leoxiii Posted October 18, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 512 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/30/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1955 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I specifically asked for ANYONE to show me ONE biblical example of a NT Christian who decided they no longer wanted to remain a Christian and completely disowned their faith on purpose. But I think that is our disagreement. The people that we have shown, Simon for one, did disown their faith on purpose. Simon Magnus is not recorded as saying, "I no longer want to be Christian." If you have documentation to show otherwise provide it. Simon was simply decieved and misguided. He was like many immature believers who still have baggage from their previous sinful life that they need to deal with. Consider the alternative, are you claiming that Christ left Simon, if that were the case then we can indeed "lose" our faith and have it be totally out of our free will, and this I do disagree with as I think scripture is clear that Christ will never walk away from us. I never made the case that Jesus walked away from Simon. But there is no evidence that Simon no longer wanted to be a Christian. All we have record of is that Simon was severely rebuked by Peter. The Bible does not say Simon was no longer a Christian. Well that is the OSAS doctrine, Simon is fine, he is a Christian. You are correct the bible does not say he is no longer a Christian, he asks Peter to pray for him as Peter told him that he would perish. That is ridiculous. If Simon believed and he was a Christian, then Peter was in egregious error for telling him he would perish. (I am sure Paul withstood Peter to his face on this one as well but Luke forgot to write it down.) Also, why would he ask for Peter's prayers when Peter was in such obvious error and those prayers were needed for unbelievers, not believers like Simon 110% secure in their salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted October 18, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2009 That my friend, is just as much your fault (if not more so), as it is your youth pastor. You failed to read and understand your Bible. Your pastor failed to impress upon you (or you failed to hear) what salvation really means, and what is required of you in order to know for sure that you are saved. Your absolutely right it was just as much my fault as it was the church that taught it.. Its my fault for not seeking out the truth and believing whatever my church/Pastor feed me rather then finding out what the bible says...but what do you expect from a young teenager and an unbeliever at the time. Later on in life I realized that I was being lied to and I left and sought out church's and believers who didn't fall for such OSAS lies. The whole time that I was going to these OSAS church, I knew down in my heart that there was something wrong with this doctrine and I knew that it didn't jive with what Jesus taught. So, no one in your church or youth group ever told you to read and study the Word daily? Or did you just ignore it. I'm not trying to make this personal with you Jedi, but to make the point that if one stays in the Word, and compares what they are taught against the Word, the Holy Spirit ensures that one is not deceived. hmmm....did you even read my post? How could I've ignored it...if I realized it and left. How do you know it wasn't the Holy Spirit showing me the truth? The Holy Spirit will guide you into truth, but he will not force feed you the truth. You can choose to follow the Holy Spirits guidance or ignore it as many do. Yes it did take a few years for me to realize that it was not inline with God's Word. I was around 18 when I stopped going to OSAS churches. Its was a little hard to break away from that teaching being that I was raised to believe that by my parents, church, and my grandfather who was the pastor. G Day mate. I'm with you here. Old knowledge is hard to loose, especially when generations of family, teachers, and pastors drum it into us throughout our youth. Haz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker100 Posted October 18, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 137 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2009 One can certainly lose one's salvation. Salvation is a state of union between man and God through Christ. If we decide not to live our lives for God we end the union and thus end the salvation. God does not end one's free will. Thus we can always lose our salvation. Thus we must walk with care as we serve the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I specifically asked for ANYONE to show me ONE biblical example of a NT Christian who decided they no longer wanted to remain a Christian and completely disowned their faith on purpose. But I think that is our disagreement. The people that we have shown, Simon for one, did disown their faith on purpose. Simon Magnus is not recorded as saying, "I no longer want to be Christian." If you have documentation to show otherwise provide it. Simon was simply decieved and misguided. He was like many immature believers who still have baggage from their previous sinful life that they need to deal with. Consider the alternative, are you claiming that Christ left Simon, if that were the case then we can indeed "lose" our faith and have it be totally out of our free will, and this I do disagree with as I think scripture is clear that Christ will never walk away from us. I never made the case that Jesus walked away from Simon. But there is no evidence that Simon no longer wanted to be a Christian. All we have record of is that Simon was severely rebuked by Peter. The Bible does not say Simon was no longer a Christian. Well that is the OSAS doctrine, Simon is fine, he is a Christian. You are correct the bible does not say he is no longer a Christian, he asks Peter to pray for him as Peter told him that he would perish. Again, there is no such thing as OSAS doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 19, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted October 19, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2009 Okay. lol...yeah it may not exist but that doesnt mean it isnt being taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 19, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 19, 2009 What are you going to do? I mean I am sure in Shilo's particular congregation it may NOT be taught at all, but you know just go down the street, it is like herding frogs trying to pin down doctrine anyway, we just say well WE don't believe that so there you go. For me the decisions that we make by our free will show what we believe, and there are cases of people who believed at some point in their life but did in the end perish because as scripture shows the cares of the world choked their faith out, it was not some sort of one time decision to reject their faith. It was a life of living for the flesh that slowly showed that their faith was draining away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Okay. lol...yeah it may not exist but that doesnt mean it isnt being taught. You misunderstand. The Doctrine is called "Eternal Security." OSAS is the pervision of it made up by people like you who don't understand Eternal Security and since you are hell bent on not allowing facts to get in the way of your misperceptions, you spinning a bunch of misconceptions about Eternal Security. Calling it OSAS only further distorts what Eternal Secuirty teaches. Eternal Security does not address the issue of "living in sin." Eternal Security does not contain the idea that a person can live anyway they want and still remain saved. Rather Eternal Security is predicated on the NT teaching that a REAL Christian is a new creation in Christ. It is predicated on Salvation as an inward trasnsformation. That transformation precludes the possibility of "living in sin as much as you want." All Etneral Security addresses is the security of the believer. It simply affirms that a Christian can have full assurance that his sin is forgiven that he has been sealed unto the day of redemption. The fact that you are trying to argue against a made up doctrine that does not exist, demonstrates that not only do you have a very shallow understanding of the nature of salvation, but you really don't know what you are talking about where doctrine is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 What are you going to do? I mean I am sure in Shilo's particular congregation it may NOT be taught at all, but you know just go down the street, it is like herding frogs trying to pin down doctrine anyway, we just say well WE don't believe that so there you go. My point is that OSAS is not a doctrine in any church, anywhere. It doesn't exist in any book on doctrine. It is a made up "doctrine" that has no place in established church doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 What are you going to do? I mean I am sure in Shilo's particular congregation it may NOT be taught at all, but you know just go down the street, it is like herding frogs trying to pin down doctrine anyway, we just say well WE don't believe that so there you go. My point is that OSAS is not a doctrine in any church, anywhere. It doesn't exist in any book on doctrine. It is a made up "doctrine" that has no place in established church doctrine. Yes This is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is found in his Son. The person who has the Son has this life. The person who doesn't have the Son of God doesn't have this life. I've written this to those who believe in the Son of God so that they will know that they have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13 (GWT) Yes Yes Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26 (KJV) Yes Yes Yes I can guarantee this truth: Every believer has eternal life. John 6:47 (GWT) No No No Be careful, brothers and sisters, that none of you ever develop a wicked, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 (GWT) No No See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8 (NIV) No .... Did God really say .... Genesis 3:1 (GWT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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