Jesus could not be killed, but that His death is a lie/myth.

Now I know people are not going that far here, but this idea that His execution was not a real or true execution is on that path.

Not even close. You realy don't have a clear grasp on this.

Jesus is the author of true humility, His execution was indeed pre-ordained, but His humanity, His being fully human at the same time as being fully God, required that He suffer and die as a common criminal, no better and no less real, it was a true execution. Which is why Christ indeed cried out that the cup be taken from Him, which is why He cried out why have you forsaken me. This was not some sort of Parlor trick that an almighty God set up, it was a real human being tortured and killed by a filthy mob of killers and haters (all of us) ; let us not sanitize the cross.

That is not what the Bible says. Your statements reflect an erroneous human opinion, but do not reflect the truth of Scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus was not killed. Abusa is correct.

Jesus was in total control the entire time. Certain things had to be done to be in line with prophecy.

I just finished a study entitled " The Cross ", and in this study it is shown that Jesus was not killed.

Now the Romans and Pharisee's may have thought they were killing Him, but they were not.

Our Lord Jesus did not lose His life at the hands of any human, but rather He gave up His life after all had been fulfilled.

So in a way he committed suicide?

... no, He allowed them to take His life. I don't read where He nailed Himself to the cross, do you?

He allowed them to kill him, so he was killed..... other than that you would have to say he committed suicide...... and I can't go there. He was killed.

That is just not true. Read your Bible. Jesus gave His life as a sacrifice for sin. His life was not taken from Him.

So you are saying that the priest that cuts the throat of the sheep being sacrificed is not killing them????

There is a difference. Jesus was in complete control of the events surrounding His death. He decided when He would be crucified and He decided the hour He would die. He was killed, murdered, executed, martyred or anything else of similar ilk. If Jesus death was anything but a willling sacrifice for sin, then it cannot affect salvation for mankind. Jesus explicity taught that He was laying His life down. The allusion to the lamb only extends so far.

[Guest shiloh357]

But that is the problem with this idea that Jesus was not really executed, that somehow it was "less" than a real execution and torture, it denies the humanity of Christ, it denies part of who He was and is, fully God, fully man.

No, it doesn't. It magnifies His Deity. If Jesus was "executed" then He was liar. Execution requires that man take the life of man. Jesus said no one takes His life from Him. So if we go with what you think, Jesus was liar. But if we believe the Bible which says Jesus was not executed or killed by man, then Jesus word is true.

[Smalcald]

So really the whole thing was not that bad then for Jesus? Kind of a crucifixion "lite" idea?

Sorry, the bible does not say that.

The bible shows a real execution, are you saying that Jesus was not really executed and tortured? Maybe He didn't really die then? I mean maybe the death was a sort of quasi death since it was God who died?

No, Jesus was, tortured, executed died and was buried at least that is what scripture directly says.

[Guest shiloh357]

So really the whole thing was not that bad then for Jesus? Kind of a crucifixion "lite" idea?

No, that is not what I said. What I am saying is that Jesus died of His own will, and not at the will of man. Man did not "kill" Jesus in the absolute sense. The Bible does not exonerate those took part in crucifying Him, but Jesus and Jesus alone was sovereign over His own death. He laid down His Life. No one killed Him or took His life from Him.

Sorry, the bible does not say that.

Maybe you need to read what is being said instead of reacting to what you think others are saying: It's called "READING COMPREHENSION" Try it some time.

The bible shows a real execution, are you saying that Jesus was not really executed and tortured?

No, the Bible shows a real sacrfrifice. No one could kill Jesus. He even said so.

Maybe He didn't really die then? I mean maybe the death was a sort of quasi death since it was God who died?

Are you really that obtuse??? We have not said that Jesus death was not genuine. You really need to get a clue.

No, Jesus was, tortured, executed died and was buried at least that is what scripture directly says.

What it says is that Jesus died on the cross as a voluntary sacrifice for sin. READ your Bible for once.

[Smalcald]

No, if the whole thing was a parlor trick, something that Jesus easily did, indeed it would be suicide, or really not even suicide for that matter.

But that is the problem with this idea that Jesus was not really executed, that somehow it was "less" than a real execution and torture, it denies the humanity of Christ, it denies part of who He was and is, fully God, fully man. He felt just as horrible as any human would who was left at the hands of brutal murderers all alone and abandoned. That is part of the passion of Christ, we must not take away from that.

i don't think anyone's saying Jesus wasn't tortured and didn't suffer real pain. that's not the dispute. being on the cross was definately painful for Jesus, and Jesus' body actually did die. but He gave up His life--no one took it from him--not the romans and not the cross. that's the issue. if the cross had actually killed Him, how could He "give up the ghost" like the Bible says He did? if the cross killed Him, how could He say that no one takes His life from Him? if Jesus "allowed" Himself to be killed, He would be allowing someone to take His life.

it's kind of like these two case scenarios:

case one. a gentleman is walking down the street. a "bad guy" comes along, beats him up, and steals his money.

case two. a gentleman is walking down the street. a "bad guy" comes along, beats him up, and the gentleman hands the bad guy his money.

the result in both cases is the same: the gentleman is beaten up and his money is gone. but in case one, his money was stolen (which would be Jesus being killed); in case two, he willingly gave it (like Jesus willingly giving up His life).

in a way it is semantics, but in another way it's not.

Well I would say that the cases are not those at all.

case one. a gentleman is walking down the street, he knows a real bad guy is coming but knows he must face the bad guy and walks toward the bad guy anyway and indeed gets his money stolen.

case two. a gentleman has his friend fake up a robbery and then gives him his money and says see I was robbed.

You see it was a true execution and if we deny that, then we deny who Christ was, it was not a fake, it was not merely "painful" it was horrible.

Now indeed as Christ said very directly to the people at the trail that you would have no power over me at all if I did not let you have power. But this is very different from saying that He was not really killed.

It is probably semantics, I am just saying that we cannot back away from the truth of His real execution, death and suffering.

[logos7]

Yes He was killed, "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priest and scribes, and be KILLED, and raised again the third day." (Matthew 16:21 also Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:33-34; Luke 9:22) These are just from the Gospels, Botz gave verses from Acts.

Yes Jesus gave His life away but make no mistake He was killed. I think, He had outsmarted the devil and his angels, 'Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." I Corinthians 2:8

We are told in Revelation 5:6,9, that Christ was slain. The first Messianic Prophecy states that Jesus heel would be bruised by the devil, while Jesus by His death (bruised heel) would destroy the devil bruising his head(Genesis 3:15) Thank God Jesus was killed because I live eternally through His death and resurrection.

Paul writes concerning the Jews "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:" I Thessalonians 2:15 So yes Jesus was killed, in the like manner we are to suspect persecution from our own country (I Thessalonians 2:14).

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes He was killed, "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priest and scribes, and be KILLED, and raised again the third day." (Matthew 16:21 also Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:33-34; Luke 9:22) These are just from the Gospels, Botz gave verses from Acts.

Yes, and from an observational standpoint, that is exactly what happened. However, the Bible is explicit that man did not take Jesus's life from Him. Man had no power over Jesus. He alone was sovereign over his own death. Men were simply the instruments by which Jesus gave His life. On a much deeper level, Jesus death was not an execution, a murder, or whatever. It was a sacrifice.

[Smalcald]

So really the whole thing was not that bad then for Jesus? Kind of a crucifixion "lite" idea?

No, that is not what I said. What I am saying is that Jesus died of His own will, and not at the will of man. Man did not "kill" Jesus in the absolute sense. The Bible does not exonerate those took part in crucifying Him, but Jesus and Jesus alone was sovereign over His own death. He laid down His Life. No one killed Him or took His life from Him.

Sorry, the bible does not say that.

Maybe you need to read what is being said instead of reacting to what you think others are saying: It's called "READING COMPREHENSION" Try it some time.

The bible shows a real execution, are you saying that Jesus was not really executed and tortured?

No, the Bible shows a real sacrfrifice. No one could kill Jesus. He even said so.

Maybe He didn't really die then? I mean maybe the death was a sort of quasi death since it was God who died?

Are you really that obtuse??? We have not said that Jesus death was not genuine. You really need to get a clue.

No, Jesus was, tortured, executed died and was buried at least that is what scripture directly says.

What it says is that Jesus died on the cross as a voluntary sacrifice for sin. READ your Bible for once.

No it says that Jesus was crucified, and that execution was real. I do read the bible in a more literal way I have to admit, but it usually works better that way, safer.

I have never said that Jesus did not let them kill Him, indeed He did allow it to happen, but scripture says it really did happen, allowing something to happen as Christ did, does not mean the execution did not happen.

The slippery slope of claiming it was not an execution is that we start to go down the path that it was then not a true sacrifice at all, that it you know was not really that bad, it denies the perfect humanity of Christ. Then we end up with the Islamic idea that God would never allow His Son to be humiliated in that way and we lose the whole passion of Christ.